Knight of the Laughing Tree

[the trees have eyes]

Yes he was. Benjen offered him his own armor so that Howland could take his revenge in the lists, but he refused. So, now that this has been debunked, do you have some other explanation for Howland entering the tourney as a mystery knight?

You still haven't answered my main question: why did the author choose to present this as a secret, a mystery? If it's just meant to give us background detail, then he could easily have simply revealed who the KotLT was. Waiting to reveal it later just builds up the mystery too much in comparison to the story's main purpose.

It's not the "odd scrap", it's a series of quotes that consistently describes Lyanna as the warrior-made type. George would not have put these various scenes and descriptions in if that was not his intent. You are literally the only person I've ever seen argue that Lyanna was not this type of woman, which is why your position is so baffling to me.

And I'd like some empirical evidence to support your claim that Howland used magic to instantly become a good rider and jouster. At least my claim that Lyanna could've been a good jouster is more realistic compared to your claim that Howland suddenly became a good jouster just because.

Now, if you're looking for "proof" that Lyanna was a good jouster, then there isn't any. But no one here is arguing based on proof, we're arguing from inferences and interpretations of the text. And the text states on two separate occasions that being a good rider is the most important component to being a good jouster, and one of these passages even re-iterates that Lyanna was an amazing rider. Do you seriously not see what the author is trying to tell you?

Yes, she was alone.

I wouldn't expect them to beat Lyanna or anything, but I'd at least expect them to attempt to disarm her or something. No one likes being chased off by a girl.

Are you sure he Is eligible? It's an interesting point. I always assumed the riders had to be knights or squires. If I remember correctly Jory and Alyn ride in The Tourney of the Hand to represent Ned but I always thought this was an exemption because, the Northmen keeping their own gods rarely take the vows to the Seven required to become a knight and someone needed to ride in Ned's name. Ser Jorah, Ser Rodrik and the Manderleys are the exceptions (the last being exiled Southerners from the Mander after all). But there are freeriders in The Tourney of The Hand (Lothor Brune at least I think) as well as Bronze Yohn Royce who may or not be a knight. I think that as someone who was not a knight and did not follow the faith of the Seven Howland would not be allowed to enter. Sufficient birth and social status might overcome those impediments - Bronze Yohn? any of the Starks - but the Crannogmen are second class citizens, sometimes hunted by the Freys according to Jojen, Howland being the son of the Lord of the Crannogmen carries as much weight as Timett being leader of the Burned Men (they are both savages in the eyes of Westerosi high society) so he doesn't fit the bill. Hence the mystery knight ploy.

Add to that he is worried about shaming his people and a disguise is doubly appealing.

Why did GRRM choose to keep it a mystery? Well, why did he choose to leave Arya at knife-point at the end of AGOT, or Brienne danglng from a rope at the end of AFFC? Why didn't he finish Old Nan's story to Bran about the Long Night? To create suspense or an air of mystery - to keep us guessing.

For you the only point of this story is to light up another neon sign about Jon's parents. I think there is so much more of interest than that. What exactly did Howland learn on the Isle of Faces, how many Children are still there and what role will they play in the story, how is that connected to Jojen's greensight? Something important happened to HR - that is the point of the story for me, and the fact that his children have appeared but he hasn't intrigues me. We know that the greenesers had power over every beast that ran or swam or flew, we know Howland spent a year with the Children, that he prayed to the old gods before the joust: these are the kind of clues that when they support the theory that Lyanna is the KOTLT you say are obvious signs that the author is trying to show us the knight's identity but discount when they point the other way. That does cut both ways.

What is the point about the Crannogman's visit to the Isle of Faces if not to have some bearing on the story? I have nothing empirical at all about Howland being blessed by magic in the jousts and I'll happily admit it. But I do think there are hints same as you think there are hints but have nothing empirical that Lyanna learned to be an excellent jouster.

We didn't need a tale of that length and with that strange little visit to the Isle of Faces just to hint who Jon's parents are. Something else is going on.

[Dragonfish]

Are you sure he Is eligible?

Yes. As I said, Benjen offered him his armor so he could enter the lists and take his revenge.

It's an interesting point. I always assumed the riders had to be knights or squires.

I think contestants had to be knights in the tourney in The Hedge Knight, but that was just a rule for that specific tournament. There's no general rule that only knights can participate in these tourneys.

So, any explanation for why he entered as a mystery knight, now that this has been debunked?

Add to that he is worried about shaming his people and a disguise is doubly appealing.

If he has the power of the greenseers behind him, then why should he worry about shaming his people?

Why did GRRM choose to keep it a mystery? Well, why did he choose to leave Arya at knife-point at the end of AGOT, or Brienne danglng from a rope at the end of AFFC? Why didn't he finish Old Nan's story to Bran about the Long Night? To create suspense or an air of mystery - to keep us guessing.

Those are all cliffhangers involving character's fates, not genuine mysteries. The sole exception is Old Nan's story, which actually ties into the overarching plot of the series, and therefore proves my point: there's no reason for George to leave the identity of the KotLT a secret unless it somehow ties into the larger story.

For you the only point of this story is to light up another neon sign about Jon's parents.

No, that's not the only point of the story to me. I also think it gives insight into Lyanna's character, and how her and Rhaegar's relationship bloomed. I also think it's just a good story in general, and for more interesting than one in which Howland wins due to deus ex machine style magic.

I think there is so much more of interest than that.

See, I don't think your version of events is interesting at all. A man defeats three champions with the help of magic? Snooze. Ned's sister defeats three knights while disguised as a mystery knight? Much more interesting, in my view.

What exactly did Howland learn on the Isle of Faces, how many Children are still there and what role will they play in the story, how is that connected to Jojen's greensight? Something important happened to HR - that is the point of the story for me, and the fact that his children have appeared but he hasn't intrigues me.

Those questions are still present in the story even if Howland isn't the KotLT. Your response therefore doesn't answer my question: what is the point if Howland is this mystery knight?

We know that the greenesers had power over every beast that ran or swam or flew, we know Howland spent a year with the Children, that he prayed to the old gods before the joust: these are the kind of clues that when they support the theory that Lyanna is the KOTLT you say are obvious signs that the author is trying to show us the knight's identity but discount when they point the other way. That does cut both ways.

Sorry, there's nothing here that points both ways. You are proposing the existence of magic that has never been mentioned in the series before in order to justify your preferred interpretation. I am proposing that Lyanna was a good jouster based on her riding skills, which is explicitly supported by two different characters in the books. My position has far more "empirical evidence" than yours.

What is the point about the Crannogman's visit to the Isle of Faces if not to have some bearing on the story?

I think it has bearing on the overarching story, but it doesn't have any bearing on the identity of the KotLT.

[Lord Greystark]

The thing about the knight of the laughing tree is that it could be virtually anybody. This is a wild guess, but my vote is on Jaime Lannister. The only reason being that after Howland Reed was bullied, he went to pray at a weirwood tree. Many northerners pray in silent, but it's not uncommon for them to make requests out loud to the trees. What if someone else was there? Such as a newly appointed member of the Kingsguard, who happened to want nothing else but to participate in the tournament, and also happened to be sent to King's Landing from Harrenhal around the same time all of these events occured. I don't believe any of the Starks actually knew who the mystery knight was (unless of course one of them actually was the KOTLT). Furthermore King Aerys was furious at this Knight's appearance and demanded that he/she be revealed. Almost as though he suspected it was Jaime Lannister. The only thing that goes against this crazy theory is the mystery knight's sigil. Nevertheless, I just wanted to throw that out there.

[The guy from the Vale]

The thing about the knight of the laughing tree is that it could be virtually anybody. This is a wild guess, but my vote is on Jaime Lannister. The only reason being that after Howland Reed was bullied, he went to pray at a weirwood tree. Many northerners pray in silent, but it's not uncommon for them to make requests out loud to the trees. What if someone else was there? Such as a newly appointed member of the Kingsguard, who happened to want nothing else but to participate in the tournament, and also happened to be sent to King's Landing from Harrenhal around the same time all of these events occured. I don't believe any of the Starks actually knew who the mystery knight was (unless of course one of them actually was the KOTLT). Furthermore King Aerys was furious at this Knight's appearance and demanded that he/she be revealed. Almost as though he suspected it was Jaime Lannister. The only thing that goes against this crazy theory is the mystery knight's sigil. Nevertheless, I just wanted to throw that out there.

We have Jaime's POV. He never remembers anything like that. He was also sent to KL directly after being sworn in, iirc, so he had little chance to ride in the joust.

[rmholt]

Yes, I think you're confused about the tournament structure. Have you read The Hedge Knight?

It's good to recall that interesting as the prequels are, they were written after the books, which IMHO are able to stand on their own. Do we really need to know the tournament structure beyond what is said throughout the book to understand the tale? The prequels do contain a lot of info in one place, though, to be sure.

[rmholt]

I think it has bearing on the overarching story, but it doesn't have any bearing on the identity of the KotLT.

It might. It might also have bearing on what happened at T o J. Since we dont know, we dont know.

[rmholt]

Just explain to me how Rhaegar "found" Lyanna?

Presume she wanted to be found.

[corbon]

It's good to recall that interesting as the prequels are, they were written after the books, which IMHO are able to stand on their own. Do we really need to know the tournament structure beyond what is said throughout the book to understand the tale? The prequels do contain a lot of info in one place, though, to be sure.

None-the-less, Dragontamer did miss an awful lot. And make a lot of claims that are totally nonsense according to what is actually written in ASoIaF.

There is plenty of info on the tourney at Harrenhal right there in the Reed's tale, but a lot of posters, Dragontamer among them, miss out half of it and then make mis-informed claims about the rest.

There were 5 champions and 5 champion's pavilions as the second day drew to a close and the light began to fade.

The KotLT appeared out of nowhere and challenged and beat three of the five champions that evening.

The next morning there were two champions (the two not challenged by KotLT) and their pavilions, but that was all as the KotLT never showed (nor did his (her) pavilion).

At the end of the fifth day, Rhaegar and Barristan were the final two champions. There is no indication either of them were champions at the end of day 2.

[corbon]

Presume she wanted to be found.

I suspect, since KotLT had very publicly told the Knights that instead of paying the usual fee (arms and armour etc) for losing, they should 'teach their squires honour', Rhaegar started by questioning the squires about what that could of meant. From there it is a short trip to figuring out Lyanna was the KotLT that requires no physical proof at all.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

A bit crackpotish here. But assuming HR was tKotLT and Lyanna was there to meet him after his victories, she would want to be there to celebrate with him(they seemed to be fast friends and nothing more), Rhaegar would have told her whatever she wanted to fulfill his prophecies to be close to her even agree to Howland not being harmed he KNEW what he had to do( thus the "it seems I must become a warrior). He needed a woman of ice. Howland having had the sight would accpet it and live his days in exile after the conflict. Lyanna does the whole thing and Ned does his bit. The catch here is why does Howland ride with Ned? Is it simlpy out of friendship for Lyanna? I tend to think not, I think he tells Ned about a green dream before they go to the ToJ. He(HR) has a wife and he loves her so he holds the secrets. He backs Ned knowing his secret and hopes Ned doesn't give away his. The damned if you do and damned if you don't theory? So why Jojen and Meera? Ned took it to his grave. He's doesn't back a house but his friend.

[Lord Greystark]

We have Jaime's POV. He never remembers anything like that. He was also sent to KL directly after being sworn in, iirc, so he had little chance to ride in the joust.

We also have ned stark povs and they didnt reveal anything for us either.

[The guy from the Vale]

We also have ned stark povs and they didnt reveal anything for us either.

Ned reveals an awful lot, mostly in throwaway lines, memories and dreams. No such hints for Jaime being the KotLT, though.

[danm_999]

I don't want to sound too condescending, but I'm pretty surprised so many people have trouble with the idea the TKOTLT was Lyanna.

The story basically hits us over the head with it, and it's more poignant and relevant a story given the ending implies Rhaegar DID find the identity of the Mystery Knight, and that's how he met Lyanna.

Think of it this way; the story takes up a significant chunk of a Bran chapter. If the identity of the TKOLTL is Lyanna, it makes sense because it's setting up the R+L=J background, one of the more important mysteries in ASOIAF. But if it's Benjen or Howland, what's the point of the story? Moreover, why would Ned or Howland have kept the story a secret from everyone?

[Naathi Prince]

Yea, I've seen people argue "Ned is the KotLT" or "Benjen is the KotLT" and "Howland is the KotLT" none of them make any sense whatsoever. The books show you big clues as to why none of them are true. Ned was about 18, a full grown man, KotLT was small. Benjen was about 13 and Lyanna was a better fighter than him, no way he's defeating all the full grown men at the tourney. Howland can barely ride at that point.

[carmela28]

I believe that Lyanna = KOTLT.

When telling the tale to Bran (and to us), Meera clearly identifies two distinct characters - the crannogman and the KOTLT. If both are the same person - Howland - why tell the story in such a way to make it appear as they are different people? Wouldn't it be easier just to say "and then the little crannogman found some armor, entered the tourney and kicked ass"? Why create suspense when none is called for?

And why would Jojen pointedly ask Bran, "are you sure that your father never told you this story"? For me, that implies that this story holds some significance for Bran.

We know that Ned told Bran that Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland. Assuming that Howland = KOTLT, why wouldn't Ned have also told Bran about Howland's heroic performance at the tourney?

there's no reason for George to leave the identity of the KotLT a secret unless it somehow ties into the larger story

Absolutely correct. There is no reason for us NOT to know that Howland (or Benjen, for that matter) was the mystery knight. It would not add or detract from the story that we have been given to date.

[Swiftraven]

I think it's Lyanna to be honest.

And I definitely picked up on Jojen repeatedly asking Bran "are you sure your father never told you this story?" when I first read it. It might even imply that they know know about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and if we, for some reason, never get to meet Howland, they might tell Bran about it. In fact, Jojen and Meera might tell Bran about it whilst some other related character might Howland and hear the story from him.

[corbon]

A bit crackpotish here. But assuming HR was tKotLT He's doesn't back a house but his friend.

HR is not the KotLT.

Jojen says so, more or less.

Meera: (this knight) "might have been a crannogman"

Jojen: "Or not".

If HR is the KotLT then there should be no expectation for Ned to have told the story to Brandon (its a Reed story, not a Stark story), yet the Reeds are astonished Brandon hasn't heard it from his father.

HR is wounded the night before.

HR is offered a horse to compete but is afraid to accept because he was afraid of losing and making a fool of himself. Bringing shame to his people in the process. He was no knight, not used to horses and lances.

If HR i the KotLT the stor is completely unimportant to the meta-story and a complete waste of space.

[rmholt]

Here's something I wonder about.

Meera tells the story of the KoLT to Bran. The crannogman visits the Isle of Faces and learns some magic to add to his already prodigious skills. The story of that trip is not hers to tell

After he leaves the Isle of Faces he sees the tourney but knows he is no knight. Yet he prays to them. If they are C ot F they might be relatives.

The Mystery Knight's shield is weirwood with a heart tree.

Rhaegar went after her.

The story of Lyanna being made the Queen of Love and Beauty by the Dragon Prince is sad. Meera knows it all. Either Howland told it or Jojen dreamed it

Prior to this, Liddle met up with them.

The crannogman knew how to: Breathe mud (like Meera) Run on leaves, change earth to water and water to earth, talk to trees, and weave words and make castles appear and disappear. A rather intriguing skill set. C ot F were left in the Neck and perhaps interbred with or taught the crannogmen. We dont know what skills he learned on the Isle of Faces but knightly skills were not among them.

OK:

Crannogman was Howland. He learned some trick that helped Ned defeat Arthur Dayne.

The story of the Isle of Faces is not Meera's to tell. It is Howland's and we will read it at some point. Ned might be involved.

Knight was Lyanna. Maybe. Rhaegar chased her and was smitten. However, the crannogman prayed before the tourney. Why? The booming voice was from Howland and his skillz somehow. Benjen was very young at that time. Brandon was 19, Ned 17, Lyanna 15, Benjen younger than that. Maybe it was him. Maybe the prayers gave the crannogman the knightly skills he lacked - helped with some sort of weirdness between him and Lyanna and the other Starks.

The T o J was torn down with the help of Howland and his skills at making castles appear and disappear. He also uses this skill to hide Greywater watch and snare the unwary in the Neck.

LIddle knew darn well who Bran and his retinue were.

Jojen dreamed the wolves would return to Winterfell and told the Liddle. So who? Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, or Benjen? Or Jon? Jeyne does not count. They werent there at this time (Bran journeying to the North).

[The Great Cornholio!]

I do wonder if Rhaeger kept the knight of the laughing tree's shield...

I wonder if these heirlooms will be waiting for Jon in the tombs of winterfell. Brandon was buried there because he was the Lord of Winterfell. Lyanna was buried there because she was a Queen.

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

Ned reveals an awful lot, mostly in throwaway lines, memories and dreams. No such hints for Jaime being the KotLT, though.

Because Ned remember this kind of things. Jaime might have forgotten them. Did Jaime had specific POVs on Harrenhal? He always has this "so what" attitude.

You people are barking at the wrong tree. It is obviously THE WALDER who is the KOTLT