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Knight of the Laughing Tree


Anvik

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Why Rhaegar did not consider the possibility of the revolt when he "abducted" Lyanna? If he considered the possibility of the revolt in case of Lyanna's execution.

Lyanna's abduction did not lead to the rebellion. Noone called banners because of that, not even House Stark. Rebellion started because Aerys (allegedly) asked for Ned's and Robert's heads, Jon Arryn refused and called his banners.

It's interesting to note that noone (in-book) actually questions Aerys' reason (or rather it's legitimacy) for executing Brandon and Rickard Stark just the cruelty of the means of execution.

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Lyanna's abduction did not lead to the rebellion. Noone called banners because of that, not even House Stark. Rebellion started because Aerys (allegedly) asked for Ned's and Robert's heads, Jon Arryn refused and called his banners.

I know that. I think Rhaegar did not consider a possibility of the revolt in the North because he did not considered consequences of the "abduction". He just simply tried to protect the KotLT from Aerys rage.

It's interesting to note that noone (in-book) actually questions Aerys' reason (or rather it's legitimacy) for executing Brandon and Rickard Stark just the cruelty of the means of execution.

Usurpers usually show the lost side in their propaganda as evil. Example in the reality: Richard III Plantagenet.
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Lyanna's abduction did not lead to the rebellion. Noone called banners because of that, not even House Stark. Rebellion started because Aerys (allegedly) asked for Ned's and Robert's heads, Jon Arryn refused and called his banners.

It's interesting to note that noone (in-book) actually questions Aerys' reason (or rather it's legitimacy) for executing Brandon and Rickard Stark just the cruelty of the means of execution.

Eh... part and parcel.

Lyanna's "abduction" supposedly led Brandon Stark to ride to the Red Keep and demand Rhaegar "come out and die." Aerys called this treason (which in some ways, it kind of is), arrested him and his entourage (ordered their fathers to appear), and then killed them all. Then demanded the heads of Ned and Robert, at which point Jon Arryn revolted and started the rebellion.

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True, but I doubt she could have held a lance up.

I seem to have the advantage of many on this forum in having actually seen and held a tourney lance. They were made of wood and some ten to twelve feet long, which is to say, they were about twice as tall as Lyanna herself would have been. It's not just a question of mass, but how it's distributed -- very awkwardly, in a way that demands considerable upper-body strength.

Picture what I'm describing. Picture keeping something ten feet long parallel to the ground, using one arm, just by holding it on one end.

Picture doing this while riding a horse, skillfully enough to overthrow three knights in a row, while wearing ill-fitting, unfamiliar armor.

It may be there is a fifteen year old girl capable of such a thing, but I have certainly never met one. I don't think, of the many hundreds of women and girls I know, there is even one who could bench press her body weight a dozen times, or do thirty real pushups in a row (not knee pushups, but straight-back real ones). If you are female, try it yourself and see. Men and women are really remarkably different.

Now, it's true that Martin's world varies from ours in this matter. For instance, Brienne exists there; she has no remote parallel in ours. She would be in my top ten talents with a broadsword from the series -- good enough to go toe-to-toe with the Kingslayer for an extended period. (In our world, I don't believe you could find a woman in the top ten thousand. Not with a two-handed broadsword; it's just too heavy and ungainly.)

However, Brienne is visually extraordinary, too. She has the shoulders, chest, back, and upper arms to get the job done and Martin characterizes her as a "freak." Lyanna... not so much. We have no such reason to believe she was similarly gifted with a mutant-class upper body.

On these grounds alone, I am dubious of Lyanna as a real candidate. Can't rule her out, but I am dubious.

Sorry, but thats an irrelevant argument.

It doesn't matter what the real world is like, GRRM explicitly tells us on several occasions that jousting is all about horsemanship, not strength. And that Lyanna is a superlative horsewoman.

And he has 10 year old boys jousting (Barristan) - if a 10 year old boy, however exceptional, why not a 14 year old girl?

And he shows us a slight 16 year old defeating an 8 foot giant.

On the subject of Howland Reed, it's true he is small, but I suspect a grown man of his age then -- perhaps twenty -- would have been able to hold the lance steady, at least. Could he ride skillfully enough? Not sure. Perhaps not, under normal conditions.

He tells us himself that he can't.

He already turns down the opportunity to do so, because he is afraid of embarrassing himself and his family.

Have you not bothered to read any of this stuff?

However, if he could warg -- enough to influence the other rider's horse -- that would be such a tremendous advantage in jousting as to overwhelm any opposition. Just a little nudge at the right moment would be quite enough. (What Loras did, in picking a mare in heat to influence the Mountain's horse and thus dramatically improve his own chances, was rather similar.)

Do we know Reed had any such talent? Not really. However, the connection between crannogmen and special capabilities is noted, and rather resembles the connection the Starks have.

We are specifically told he is not a greenseer, and warging is not a crannogman skill. If you are going to just will-nilly invent stuff, then it might as well have been little Lady Ermesand operating from before her birth, mystically.

Beyond that, we have the booming voice. Supernatural or not? You can make a case either way. I think it was. Of all reasonable candidates, Howland is the only one we might plausibly assume had the magic chops to do it.

Supernatural? Thats ridiculous. Its from inside a closed helm. Thats what makes a voice booming, naturally. And helps disguise a womans voice so that Brienne, making no effort to disguise her voice, is mistaken for a man when she speaks from inside a closed helm.

Anyone making the slightest effort to deepen and disguise their voice will have a booming voice from inside a closed helm, 100% naturally.

There is also the matter of the sigil. It's true a weirwood could plausibly be used by a Stark, but it would be less than ideal. Wolves... ice... holdfasts covered in snow... any of these would be more natural choices.

On the other hand, a crannogman who had just returned from the Isle of Faces, and who had the night before prayed to the old gods, would see a weirwood as the perfect selection.

As would Lyanna, who needs to hide her identity and not use wolves, ice etc, and is doing this on behalf of the little crannogman.

And who has the character to make it a laughing weirwood face as well.

Could such prayers have, as Meera explicitly stated, "lent strength" to his arm via the old gods? Possibly. This is far from clear.

The Old Gods acting directly this way, instead of indirectly, such as through Lyanna, or Direwolf puppies, etc, really belongs in Dragonlance or something similar.

GRRMs Old Gods simply don't act this way. Its dubious whether any of his gods act this way.

I do find it very suggestive, though, that Howland Reed miraculously survived a mortal battle with the White Bull, Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne, and is explicitly said to have saved Ned Stark from certain death at Dayne's hands. This is not a matter of debate, but clearly established in the text.

There is nothing miraculous about it though. 5 of 7 died. And saving Ned Stark from death doesn't require super skillz, just something small at the right time and place.

Indeed, the fact that he did survive, if anything, is an indicator that he didn;t have great skillz and wasn;t part of the main combat.

So we do know that despite no apparent prior training in combat, Reed had, on that occasion at least, high-order combat capabilities of some sort, for sure, or he'd have died lickety-split. Most likely before any other of Ned's group.

We know know such thing. The most likely explanation is that he was still a much weaker combatant than the others and so stayed on the periphery of the fight, leaving three 2-on-1 combats and helping where he could safely, or with non-combat type skills.

OTOH, he's been with Ned at war for around a year, so certain to have acquired more combat skills than he had at Harrenhal, even if he won't be up to the standard of the much larger warriors who have trained at arms their entire lives.

Finally, I think Reed had the greatest desire to kick some ass. Lyanna had (supposedly) defeated three squires with a wooden sword, a humiliation for them if it happened (though I think as has been suggested, it didn't -- they knew she was a Stark because she screamed "that's my father's man you're kicking" and so they didn't really try to fight back for that reason).

I agree that the three squires didn't put up much fight.

But there is no evidence HR had more desire than Lyanna to 'right the wrong'. In fact, he wanted to, but knew he wasn't up to it.

Reed, though... he would have been really crushed. My guess is he yearned to get his own back. So I think he had by far the strongest motive to be the Knight.

No more so than Lyanna, who clearly burns for justice, is wild and impulsive, inclined towards fighting, and backs herself without a thought.

As opposed to someone who has already been offered the opportunity to be the knight and turned it down because he knew he wasn't capable.

So in conclusion, Howland Reed strikes me as the best candidate for the KotLT... but I couldn't rule out Lyanna either. You could make a case for her upper-body strength by assuming any prayers to the old gods could conceivably have been made on behalf of Lyanna too, I suppose. In that scenario, Howland did the praying; Lyanna did the receiving. It's possible.

I would only say I find Reed a considerably more likely explanation.

Its very simple.

HR does not have the appropriate skills.

HR already had the opportunity to be the Knight and turned it down.

Its very clearly a House Stark story, not a House Reed story, as evidenced by the three times Jojen, still disbelieving, asks Bran if he is sure he hadn't heard this story many times before.

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Then you figure that Rhaegar was the one assigned to chase the guy down and find out who he was. That gives us the perfect explanation for what happened — Rhaegar found out it was Lyanna, and that was how they met. He became infatuated with her and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty, either to recognize her jousting skill, to "consummate" his infatuation, or both.

Oh, wow, a Hollywood-style Meet Cute! That's so adorable. I actually laughed out loud imagining this.

Rhaegar: I have found you, Knight! Now I unmask you!

Lyanna: (blushes) Oh, no! I am unmasked!

Rhaegar: Your beauty astonishes me! I must have you!

Lyanna: Ditto!

Rhaegar: But it's not just superficial! I so love your freakish upper body strength, courage, and horsemanship!

Lyanna: OMG, you can totally sing and are a beast lyre player! My soulmate!

Rhaegar: But what about your fiance... erm, what's-his-face... Robert? What about my wife? My children? And the stability of the Seven Kingdoms? You see, my darling... we might create a civil war! That could mean mass death!

(long pause)

Lyanna: Robert who? What wife? What children? Who *cares* about mass death?

Rhaegar: Excellent points, dude!

Lyanna: All that matters is that we kiss immediately!

And so they did, for the rest of their lives!

...one year, which ended when Rhaegar died with her name on his lips and a hammer in his chest. (He was a casualty of the civil war they had created, and part of the mass death.)

Meanwhile, Lyanna died quite independently of what appears to have been complications of childbirth.

By a stupendous, Hollywood-style coincidence that no one was ever able to explain, her brother Ned rode to rescue her the same day that she gave birth and died...

...or else she had given birth days or weeks before, and Wylla, her attendant, couldn't be bothered to change the sheets in Lyanna's bed of blood.

Not quite so Hollywood, but it does have that gritty, edgy thing that's so in vogue these days.

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Oh, wow, a Hollywood-style Meet Cute! That's so adorable. I actually laughed out loud imagining this.

Rhaegar: I have found you, Knight! Now I unmask you!

Lyanna: (blushes) Oh, no! I am unmasked!

Rhaegar: Your beauty astonishes me! I must have you!

Lyanna: Ditto!

Rhaegar: But it's not just superficial! I so love your freakish upper body strength, courage, and horsemanship!

Lyanna: OMG, you can totally sing and are a beast lyre player! My soulmate!

Rhaegar: But what about your fiance... erm, what's-his-face... Robert? What about my wife? My children? And the stability of the Seven Kingdoms? You see, my darling... we might create a civil war! That could mean mass death!

(long pause)

Lyanna: Robert who? What wife? What children? Who *cares* about mass death?

Rhaegar: Excellent points, dude!

Lyanna: All that matters is that we kiss immediately!

And so they did, for the rest of their lives!

...one year, which ended when Rhaegar died with her name on his lips and a hammer in his chest. (He was a casualty of the civil war they had created, and part of the mass death.)

Meanwhile, Lyanna died quite independently of what appears to have been complications of childbirth.

By a stupendous, Hollywood-style coincidence that no one was ever able to explain, her brother Ned rode to rescue her the same day that she gave birth and died...

...or else she had given birth days or weeks before, and Wylla, her attendant, couldn't be bothered to change the sheets in Lyanna's bed of blood.

Not quite so Hollywood, but it does have that gritty, edgy thing that's so in vogue these days.

Erm, this was very funny. Seriously, made me laugh out loud :D

Just want to add two thoughts:

-GRRM was first a Holllywood writer/producer

-There are conditions related to childbirth which can lead to death by bleeding days or weeks after delivery, so not necessarily as ridiculous as it seems. Although I must admit that Ned's arrival in the nick of time the day (or day before) she died does seem like a fictional construct. ;)

Edit- sounded terribly sarcastic & not meant that way, ironic yes! Apologies :)

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@corbon: Ive already given reasons for why I think the lyanna theory is bull, so i'll just point out that I never said that ned was small.

Do you even think about what you say? First you claim full plate is needed during jousting. Then say that you didn't realize full late was needed for jousting. Then you try to claim that those two posts were focused on two different people in two different locations, but the posts are about whether plate armor is needed when jousting, not who jousting or where they are. Then you say that Ned is the most likely candidate for the KotLT because he is of small stature, then try to claim that you never said Ned was small.

You are entertaining even if your rambling doesn't make much sense.

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Do you even think about what you say? First you claim full plate is needed during jousting.

I said that lyanna would need to be able to joust in full plate armor:

Neither did Lyanna... they were jousting. She needs to be able to hold a lance up. The force comes mostly from the speed of the horse.

she needs to be able to ride well in plate and withstand the force of the impact.

Then say that you didn't realize full plate was needed for jousting. Then you try to claim that those two posts were focused on two different people in two different locations, but the posts are about whether plate armor is needed when jousting, not who jousting or where they are.
here is the line of posts:

her gender and age together (but mostly her gender) certainly do disqualify her from this, imo.

Read the Arianne sample chapter! lol

@whoever: they dont even wear plate armor in dorne.

i clearly dismissed the info from the arianne sample due to the character's location.

You seriously think there are people crazy enough to joust without armor ??? It is one thing for regular troops not to use armor because of the heat. It is another not to use it when absolutely necessary for one's safety for short periods of time.

i wasnt aware that full plate armor was required to joust.

same line of posts. it should be obvious that i am speaking of jousting in dorne and not of lyanna competing in a tourney.

Then you say that Ned is the most likely candidate for the KotLT because he is of small stature, then try to claim that you never said Ned was small.
when did i say he was a candidate because of his size? here is what i said about the knights small stature:

i think the knights small stature is just meera leaving open the magic option for bran.

when did i say that ned was small?
You are entertaining even if your rambling doesn't make much sense.

i still dont really get how the line of posts is so difficult to follow but this should help you to uderstand.
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Do you even think about what you say? First you claim full plate is needed during jousting. Then say that you didn't realize full late was needed for jousting. Then you try to claim that those two posts were focused on two different people in two different locations, but the posts are about whether plate armor is needed when jousting, not who jousting or where they are. Then you say that Ned is the most likely candidate for the KotLT because he is of small stature, then try to claim that you never said Ned was small.

You are entertaining even if your rambling doesn't make much sense.

I'm going to suggest you not bother.

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i dont believe that a 14 year old girl can best knights. I also dont believe that noone at the tourney can recognize a girls voice.

he was described as short in meera's story and ned is a more logical choice.

no, i dont want it to be lyanna. i think its a dumb idea.

You use the adjective short, but the phrase that Meera actually uses is short in stature, which means he was small, not just shorter. Ned is not short, nor is he ever described as small in stature. So, when you try to make Ned fit the description, you are indeed saying he was small.

Jousting is jousting no matter where it takes place, either at Harrenhall or in Dorne, so proper protection is required when jousting. Your responses are 1) "she needs to be able to ride well in plate and withstand the force of the impact" and 2) "i wasnt aware that full plate armor was required to joust."

Even though you are speaking of Lyanna the same thing applies to everyone who jousts. They all have to be able to ride well in plate and absorb the impact of jousting. That does not change regardless of who is on the horse. Then is it suggested to you to read Arianne's chapter, but obviously you don't because it contains information provided by the author that directly refutes the basis of your argument of Lyanna's size, age, and gender prevent her from being the KotLT. So you say: "i clearly dismissed the info from the arianne sample due to the character's location." You are the one that initially brought up the idea that plate is required for jousting, then you act astonished that plate would be used for jousting. If they don't wear plate in Dorne when jousting, what do they wear? They prefer a lighter armor during one on one combat, but we are never told what they wear during tournament, unless it is in the Arianne chapter. Your defense that you are referring to Lyanna in one post and Dorne in the other does not hold water because jousting is jousting and the same protection is needed no matter where you are when you are fly down the tilt on horseback with someone trying to hit you in the chest with a long wooden spear.

I'm going to suggest you not bother.

It is too tempting when someone has talked themselves in circles and can't keep straight what they have said. We have all done it in similar discussions, so it isn't really a big deal. Admit/accept you mis-spoke and go on with life. You draw attention to yourself when you won't accept you messed up and keep arguing with 3-5 people who have pointed out your mistake.

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Holy hell people really fight against Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree for asinine reasons.

I'll ask the question I asked a few months ago again; why would Jojen expect Bran to know this story if Howland Reed was KoTLT? And why would Ned not tell his children this story if the KoTLT was himself, Benjen or Brandon?

Moreover, why is Martin bothering to spend the better part of a Bran chapter on this story if he's not setting up the background for R+L=J ("but that's a sadder story").

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I have never really given this much thought, seeing as how imo the hints all points in the direction of Lyanna being the KoTLT. I dont think that the idea that Howland is the KoTLT holds much weight, as it would pretty much ruin the backstory to Lyanna and Rhaegar meeting eachother etc..

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You use the adjective short, but the phrase that Meera actually uses is short in stature, which means he was small, not just shorter. Ned is not short, nor is he ever described as small in stature. So, when you try to make Ned fit the description, you are indeed saying he was small.

Now I can see why you would be confused by this. When I said that he was described as short in meera's story, i meant that he was only described as short in meera's story; I meant that the knights short stature wasnt a fact.
Jousting is jousting no matter where it takes place, either at Harrenhall or in Dorne, so proper protection is required when jousting. Your responses are 1) "she needs to be able to ride well in plate and withstand the force of the impact" and 2) "i wasnt aware that full plate armor was required to joust."

Even though you are speaking of Lyanna the same thing applies to everyone who jousts. They all have to be able to ride well in plate and absorb the impact of jousting. That does not change regardless of who is on the horse. Then is it suggested to you to read Arianne's chapter, but obviously you don't because it contains information provided by the author that directly refutes the basis of your argument of Lyanna's size, age, and gender prevent her from being the KotLT. So you say: "i clearly dismissed the info from the arianne sample due to the character's location." You are the one that initially brought up the idea that plate is required for jousting, then you act astonished that plate would be used for jousting. If they don't wear plate in Dorne when jousting, what do they wear? They prefer a lighter armor during one on one combat, but we are never told what they wear during tournament, unless it is in the Arianne chapter. Your defense that you are referring to Lyanna in one post and Dorne in the other does not hold water because jousting is jousting and the same protection is needed no matter where you are when you are fly down the tilt on horseback with someone trying to hit you in the chest with a long wooden spear.

It is too tempting when someone has talked themselves in circles and can't keep straight what they have said. We have all done it in similar discussions, so it isn't really a big deal. Admit/accept you mis-spoke and go on with life. You draw attention to yourself when you won't accept you messed up and keep arguing with 3-5 people who have pointed out your mistake.

The rest of your post was unnecessary. I'm already done arguing the knights identity in this thread.
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Now I can see why you would be confused by this. When I said that he was described as short in meera's story, i meant that he was only described as short in meera's story; I meant that the knights short stature wasnt a fact.

Then we have no facts about the Knight of the Laughing Tree at all! It could be anybody! Gregor Clegane, Mace Tyrell, Donella Hornwood, the Ghost of High Heart, Jinglebell, anybody. If we can't trust facts that are not independently confirmed outside of Meera's story, we have literally nothing to go on. That story is the only source of information about the KotLT.

Since we don't want to descend into absurdity, let's just accept everything in Meera's story instead of picking and choosing to suit, eh? I appreciate that's inconvenient if you want to believe that it was Ned, but them's the breaks.

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Then we have no facts about the Knight of the Laughing Tree at all! It could be anybody! Gregor Clegane, Mace Tyrell, Donella Hornwood, the Ghost of High Heart, Jinglebell, anybody. If we can't trust facts that are not independently confirmed outside of Meera's story, we have literally nothing to go on. That story is the only source of information about the KotLT.

Since we don't want to descend into absurdity, let's just accept everything in Meera's story instead of picking and choosing to suit, eh? I appreciate that's inconvenient if you want to believe that it was Ned, but them's the breaks.

+1

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Since we don't want to descend into absurdity, let's just accept everything in Meera's story instead of picking and choosing to suit, eh?

or we can come to logical rationalizations. i find the idea of lyanna competing to be more absurd than the thought that a girl can tweak a story.
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