Knight of the Laughing Tree

[mormont]

or we can come to logical rationalizations. i find the idea of lyanna competing to be more absurd than the thought that a girl can tweak a story.

What's 'logical' about the idea that Meera 'tweaked' the story to make the KotLT short?

There is no evidence to suggest that she did so, so there's no logical reason to believe that she did. There is no credible motivation for her to do so, so again, it's not logical to believe she did. And if she did 'tweak' this particular detail, there's no logical reason to believe that any other detail in the story is reliable either.

The only 'logical' reason to believe that Meera changed this detail is if you are so desperate that the KotLT should be Ned, you are actually willing to flat out make things up. And once you reach that point, you're beyond reason. There's really not much point in discussing it.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

What's 'logical' about the idea that Meera 'tweaked' the story to make the KotLT short?

There is no evidence to suggest that she did so, so there's no logical reason to believe that she did. There is no credible motivation for her to do so, so again, it's not logical to believe she did. And if she did 'tweak' this particular detail, there's no logical reason to believe that any other detail in the story is reliable either.

The only 'logical' reason to believe that Meera changed this detail is if you are so desperate that the KotLT should be Ned, you are actually willing to flat out make things up. And once you reach that point, you're beyond reason. There's really not much point in discussing it.

I think the point of "logical rationalizations" was that given two choices - 1) a young girl lied/tweaked/changed a detail of a story, and 2) a young girl was able to defeat three knights in a jousting tournament - the former requires less suspension of disbelief. And I think that's true in our own world (we've all known people too tweak stories, but a young girl jousting is a whole no other issue)... but in GRRM's world, it seems very possible that a young girl could joust and the world of literature, why bother writing this story with no other confirmation if we can't trust any of it.

[Naathi Prince]

Loras Tyrell is barely older than Lyanna Stark when he nearly wins the Hand's Tourney

[Vuron]

Arguing that Lyanna couldn't be the KotLT because she's a young woman is rather pointless. Whether it's possible in REAL LIFE for a 14-16 girl to joust in full plate, is debatable, but that is not the question here. As many have pointed out in this thread, there are multiple references in the text that state she can, according to the author.

If you need further proof, simply read the Arianne spoiler chapter for TWoW to see that a 14yo girl can joust, according to GRRM.

Real life doesn't always mirror the text. This brings back memories of argument that Drogo couldn't have melted the gold to crown Viserys.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Arguing that Lyanna couldn't be the KotLT because she's a young woman is rather pointless. Whether it's possible in REAL LIFE for a 14-16 girl to joust in full plate, is debatable, but that is not the question here. As many have pointed out in this thread, there are multiple references in the text that state she can, according to the author.

If you need further proof, simply read the Arianne spoiler chapter for TWoW to see that a 14yo girl can joust, according to GRRM.

Real life doesn't always mirror the text. This brings back memories of argument that Drogo couldn't have melted the gold to crown Viserys.

As I mentioned in another thread when someone thought some detail was improbable- sometimes these things almost seem like -gasp!- fictional constructs!

:P

[Dr. Pepper]

or we can come to logical rationalizations. i find the idea of lyanna competing to be more absurd than the thought that a girl can tweak a story.

That might possibly be a logical rationalization had Jojen not kept asking Bran if he was sure he hadn't already heard this story. There's also the parts where Jojen seems to speak up when Meera does appear to be tweaking the story. "Or not."

[the trees have eyes]

There is clear evidence it was not Howland Reed.

Which is totally illogical, given that the Reed kids expected Bran to know the story and were astonished he did not. Its clearly a House Stark story, not a House Reed story.

I have no desire to delve back into this little flamewar but I have to ask:

Why do you keep insisting that it is a House Stark Story not a House Reed Story when it is Meera who tells the story to Bran and both the Reed children know it off by heart and Bran has never heard it (and I assume none of the other Stark children either)?

A member of house Reed tells a story from the point of view of a Crannogman (who is clearly their father) who is at the heart of events but you still think this is a House Stark story?

[The guy from the Vale]

Because the Reed children assume Bran knows the story. They are constantly asking Bran if he is sure he was never told about it. If it was only about Howland, it truly would be a Reed story, and they would have no reason to be surprised that Bran doesn't know about it.

It's also curious because it makes clear that Ned, as loving a father as he was, kept mum about a number of issues. Apparently, he didn't tell his children anything that could have possibly connected Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[SeanSnow]

I think its safe to say the Crannog-man is Howland Reed and told the story of his experience to his children.

From the way the story is told(POV crannog-man) it can also be assumed that TKOTLT is not the crannog-man.

[the trees have eyes]

Because the Reed children assume Bran knows the story. They are constantly asking Bran if he is sure he was never told about it. If it was only about Howland, it truly would be a Reed story, and they would have no reason to be surprised that Bran doesn't know about it.

It's also curious because it makes clear that Ned, as loving a father as he was, kept mum about a number of issues. Apparently, he didn't tell his children anything that could have possibly connected Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Yes, they assume Bran knows and are surprised he doesn't. But if it is a House Stark story why do the Reeds know it in detail?

Well because their father is the Crannogman who is at the heart of the story of course. Leaving aside the identity of the KotLT the story is as much a part of the heritage of House Reed as House Stark.

Indeed as Ned hardly figures it is more relevant to Howland's children than to Ned's. And if Lyanna is KotLT it still makes more sense that Howland would tell his children about his big adventure than Ned would about the aunt they never knew and the Crannogman they have never met.

So it seems far more likely that it is a House Reed story.

You can argue it is a House Stark story but as Ned loved Lyanna and rarely spoke about her it is hardly likely to have been a story spoken in Winterfell - certainly he never told it to his children (or to Bran at least). It also seems unlikely to me that Howland Reed, one of Ned's closest friends, would allow a House Stark story that was a painful memory for Ned to be told in Greywater Watch or tell it to his children himself.

But if it is a House Reed story then, yeah, "gather round children and hear about when your father went to the Isle of Faces and to the great Tourney at Harrenhal" makes more sense to me.

[The guy from the Vale]

I agree, but that is largely the point. It's a story about a member of House Stark (Lyanna) and a member of House Reed (Howland) and how they became friends, in some way. It's also much more.

The fact that Ned doesn't tell his children House Stark stories should raise eyebrows though. It hints at a larger mystery that Ned wanted to hide, i.e., R+L=J. A love story of anykind between Rhaegar and Lyanna would spark too many questions he can't answer. In fact, it was this story that, for me, confirmed R+L=J more than any other detail in the books, simply because wondering why Ned didn't tell this to anyone leads one down the path to that mystery.

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

It also seems unlikely to me that Howland Reed, one of Ned's closest friends, would allow a House Stark story that was a painful memory for Ned to be told in Greywater Watch or tell it to his children himself.

snip

Ned and Howland are "close friends." But why are the good friends? They did not grow up together and little to no interaction between them for the last 15 years. They likely did not even meet before Harrenhal. What would have gotten Howland to come out from the Neck and join the Robellion? Maybe something to do with his friend Lyanna Stark?

I agree, but that is largely the point. It's a story about a member of House Stark (Lyanna) and a member of House Reed (Howland) and how they became friends, in some way. It's also much more.

[the trees have eyes]

I agree, but that is largely the point. It's a story about a member of House Stark (Lyanna) and a member of House Reed (Howland) and how they became friends, in some way. It's also much more.

The fact that Ned doesn't tell his children House Stark stories should raise eyebrows though. It hints at a larger mystery that Ned wanted to hide, i.e., R+L=J. A love story of anykind between Rhaegar and Lyanna would spark too many questions he can't answer. In fact, it was this story that, for me, confirmed R+L=J more than any other detail in the books, simply because wondering why Ned didn't tell this to anyone leads one down the path to that mystery.

I don't really agree with this. Bran is young and really all he knows now is that his grandfather, uncle and aunt all died before he was born and that this makes his father sad and so he rarely talks of them.

When he is older he will learn exactly what happened with Robert's rebellion and what triggered it.

Ned isn't hiding the mystery of Jon's identity from his very young children, he is protecting them from the grisly details of the death of their family members. The readers (at least on this forum) are in the know about the secret but even when Bran is old enough to hear the story of Robert's rebellion and reinterpret the tale of the KotLT there is no big red arrow cross hanging over Jon's head. No one in Westeros over the last 15 odd years has guessed who Jon is and Bran has no reason to think that Jon is not who his father tells him - his bastard brother rather than his cousin.

As you say it is a signal from GRRM to his readers not an attempt at secrecy by Ned to keep the lid on it. No one knows there is anything to keep a lid on.

Still don't see why this is considered a "House Stark" story that is passed down by the Reeds and no one else. It still feels like a House Reed story told about the adventures of Howland Reed...that is also used by GRRM to hint to his audience at how Rhaegar and Lyanna met.

[The guy from the Vale]

It's a House Stark story because a House Stark member - Lyanna - is the hero of said story.

And once Ned tells this story to Bran, the other children will also hear of it. And Cat, most of all. Do you think Cat wouldn't have been able to figure out what that story meant? And the last thing Ned wanted Cat to do was thinking about Lyanna. It might have led her to come to the right conclusions about Jon.

[the trees have eyes]

snip

snip

Ned and Howland are "close friends." But why are the good friends? They did not grow up together and little to no interaction between them for the last 15 years. They likely did not even meet before Harrenhal. What would have gotten Howland to come out from the Neck and join the Robellion? Maybe something to do with his friend Lyanna Stark?

How many days were they all at the Tourney together? Was there ample time for them to form friendships? Or was it over in a few days?

It's possible Howland came away with a strong bond with Lyanna but its more likely he formed a strong friendship with Ned during the fighting in the rebellion (which lasted a year or so i think?).

Howland was one of the seven that aced off with the KG at the ToJ. That seems to me that it means he was one of Ned's closest companions, something made all the more so by the other 5 dying. It doesn't necessarily say that Howland had a stronger bond with Lyanna than Martin Cassell or Lord Dustin or any of the others with Ned.

[The guy from the Vale]

You are forgetting that Lyanna saved Howland from the squires, and on top of that defended his honor. It wasn't a long time, but Lyanna pretty much did everything she could for Howland, and then some. If he didn't feel indebted to her after she put her life on the line for his honor, I don't know what he could feel indebted for.

ETA: Ethan Glover and Howland Reed are the two curious members of Ned's crew to the ToJ. Neither is a good fighter, Howland because of his background, Ethan because he's far too young. But both have close connections to the events that led to the war - Howland to Rhaegar and Lyanna meeting, and Ethan to Brandon's ill-fated attempt to 'rescue' (?) Lyanna. They'd also both have a certain guilt over the events. I don't think Ned chose any of his companions because they were awesome fighters - he did so because he could trust them with Lyanna's suspected secret.

[the trees have eyes]

It's a House Stark story because a House Stark member - Lyanna - is the hero of said story.

And once Ned tells this story to Bran, the other children will also hear of it. And Cat, most of all. Do you think Cat wouldn't have been able to figure out what that story meant? And the last thing Ned wanted Cat to do was thinking about Lyanna. It might have led her to come to the right conclusions about Jon.

This is kind of the point.

The story is told by a member of House Reed and it is told from the point of view of a Crannogman - her father - who travels from the Neck to the Isle of Faces and on his return has some adventures at Harrenhal.

The hero of the story is a mystery who is not revealed to be a Stark despite the conviction on this forum that it must be Lyanna and the story is not afterwards told by House Stark. The story is only told by House Reed.

So I asked the question why people say "it is not a House Reed story, its a House Stark story".

It IS about Howland and he tells it to his children.

It is about the young, quiet, wild and she wolves but the quiet wolf never tells it to anyone.

[Ser Leftwich]

How many days were they all at the Tourney together? Was there ample time for them to form friendships? Or was it over in a few days?

Read somewhere that the Tourney was 10 days, but I have not seen a footnote/confirmation of that.

It's possible Howland came away with a strong bond with Lyanna but its more likely he formed a strong friendship with Ned during the fighting in the rebellion (which lasted a year or so i think?).

Lyanna is the one who saves Howland and insists on his high seat at the table. I think that he and Ned did become close over the Robellion, but they bonded over Lyanna.

Howland was one of the seven that aced off with the KG at the ToJ. That seems to me that it means he was one of Ned's closest companions, something made all the more so by the other 5 dying. It doesn't necessarily say that Howland had a stronger bond with Lyanna than Martin Cassell or Lord Dustin or any of the others with Ned.

Above, in that Ned could trust them. (On the wacko end of things, I think Ethan learned something about the ToJ while a captive in KL during the war, which is why he was along. That and guilt about the Brandon incident.)

Why can't the story be about the Starks and the Reeds? And remember, at the end, there is that other "sadder story."

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't think Ned would have told the story the way Meera would have. In that sense, yes, the story is pure Reed. However, Jojen and Meera were surprised that Bran didn't recognize the story - they expected Bran to say, at one point "Oh, I know that story! It's the time Lyanna jousted to redeem Howland Reed!" or anything to that effect. They thought Ned would have told his children about that event, in his own terms, but still. Simply because it is a story about a Stark, his sister. The Reeds don't know about Ned's silence on Lyanna.

I think where you don't understand the meaning of 'Stark story' is that it must mean that the Stark children must know it. None of them does. What people mean by 'Stark story' is that it's a story where one of the main characters - even the hero - is a Stark.

[the trees have eyes]

You are forgetting that Lyanna saved Howland from the squires, and on top of that defended his honor. It wasn't a long time, but Lyanna pretty much did everything she could for Howland, and then some. If he didn't feel indebted to her after she put her life on the line for his honor, I don't know what he could feel indebted for.

ETA: Ethan Glover and Howland Reed are the two curious members of Ned's crew to the ToJ. Neither is a good fighter, Howland because of his background, Ethan because he's far too young. But both have close connections to the events that led to the war - Howland to Rhaegar and Lyanna meeting, and Ethan to Brandon's ill-fated attempt to 'rescue' (?) Lyanna. They'd also both have a certain guilt over the events. I don't think Ned chose any of his companions because they were awesome fighters - he did so because he could trust them with Lyanna's suspected secret.

That is an interesting point about how he chose his men. I assumed he chose his closest companions and with the exception of Martyn Cassell who was Winterfell's master at arms, I assumed they were all highborn lords and noblemen - Glover, Reed, Dustin all are. Likely he could and did trust all these men completely but did he know Lyanna's secret himself when he went south to bring her back? I always assumed not.

I think people big Lyanna up a bit because of her tragic end. I don't disagree that she is portrayed as a strong character but I think you sell Ned a bit short when you assume Howland became his friend because of his friendship with Lyanna. Ned had a gift for inspiring loyalty in his followers and i think a year of warfare would have cemented his friendship with Howland. Also, Howland didn't come out of the Neck during Robert's rebellion for Lyanna, he came because House Reed is sworn to House Stark and Ned called his banners.