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Knight of the Laughing Tree


Anvik

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I was pretty sure I always thought it was Lyanna so I had to go and look up what I wrote in my first time reader blog,

Jojen tells a nice story of Arya the first, aka Lyanna. Very little doubt that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Perhaps when Rheagar was first sent to find the Knight of the laughing Tree, that was he and Lyanna first kindled a romance. I’m pretty firmly in the camp that they did have mutual feelings for one another. The only time I’ve heard anything bad about Reagar was basically from Robert. I also would guess this was the same tourney when Reagar won, he gave Lyanna the queen of beauty’s laurel.

I guess it wasn't as obvious to some as I thought. I agree if it isn't Lyanna then the telling of the story in the first place is kind of a waste of time in the book. It also makes all the little forshadowing tidbits we have received since then to be out of place. The main point against it being Lyanna is the "booming voice" but then again this is a retelling of the story and who is to say it is literal anyway. I mean when people get disembowled, and Martin describes it as blue snakes being ripped out of them, you understand his meaning is their intestines and not actuall reptiles.

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When I first read the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, I immediately assumed it was Lyanna. I also immediately assumed the author placed the story in the novel for us to assume that it was Lyanna. IMO, it's painfully obvious, especially when it is said that Aerys sent Rhaegar to find the mystery knight. It seems to be a set-up for the Rhaegar and Lyanna love story.

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When I first read the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, I immediately assumed it was Lyanna. I also immediately assumed the author placed the story in the novel for us to assume that it was Lyanna. IMO, it's painfully obvious, especially when it is said that Aerys sent Rhaegar to find the mystery knight. It seems to be a set-up for the Rhaegar and Lyanna love story.

Just explain to me how Rhaegar "found" Lyanna? If the Mystery Knight did indeed flee to avoid being unmaksed then Rhaegar might very well find him whoever he might be.

But if it is Lyanna as people find think is obvious he never would have found her becuse he wouldn't have been looking for a High Lord's daughter walking round Harrnhal dressed in a Ball Gown.

It is at the feast after the KOLT wins the three jousts that Aerys encourages people to unmask him. The next day he is nowhere to be found and people go looking for him.

The day after the jousts Lyanna would be in Harrenhall in a dress as befitting her station. No one would be looking for her so she would not need to "flee".

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Just explain to me how Rhaegar "found" Lyanna?

He may have deduced it immediately, or figured it out when he saw Lyanna at the feast later that night. Or he may very well have had a vision of it. I mean, he had to have found her shield somehow, right? He didn't just happen upon it, did he?

The day after the jousts Lyanna would be in Harrenhall in a dress as befitting her station. No one would be looking for her so she would not need to "flee".

What is this "fleeing" you keep referring to?

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Just explain to me how Rhaegar "found" Lyanna? If the Mystery Knight did indeed flee to avoid being unmaksed then Rhaegar might very well find him whoever he might be.

But if it is Lyanna as people find think is obvious he never would have found her becuse he wouldn't have been looking for a High Lord's daughter walking round Harrnhal dressed in a Ball Gown.

It is at the feast after the KOLT wins the three jousts that Aerys encourages people to unmask him. The next day he is nowhere to be found and people go looking for him.

The day after the jousts Lyanna would be in Harrenhall in a dress as befitting her station. No one would be looking for her so she would not need to "flee".

Um...what Dragonfish and kg1982 said...

It's Lyanna. A compelling case cannot be made for anyone else.

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I find it hard to beleive that a woman defeated three of the last five contenders.

That is because she didn't. See below.

I mean they had to be really good to make it to the top five.

No, they did not. See below.

Even if Lyanna was a good rider and had some sword training it's irreleventant to jousting.

GRRM's in-story experts disagree with you quite explicitly. Horsemanship is 75% of jousting and Lyanna was one of the best riders around, described as 'half a horse' and noted as the standard to compare against in the north by experts.

Also the booming voice.... it would be hilarious hearing her mimicing a man's voice.

She may not even have to. See Brienne being mistaken for a man (while talking) until she raises her helm. The booming voice probably merely shows the KotLT is making some effort to disguise her voice. She is probably also deliberately lowering it's tone.

The voice thing simply cannot be used as evidence against Lyanna being KotLT.

Rhaegar, Barristan and the three defeated were the last five standing.

Nope. See below.

There were 5 champion pavilions, it is stated. And the next morning only 2 remained because the KOTLT was vanished. The other 3 were defeated. Do I miss something?

Yes, quite a lot. This is the 'below'...

The summary is that the KotLT rode to list only 3 times (very few) and fought knights of lesser quality. The 5 'champion' pavilions are type 4 champions, and temporary at that.

1. a person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place: the heavyweight boxing champion.

vs

4. a person who fights for or defends any person or cause: a champion of the oppressed.

There were 5 at the end of day 2 because the KotLT fought right at the end of the day and defeated three of the temporary champions, so their pavilions had not been removed yet. There are ony two the next morning because the three defeated knights remove their pavilions and whoever defeated them puts up theirs in their place, but the KotLT had no pavilion and did not reappear - having achieved her aim and now being threatened by the King (and Robert Baratheon to boot!)

IMO it's as well supported as any, whether that's poorly or not take your pick.

Thats because you've got every fact used to support your opinion wrong. So it is not as well supported as any. So far, your opinion that the KotLT cannot be Lyanna is not supported at all, though the opinion that Benjen is KotLT is supported in as much as he cannot be ruled out, though little or nothing actually points to him.

Jousting may not be just about the physical strenght but it counts.
I don't think any amount of talent could defeat the Mountain and to assume that a 15 year old girl defeated not one but three men only by pure talent I find it far fetched.

Since the expert (Jaime) tells us 75% is horsemanship, we have left 25% to account for between skill, experience, stamina and strength. Frankly I'll give strength less than 5%, though if all other things are equal it could obviously be the deciding factor. And if it is really extreme (like the Mountain) then that may stretch other factors.

What matters though, is we have an expert horseman with unknown skill and experience (she could easily have practiced riding at rings, which is a primary lancing skill, a lot as it would be easy to do and a fun way for her to challenge her brothers) but probably relatively very low strength vs 3 non-notable competitors who can be assumed to have a lot less horsemanship but a lot more strength and probably more experience. Stamina is unlikley to be a major factor since KotLT rode only 3 times.

Its pretty easy to see, when you break it down like that, that she could have easily beaten the 3 non-entities that were temporary champion. Not necessarily every time, not necessarily over a long period, but for GRRM's story-telling purposes (and note the very lucky coincidence that sees those three lesser knights all champion at the same time), nothing particularly amazing.

I can't be certain but my best guess among the people I know that are present at the tourney is Benjen. But I don't believe that my lack of knowledge counts as argument in favour of Lyanna.

It doesn't favour Lyanna. But when you get all the facts you use to support your opinion that it cannot be her wrong, it certainly shreds the value of said opinion.

You are welcome to your opinion but if you want to back it up with facts, expect the facts to have to stand scrutiny. So far they have not.

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My theory is Lyanna was planning to joust the next day, but decided against it after King Crazy called TKOTLT an enemy. She went out to hide the shield and met Rhaegar.

Why would she want to joust the next day? She has exactly and precisely completed her purpose. If she just wanted to joust in general, why wait untiil almost dark on the second day and why only, and precisely, those three knights? And why the instruction to teach their squires honour in place of the usual ransom (the winner usually keeps the loser kit, which is very expensive)?

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Just explain to me how Rhaegar "found" Lyanna? If the Mystery Knight did indeed flee to avoid being unmaksed then Rhaegar might very well find him whoever he might be.

There is no need to explain how he found her (but see the end of this post anyway). He said he did not. He probably did - merely because its a good lead in toward his suddenly giving this unknown northern girl the crown of Love and Beauty.

There is no fleeing. The KotLT simply went away that night, presumably to prepare for the next day exactly the same way (and place) that 'he' had prepared for that day. And never re-appeared the next morning. All that takes is the same quiet, unnoticed place to disarm as 'he' armed before appearing and then simply not preparing in the morning.

But if it is Lyanna as people find think is obvious he never would have found her becuse he wouldn't have been looking for a High Lord's daughter walking round Harrnhal dressed in a Ball Gown.

It is at the feast after the KOLT wins the three jousts that Aerys encourages people to unmask him. The next day he is nowhere to be found and people go looking for him.

The day after the jousts Lyanna would be in Harrenhall in a dress as befitting her station. No one would be looking for her so she would not need to "flee".

There is no 'flee'. At best there is the assumption of a flee because "he was here yesterday and is not today, he must have fled when the king declared him no friend and demanded he be unmasked" - which is later that night remember.

And how is Lyanna walking around in a dress different from a man or boy walking around in tunic and hose, or robe, or whatever? Its not.

Possibly (probably this or something similar) Rhaegar found the shield or recognised the horse or some bits of armour in or around the Stark pavilions or encampment and deduced who the KotLT was. Probably after interrogating the three knight's squires and finding out about Lyanna chasing them off the night before.

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He may have deduced it immediately, or figured it out when he saw Lyanna at the feast later that night. Or he may very well have had a vision of it. I mean, he had to have found her shield somehow, right? He didn't just happen upon it, did he?

What is this "fleeing" you keep referring to?

What, he may have deduced it immediately? And no one else had a clue that it was a young girl, daughter of one of the greatest houses in the Realm. Seems far from obvious to me.

Which is why he would need to find her in armour and lugging that shield around and "unmask" her. And that seems pretty preposterous to me as the three squires were defeated on the previous day by our mystery knight so why would they be dressed up and lurking around the next day. I don't think there was a tent to tent search of pavillions, demanding everyone including Lyanna open up all her chests and so forth.

The fleeing I am referring to is actually the view in post 63, one theory about how they might have met.

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My theory is Lyanna was planning to joust the next day, but decided against it after King Crazy called TKOTLT an enemy. She went out to hide the shield and met Rhaegar.

Uh, or left it in a tent under a drape, covered it with a cloth, had someone paint over it. The last thing a woman at a medieval joust would do is walk around with a shield because she has no business touching one and everyone knows that.

Why the hell would the KOLT joust the next day? Misison has been accomplished. And let's say it is Lyanna and she wins the whole Tourney and then as Champion takes off her helm in front of Aerys to receive the reward.... Brienne as warrior maid is enough for me. Lyanna was an excellent rider, yes, but that's all we got.

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What, he may have deduced it immediately? And no one else had a clue that it was a young girl, daughter of one of the greatest houses in the Realm. Seems far from obvious to me.

Which is why he would need to find her in armour and lugging that shield around and "unmask" her. And that seems pretty preposterous to me as the three squires were defeated on the previous day by our mystery knight so why would they be dressed up and lurking around the next day. I don't think there was a tent to tent search of pavillions, demanding everyone including Lyanna open up all her chests and so forth.

It doesn't matter whether they were searching the pavilions or not at the time. Getting rid of the shield would still have been a good idea, in case the king ever did decide to have all the pavilions searched. It's a simple precaution.

Uh, or left it in a tent under a drape, covered it with a cloth, had someone paint over it. The last thing a woman at a medieval joust would do is walk around with a shield because she has no business touching one and everyone knows that.

Well, yeah, no one is arguing she'd walk around in broad daylight with the thing. And any person she had paint over it could inform on her to the king.

Why the hell would the KOLT joust the next day? Misison has been accomplished. And let's say it is Lyanna and she wins the whole Tourney and then as Champion takes off her helm in front of Aerys to receive the reward.... Brienne as warrior maid is enough for me. Lyanna was an excellent rider, yes, but that's all we got.

Uh, sorry, but Lyanna is already the warrior maid you think we have enough of. She was skilled enough with swordfighting to defeat three squires with nothing but a tourney sword. She is not "just an excellent rider", and I don't know how you could possibly think so. Her fiery personality and skill at arms already played a role in the KotLT story, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't play a further role, especially when that role ties so well into the larger story.

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Why would she want to joust the next day? She has exactly and precisely completed her purpose. If she just wanted to joust in general, why wait untiil almost dark on the second day and why only, and precisely, those three knights? And why the instruction to teach their squires honour in place of the usual ransom (the winner usually keeps the loser kit, which is very expensive)?

Defending Howland's honor got Lya into the tourney, but this had the side effect of being great fun for Lya... Original recipe Arya would have definitely loved every minute of being able to compete.

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It's definitely Lyanna IMO.

I'm not sure whether GRRM will conclusively announce it in the remaining books, but the 'evidence' so far seems pretty strong that it was Lyanna.

Methinks that it is a small mystery similar to Manderlay's pie making techniques.

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Uh, sorry, but Lyanna is already the warrior maid you think we have enough of. She was skilled enough with swordfighting to defeat three squires with nothing but a tourney sword. She is not "just an excellent rider", and I don't know how you could possibly think so. Her fiery personality and skill at arms already played a role in the KotLT story, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't play a further role, especially when that role ties so well into the larger story.

Wait, wait, I agree she is an excellent rider but I don't know of any evidence that she was a cross between Barristan the Bold and Arthur Dayne. Right now you've got her defeating the squires single-handed and all three knights in the tournament.

I've asked before, but do we have any evidence textually of any training in how to joust or to fight with a sword? I'm happy to hear it but I'm not aware of any.

Yes, I know good horsemanship is important to jousting - it's important to allow the rider to keep the horse under control and exactly on target while making small adjustments to put off the opponent's aim. GRRM shows us this at The Hand's Tourney with "so-and-so shifted his seat at the last moment". But Arya is a good rider too - Harwin compliments her on how well she rides just after he catches her. Neither of those things prove that either of them has ever held, or even knows how to hold, a lance. Or that Lyanna has ever worn armour before. A skillful rider would adapt but wearing all that weight would have an impact on balance, vision and reactions.

As for the warrior maid defeaing all three squires. Nah. All the Starks turned up together, I don't think pimpleface the squire and friends would want to fight with Noblemen and I very much doubt they would have squared off agasint a woman. More like they high-tailed it while she walloped them, Arya and Hot-pir style, while Brandon and the others laughed. As for evidence: I don't see Bran seeing big sister hitting little brother with a stick through the weirwood as much proof of anything, other than children playing.

In general, I fully expect the story to be played out in full. GRRM has been such a tease having the Reeds tell Bran but leave that bit out. Presumably whenever Howland turns up and tells people about Isle of Faces, Tourney, Tower of Joy and Jon's identity it will all be there.

Incidentally, screw Torgon late-comer it should be Howland late-comer and no mistake. Is this guy even turning up in TWOW or do we have to wait until ADOS?

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@the trees have eyes--

Before I address you points, I want to ask you a couple questions: if it was Benjen or Howland, then why did they dress up as a mystery knight at all? Neither one of them has any reason for secrecy, while Lyanna does, because as a woman she would otherwise not be allowed to enter the lists.

Second question: what exactly is the point to the author hiding the KotLT's identity, if he turned out to be Benjen or Howland? If the knight is Lyanna, then it at least ties into the larger story. But Benjen or Howland? That's a useless revelation, and a useless thing to turn into a mystery.

Wait, wait, I agree she is an excellent rider but I don't know of any evidence that she was a cross between Barristan the Bold and Arthur Dayne. Right now you've got her defeating the squires single-handed and all three knights in the tournament.

I've asked before, but do we have any evidence textually of any training in how to joust or to fight with a sword? I'm happy to hear it but I'm not aware of any.

When the author compares her to Arya, who loved fighting, when he describes her as someone who would've worn a sword if her father allowed it, when he shows her defeating her brother in a mock sword fight, when he mentions that she fought off three squires with a tourney sword, then the author is telling you she was a warrior-maid type. It's not my fault if you want to ignore it.

Yes, I know good horsemanship is important to jousting - it's important to allow the rider to keep the horse under control and exactly on target while making small adjustments to put off the opponent's aim. GRRM shows us this at The Hand's Tourney with "so-and-so shifted his seat at the last moment". But Arya is a good rider too - Harwin compliments her on how well she rides just after he catches her. Neither of those things prove that either of them has ever held, or even knows how to hold, a lance. Or that Lyanna has ever worn armour before. A skillful rider would adapt but wearing all that weight would have an impact on balance, vision and reactions.

And who says Lyanna hasn't worn armor or wielded a lance before? She could've ridden at rings at home, and she could've borrowed her brothers' armor.

As for the warrior maid defeaing all three squires. Nah. All the Starks turned up together,

No, Lyanna was alone. She took Howland back to her tent to meet her brothers.

I don't think pimpleface the squire and friends would want to fight with Noblemen and I very much doubt they would have squared off agasint a woman. More like they high-tailed it while she walloped them, Arya and Hot-pir style, while Brandon and the others laughed.

Hot pie was not a squire. Squires are basically knights in training. You think squires are going to allow themselves to be humiliated by a woman with nothing but a tourney sword?

As for evidence: I don't see Bran seeing big sister hitting little brother with a stick through the weirwood as much proof of anything, other than children playing.

They were more than just playing. The girl especially was highly competitive in the fight. And she was beating the boy, while Arya was never able to beat Bran.

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@ Dragonfish

1. Howland because he isn't eligible to enter and has to fall on the old mystery knight ploy rather like one Barristan the Bold, "A boy, a bold boy". I don't think Benjen myself, he has no reason to hide and, after all, it wasn't him we saw trudging all the way down to Godseye and paddling across to the Isle of Faces and it wasn't him who got beaten up by the squires.

2. Not really useless unless you think the only purpose of the story is to set up Jon's parentage more strongly in people's minds (read this board's collective consciousness).. It's a story for Bran like Nan's story of the Long Night and it sheds light - at least teasing glimpses of it - into some of the key events of the past. Rather like Ned's feverdream or Barristan's musing it shows us one or several specific parts of the puzzle - Ned with Ashara Dayne, Rhaegar crowning Lyanna Queen of Beauty and that being the point that all smiles died. I understand why people like the idea of Lyanna but it doesn't mean the story is devoid of purpose if its not - just that some reader presumptions to canon turn out to be wrong.

On the fighting thing you didn't offer any evidence I'm afriad, just a stick fight with Benjen. Plenty of children then and now have fought with sticks and it doesn't make them trained warriors. I'm not ignorng evidence (I'm actually asking for it), rather it seems to me you are finding the odd scrap to suport your predetermined conclusion.

Same on the jousting. You can't answer a request for evidence that something happened with the response "how do we know it didn't happen" and expect it to suffice! I'd like something a bit more empirical than that.

Was she alone? I may have to concede that as I am working from memory and believed that she was accompanied by her brothers.

But, no, I still don't expect three squires to fight a noblewoman. I expect them to beat a retreat as boys usually do when they have been caught misbehaving, particularly by someone more important than them (their knights chastise them after they are rebuked during the jousts "Teach your squires honour", so its clear they are being naughty little rascals). I expect their actions were purely defensive, if anything at all, rather than that they surrounded her and went at her hammer and tongs before being defeated. That sounds extremely far-fetched to me.

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When Jaime Lannister watches Loras Tyrell joust, he mentions that its really about riding, which is why Ser Loras is so good at it despite being small.

Barbrey Ryswell Dustin mentions that Brandon and Lyanna were "like two centaurs"

Howland Reed is a crannogman who isn't a very good rider. Could Reed have had a "Jorah Mormont Moment"? possible, but not likely. Mormont at least can sit a horse.

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@ Dragonfish

1. Howland because he isn't eligible to enter

Yes he was. Benjen offered him his own armor so that Howland could take his revenge in the lists, but he refused. So, now that this has been debunked, do you have some other explanation for Howland entering the tourney as a mystery knight?

2. Not really useless unless you think the only purpose of the story is to set up Jon's parentage more strongly in people's minds (read this board's collective consciousness).. It's a story for Bran like Nan's story of the Long Night and it sheds light - at least teasing glimpses of it - into some of the key events of the past. Rather like Ned's feverdream or Barristan's musing it shows us one or several specific parts of the puzzle - Ned with Ashara Dayne, Rhaegar crowning Lyanna Queen of Beauty and that being the point that all smiles died. I understand why people like the idea of Lyanna but it doesn't mean the story is devoid of purpose if its not - just that some reader presumptions to canon turn out to be wrong.

You still haven't answered my main question: why did the author choose to present this as a secret, a mystery? If it's just meant to give us background detail, then he could easily have simply revealed who the KotLT was. Waiting to reveal it later just builds up the mystery too much in comparison to the story's main purpose.

On the fighting thing you didn't offer any evidence I'm afriad, just a stick fight with Benjen. Plenty of children then and now have fought with sticks and it doesn't make them trained warriors. I'm not ignorng evidence (I'm actually asking for it), rather it seems to me you are finding the odd scrap to suport your predetermined conclusion.

It's not the "odd scrap", it's a series of quotes that consistently describes Lyanna as the warrior-made type. George would not have put these various scenes and descriptions in if that was not his intent. You are literally the only person I've ever seen argue that Lyanna was not this type of woman, which is why your position is so baffling to me.

Same on the jousting. You can't answer a request for evidence that something happened with the response "how do we know it didn't happen" and expect it to suffice! I'd like something a bit more empirical than that.

And I'd like some empirical evidence to support your claim that Howland used magic to instantly become a good rider and jouster. At least my claim that Lyanna could've been a good jouster is more realistic compared to your claim that Howland suddenly became a good jouster just because.

Now, if you're looking for "proof" that Lyanna was a good jouster, then there isn't any. But no one here is arguing based on proof, we're arguing from inferences and interpretations of the text. And the text states on two separate occasions that being a good rider is the most important component to being a good jouster, and one of these passages even re-iterates that Lyanna was an amazing rider. Do you seriously not see what the author is trying to tell you?

Was she alone? I may have to concede that as I am working from memory and believed that she was accompanied by her brothers.

Yes, she was alone.

But, no, I still don't expect three squires to fight a noblewoman. I expect them to beat a retreat as boys usually do when they have been caught misbehaving, particularly by someone more important than them (their knights chastise them after they are rebuked during the jousts "Teach your squires honour", so its clear they are being naughty little rascals). I expect their actions were purely defensive, if anything at all, rather than that they surrounded her and went at her hammer and tongs before being defeated. That sounds extremely far-fetched to me.

I wouldn't expect them to beat Lyanna or anything, but I'd at least expect them to attempt to disarm her or something. No one likes being chased off by a girl.

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