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Knight of the Laughing Tree


Anvik

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Pt 3

The three squires are identified at the feast.

Lyanna sees the squires and points them out to her brothers. Ned,Brandon and Benjen know the story of what happened by now, no doubt.

Benjen offers HR armour and a horse, so he can joust in the tourney.

HR declines. He is no knight (neither are his people). His skills are with boats and oars, not horses and lances.

He turns down the offer as he is afraid he would only make a fool of himself and his people.

Clearly HR will not become the KotLT.

HR spent the night sharing Ned's tent. But prays to the Old Gods first.

Jojen is still expecting Bran to have heard this tale from his father. Its clearly a Stark Tale, not a Reed tale.

The jousting will last 5 days. Other events are schedules as well.

A review of the starting setup for the tourney. The 4 Whent brothers are all defeated on the first day (presumably Oswell Whent is not). At the end of the day, presumably one of the final challenges of the day, the Pitchfork Knight wins and becomes a (custodial) champion.

During the morning of the second day, the knghts of the other two squires win challenges and become champions. By lunchtime, fortuitously, all three are among the 5 current champions (and probably still Oswell Whent).

Someone sees an opportunity. Late in the afternoon of that day a mystery knight (KotLT) appears.

Bran thinks its the little crannogman. He's a kid and still thinks its a magical tale, not paying attention to the details.

KotLT. Short of stature (rules out Brandon and Ned, so of those who know, we have Lyanna, HR and Benjen).

Clad in ill-fitting armour. Benjen should have armour that fits properly. Not conclusively ruled out, but a definite strike against.

A white weirwood with a laughing face - clearly someone who favours the old gods.

With HR already having several strikes against (its a Stark story, he hasn't got the skills, he already declined when offered), its clear by this stage that the KotLT is Lyanna Stark. Unless of course you are a kid still wrapped up in the fairy tale.

Proof positive that the mystery knight is all about the three squires beating up on HR, Confirmed by the KotLTs terms when (s)he wins each joust (see below).

Its the end of the day, the KotLT challenges the three knights.

KotLT beats the three in succession and is named as champion in their place (number of champions drops from 5 to 3).

KotLT speaks in a booming voice, through his helm.

A booming voice, from inside a closed helm,is easily the result of deliberately speaking in an unnaturally low register to disguise your voice. Note that when Catelyn first meets Brienne, Brienne is mistaken for a man still, even after speaking from inside her closed helm. Only after she raises her helm topeople realise she is a woman.

And absolute unequivocal proof that the KotLT was all about the incident wit the three squires. Which means Jojen (ruled out), Lyanna (fits absolutely everything perfectly, both in story and metastory) or Benjen (very unlikely due to being even smaller, younger and less physically able than Lyanna, probably having his own armour, and having no rhyme or reason for this act before or after.).

That night (3 days of tourney remaining) Robert Baratheon (ironically given the identity) and Richard Lonmouth swear to unmask the KotLT. Aerys urged men to challenge him, declaring that the KotLT was no friend of the king.

Also, apparently Robert Baratheon is fairly close to the crown, supporting Awerys here, drinking with a close associate of Rhaegar (I'm not sure of that particular info actually)

Next morning, no KotLT. SImply doesn't turn up (job is done). Only two champions are left now, with 3 days left to joust.

Aerys was furious, and sent Rhaegar to find the KotLT. They found only the shield, hanging in a tree.

Rhaegar won the tourney in the end. We hear elsewhere that along the way he beat Brandon Stark, Bronze Yohn Royce and Arthur Dayne.

Lyanna was named Queen of Love and beauty (by Rhaegar).

Seems very likely he did find her (not hard, all he has to do is ask the three squires who were publicly chastised, what happened recently) but did not report her to Aerys and instead awarded her courage and honour in the only way he publicly could. Until he awards the crown to her, there is no known direct interaction between them. She sniffles at his song, but thats just a girl in a listening crowd at a party, he probably never knew her before.

And Jojen still is having trouble believing Bran hasn't heard this story from Ned. Its clearly very much a House Stark story.

Well put, and exactly as I see it-- in spite of being a noob ;)

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Laughing Tree was Ned until grrm says otherwise. Lyanna was 13 and shouldnt have had the physical strength to compete. Wasnt Selmy 10 when he made a fool of himself? I dont see

why Lyanna should be better.

If you're going to use Lyanna's age as a reason to disqualify her, you should probably get it right. She was 15, not 13. Barristan, by the way, won a tourney at 16, defeating the then-LC of the Kingsguard to do it. All Lyanna would have had to do was beat three fairly average knights.

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If you're going to use Lyanna's age as a reason to disqualify her, you should probably get it right. She was 15, not 13. Barristan, by the way, won a tourney at 16, defeating the then-LC of the Kingsguard to do it. All Lyanna would have had to do was beat three fairly average knights.
How could she have been 15? She was 16 when she died, and we know from Jaime that about 2 years passed between the tourney and the sack. Then you have to add more time for Ned breaking the siege and fighting in the south before going to the Tower of Joy. At absolute best, she was 14. And Selmy winning at 16 hardly matters. Do I even need to point out that men are a lot stronger than women?
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How could she have been 15? She was 16 when she died, and we know from Jaime that about 2 years passed between the tourney and the sack. Then you have to add more time for Ned breaking the siege and fighting in the south before going to the Tower of Joy. At absolute best, she was 14.

Jaime was 15 at the time of Harrenhal, and was born in 266: Lyanna was born in 267. Lyanna would therefore have to be either 14 or 15 - she could not have been 13. My own best estimate is that she was 15, based on an assumption that the tourney took place in early 282, though some prefer the date of 281 - no actual date is given in the books.

And Selmy winning at 16 hardly matters. Do I even need to point out that men are a lot stronger than women?

So Selmy's only an appropriate comparison if you want to discredit Lyanna, not when it works the other way?

Physical strength is not the be-all and end-all of jousting. Loras is able to defeat men bigger and stronger than he is: so too was the youthful Selmy. And again, the KotLT wasn't facing the Mountain That Rides, just three (so far as we know) ordinary household knights.

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Jaime was 15 at the time of Harrenhal, and was born in 266: Lyanna was born in 267. Lyanna would therefore have to be either 14 or 15 - she could not have been 13. My own best estimate is that she was 15, based on an assumption that the tourney took place in early 282, though some prefer the date of 281 - no actual date is given in the books. So Selmy's only an appropriate comparison if you want to discredit Lyanna, not when it works the other way? Physical strength is not the be-all and end-all of jousting. Loras is able to defeat men bigger and stronger than he is: so too was the youthful Selmy. And again, the KotLT wasn't facing the Mountain That Rides, just three (so far as we know) ordinary household knights.
Where do you get your year of births from? And you should realize that a person born at the beginning of 266 would be 2 years older than someone born at the end of 267.

Selmy winning at 16 doesnt matter because he would have already been stronger than Lyanna could ever hope to be. Strength isnt everything, but Lyanna would have had to ride accurately while fully armored and be able to take the force of the blow.

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Laughing Tree was Ned until grrm says otherwise. Lyanna was 13 and shouldnt have had the physical strength to compete. Wasnt Selmy 10 when he made a fool of himself? I dont see

why Lyanna should be better.

There is no way tKotLT is Ned. See below

Pt 3

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

...Short of stature (rules out Brandon and Ned, so of those who know, we have Lyanna, HR and Benjen).

Clad in ill-fitting armour. Benjen should have armour that fits properly. Not conclusively ruled out, but a definite strike against.

A white weirwood with a laughing face - clearly someone who favours the old gods.

With HR already having several strikes against (its a Stark story, he hasn't got the skills, he already declined when offered), its clear by this stage that the KotLT is Lyanna Stark. Unless of course you are a kid still wrapped up in the fairy tale.

If you're going to use Lyanna's age as a reason to disqualify her, you should probably get it right. She was 15, not 13. Barristan, by the way, won a tourney at 16, defeating the then-LC of the Kingsguard to do it. All Lyanna would have had to do was beat three fairly average knights.

Also, the day before she beat their squires handily with a tourney sword. They would have been boys of her own age or older and she beat them all at once. Put her on horseback with real weapons and I wouldn't give very good odds to a single average knight.

(Aside- remind anyone of the Arya vs. Hot Pie and Lommy scene? Yeah they were little orphan boys, but she was only 9 years old. Seems to me she showed her auntie's fighting spirit there ;))

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Where do you get your year of births from?

The wiki. Mind you, the wiki gives the date of Harrenhal as 281, and I obviously don't agree with that! :P But the wiki in turn derives those dates of birth from information in the books, specifically that Jaime was 17 at the climax of the War of the Usurper, and Lyanna was 16.

And you should realize that a person born at the beginning of 266 would be 2 years older than someone born at the end of 267.

Of course, but see above. Jaime was not two years older than Lyanna. I think we can say the difference is likely to be in the range of 6-18 months: I favour the lower end of the range, but that's a personal preference.

Selmy winning at 16 doesnt matter because he would have already been stronger than Lyanna could ever hope to be. Strength isnt everything, but Lyanna would have had to ride accurately while fully armored and be able to take the force of the blow.

And there is nothing to suggest that Lyanna was not strong enough to do that.

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There is no way tKotLT is Ned. See below Also, the day before she beat their squires handily with a tourney sword. They would have been boys of her own age or older and she beat them all at once. Put her on horseback with real weapons and I wouldn't give very good odds to a single average knight. (Aside- remind anyone of the Arya vs. Hot Pie and Lommy scene? Yeah they were little orphan boys, but she was only 9 years old. Seems to me she showed her auntie's fighting spirit there ;))
the knight also had a booming voice. what fool woul think tht a young girl was a man?

i think the knights small stature is just meera leaving open the magic option for bran.

lastly, lyanna was never described as fighting the boys. who would be dumb enough to fight a stark girl?

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Yea, I DEF do not think that "short of stature" disqualifies Ned at all!!

I wont say for sure kotlf is Ned, but he is my best guess.

As to "short of stature" he might not have reached his full height, and let us not forget this is a story told by a young girl, not a history book set down by the Maesters.

My guess is Ned, but really it could be any of them...

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The wiki. Mind you, the wiki gives the date of Harrenhal as 281, and I obviously don't agree with that! :P But the wiki in turn derives those dates of birth from information in the books, specifically that Jaime was 17 at the climax of the War of the Usurper, and Lyanna was 16.
lyanna was 16 when she died, not at the sack.
Of course, but see above. Jaime was not two years older than Lyanna. I think we can say the difference is likely to be in the range of 6-18 months: I favour the lower end of the range, but that's a personal preference.
see above.
And there is nothing to suggest that Lyanna was not strong enough to do that.
she was a young girl. thats all the evidence needed.
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Where do you get your year of births from? And you should realize that a person born at the beginning of 266 would be 2 years older than someone born at the end of 267.

Selmy winning at 16 doesnt matter because he would have already been stronger than Lyanna could ever hope to be. Strength isnt everything, but Lyanna would have had to ride accurately while fully armored and be able to take the force of the blow.

Why would you assume Lyanna was born at the end of 267? She was 16 already at the Battle of the Trident which was in 283 and could just as well have been (and more likely was) born at the beginning of 267. If Jaime was born near the end of 266 they could be almost of age. Harrenhal is dated only by Jaime's age when he was inducted into the Kingsguard, but per your own argument on dates he could have been 15 until very near the end of 281, at which point Lyanna would be nearly 15.

Anyways, to your point about her physical strength see my comments above. She has already proved that she can handily defeat 3 squires (squires would be her own age, I believe the story mentions these 3 to be about 15) single-handedly armed only with a stick.

As for her abilities on horseback:

"Lyanna rode horses like a northman. Harwin compares her riding skills to those of Arya Stark. Barbrey Ryswell reports that both Brandon and Lyanna loved to ride. She compares them to a "pair of centaurs". Roose Bolton claims that Lyanna was "half a horse herself", probably meaning a centaur."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark

and this also from awoiaf...

"When Bran Stark has visions through the heart tree of Winterfell, a scene seems to involve a girl looking like Arya (and Lyanna). Two children are seen duelling with broken branches, using them as swords. The girl is older and taller than the boy. She defeats the boy, slashing him across the thigh. The boy loses his balance and falls into the pool. He starts splashing and shouting. The girl warns him to be quiet, or Old Nan will hear him and notify their father."

clearly fighting with boys there.

As far as the booming voice goes, most people point to the example of Brienne being constantly mistaken for a man when she is helmed. If Lyanna is purposely trying to disguise her voice, there's no reason to assume people would not simply assume she was a man speaking loudly. Remember, people see and hear what they expect and none of the witnesses would expect tKotLT to be a girl.

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Yea, I DEF do not think that "short of stature" disqualifies Ned at all!!

I wont say for sure kotlf is Ned, but he is my best guess.

As to "short of stature" he might not have reached his full height, and let us not forget this is a story told by a young girl, not a history book set down by the Maesters.

My guess is Ned, but really it could be any of them...

Why would Ned participate in the tourney as a mystery knight clad in ill-fitting armor? What is his motivation to suddenly enter the tournament and defeat only those 3 knights? It was Lyanna who confronted their squires.

And I'm not sure how old Ned was at the tourney, but I'm pretty sure he was not so young that he would be "short of stature".

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Why would Ned participate in the tourney as a mystery knight clad in ill-fitting armor? What is his motivation to suddenly enter the tournament and defeat only those 3 knights? It was Lyanna who confronted their squires.

And I'm not sure how old Ned was at the tourney, but I'm pretty sure he was not so young that he would be "short of stature".

If he wore his own armor, it wouldn't be such a mystery.

His motivation would be to look out for his fathers bannerman who was shamed earlier.

I just don't think "short of stature" is conclusive enough to dismiss ned completely.

Juuust my opinions...not conclusive either... :)

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If he wore his own armor, it wouldn't be such a mystery.

His motivation would be to look out for his fathers bannerman who was shamed earlier.

I just don't think "short of stature" is conclusive enough to dismiss ned completely.

Juuust my opinions...not conclusive either... :)

Then if he's just looking out for his father's bannerman, why the need for "mystery"? Wouldn't he want all his bannermen to actually know that he's looking out for them? Seems kind of underhanded and out of character for Ned IMO. But in the case of Lyanna, the "mystery" would make sense. She's a girl and wouldn't be allowed to enter if her identity was revealed :)

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Even if it were Ned (which would suppose he was somehow a late bloomer and still small at age 18?) he would simply fight as himself-- what on earth would be his motivation to disguise himself in ill fitting armor? As himself he would be easily able to justify shaming the squires who attacked his father's bannerman. Much more his style, I'd say.

The wiki says that Lyanna was "kidnapped" shortly after the tourney. This is followed in quick succession by Brandon and Rickard being killed by Aerys in King's Landing (Brandon was "on his way to Winterfell" when he heard of his sister's disappearance and turned around and when straight to KL seeking out Rhaegar)and the start of Robert's Rebellion, which is given as 282. No reason to suppose Harrenhal wasn't late in 281 which would fit perfectly with Jaime being born late 266 and 15 at the time of the tourney. Assuming a little less than a year passes before the Sack and TOJ (maybe more along the lines of, oh I don't know, nine months?) Lyanna is 16 when she dies and almost 15 at tourney.

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Lady G: i dont really care to argue the knights identity anymore since neither of us will budge. i do have some questions.

1. when was it said that lyanna fought the squires?

2. what does it matter that she beat up benjen?

1. Here:

"A wolf on four legs, or two?"

"Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

Lyanna laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. She did beat them up.

2. It confirms that Lyanna was indeed trained at arms, even without her father's consent. It also lends additional plausibility to the theory that she was the KotLT.

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