Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Ser Leftwich]

Also, Howland didn't come out of the Neck during Robert's rebellion for Lyanna, he came because House Reed is sworn to House Stark and Ned called his banners.

How do we know this? Are there any other crangogmen we know of in the Robellion? Howland going out to join the Northern army as it is going south is just a reasonable.

The Reed's don't answer Robb's call in AGoT and Robb marchs right through the Neck. ETA: Did Robb send word to the Reed's to guard the Neck from invasion from the south? Also, Robb left some bowmen at Moat Cailin, IIRC.

Unrelated question: Howland was not the Lord of House Reed during the war, right? Presumably his father was still alive and has passed away in the interval. (Meera was born before the Robellion, which would put Howland about 18-20 years old at the beginning of the Robellion.)

[the trees have eyes]

I don't think Ned would have told the story the way Meera would have. In that sense, yes, the story is pure Reed. However, Jojen and Meera were surprised that Bran didn't recognize the story - they expected Bran to say, at one point "Oh, I know that story! It's the time Lyanna jousted to redeem Howland Reed!" or anything to that effect. They thought Ned would have told his children about that event, in his own terms, but still. Simply because it is a story about a Stark, his sister. The Reeds don't know about Ned's silence on Lyanna.

I think where you don't understand the meaning of 'Stark story' is that it must mean that the Stark children must know it. None of them does. What people mean by 'Stark story' is that it's a story where one of the main characters - even the hero - is a Stark.

Actually the meaning of Stark story is kind of the point. It is a story about the Reeds (well one at any rate) and the Starks. A poster used the argument that it was a Stark story not a Reed story to hammer their point that therefore the KotLT can only be a Stark.

I really don't want to debate the identity of the KotLT (there is enough of that) but I did ask what his basis for "STARK not REED story" was.

you have given the same backwards response. Lyanna = KotLT = Stark story. The only time we hear the story its told by a Reed about the adventures of a Reed with the appearance of a mystery knight who may be a Stark or that same Reed.

If that makes it a Stark story for some then that's fine and dandy but I am happy to remain in the minority on this one:

Go Howland, KotLT! :bowdown:

[The guy from the Vale]

But how would Ned know where to look for Lyanna? He basically found her directly after releasing the siege of Storm's End. I don't think that was a coincidence - some time either in King's Landing or at Storm's End, someone must have told him where to look for her. And that person (many assume it was Ashara Dayne) quite likely also tipped off Ned about Lyanna's background, to some degree. Again, Ned only bringing seven when he had an army at hsi disposal, and with the only two of these seven indebted to Lyanna and closely connected to the outbreak of the war, things start getting suspicious.

I don't disagree about Ned and Howland being friends anyway. But Howland didn't come to Ned's rescue when Robb called his banners. However, he did join the Wot5K. Why? Well, if he was indebted to Lyanna and wanted to help 'rescuing' her, that makes more sense than some random reason for joining or not joining wars.

ETA: If it was a pure Reed story, Jojen and Meera wouldn't expect Bran to know. Only if it is a Stark story does their disbelief of Bran not knowing the story make sense. Yes, in some way it is a backward rationalization. But it's a backward rationalization in the sense that it's a piece of information that only makes sense once you accept that Howland Reed isn't the KotLT - which he isn't given that we know, from that same story, that he couldn't ride a horse or control a lance.

[the trees have eyes]

How do we know this? Are there any other crangogmen we know of in the Robellion? Howland going out to join the Northern army as it is going south is just a reasonable.

The Reed's don't answer Robb's call in AGoT and Robb marchs right through the Neck. ETA: Did Robb send word to the Reed's to guard the Neck from invasion from the south? Also, Robb left some bowmen at Moat Cailin, IIRC.

Unrelated question: Howland was not the Lord of House Reed during the war, right? Presumably his father was still alive and has passed away in the interval. (Meera was born before the Robellion, which would put Howland about 18-20 years old at the beginning of the Robellion.)

Hmm, no I guess we never see the Crannogmen in plate and mail or even boiled leather. Ned, iirc, tells the Talllharts to place bowmen at Moat Caillin (and Manderly to fortify Whitehabour) but I don't remember the Crannogmen receiving an order to muster.

We see them harrying the Ironborn once they capture the defenses but this is guerilla not open warfare.

Interesting, i assume that they would have to provide troops - that is the primary duty of a vassal to his liege lord in a feudal system and I can't see why they would be exempt. If they won't make knights or men at arms then they could still be scouts or archers, skirmishers or foragers. But we have not seen them on a war footing.

I'm still waiting for them to row down to the Twins by night, scale the castle and free the GreatJon and any other prisoners. But Jaime has kaiboshed that by ordering the Freys to hand them over to the Crown.

[the trees have eyes]

But how would Ned know where to look for Lyanna? He basically found her directly after releasing the siege of Storm's End. I don't think that was a coincidence - some time either in King's Landing or at Storm's End, someone must have told him where to look for her. And that person (many assume it was Ashara Dayne) quite likely also tipped off Ned about Lyanna's background, to some degree. Again, Ned only bringing seven when he had an army at hsi disposal, and with the only two of these seven indebted to Lyanna and closely connected to the outbreak of the war, things start getting suspicious.

I don't disagree about Ned and Howland being friends anyway. But Howland didn't come to Ned's rescue when Robb called his banners. However, he did join the Wot5K. Why? Well, if he was indebted to Lyanna and wanted to help 'rescuing' her, that makes more sense than some random reason for joining or not joining wars.

ETA: If it was a pure Reed story, Jojen and Meera wouldn't expect Bran to know. Only if it is a Stark story does their disbelief of Bran not knowing the story make sense. Yes, in some way it is a backward rationalization. But it's a backward rationalization in the sense that it's a piece of information that only makes sense once you accept that Howland Reed isn't the KotLT - which he isn't given that we know, from that same story, that he couldn't ride a horse or control a lance.

I don't know iirc but I think Howland has not left Greywater Watch in years. He sends Meera and Jojen to Winterfell to give his fealty in his place. Why he doesn't come himself is never addressed but a principal vassal sending someone in his place rather than coming to make a personal oath is a big deal. The guy is pretty much shrouded in mystery as that is the way GRRM has decided to play it out. I don't think his reasons are random, probably there is something here connected to his visit to the isle of Faces (i think Jojen has green dreams because of how his father was affected, changed even, by the time he spent there).

I don't intend to over-egg the supernatural here but there is something about the Reeds and about Howland himself. The line about him praying to the gods the night before the joust can mean everything or nothing: it's either a well placed red herring or a big hint (this guy has just spent time with people who - if they have weirwood groves and greenseers on the isle of Faces - become or are the old gods he is praying to and have powers over every beast that ran or swam or flew) that he is going to get a helping hand the next day. Too directly interventionist for you for the way GRRM's magic / religious system works? Shadow babies are pretty directly interventionist too.

Bah, I said I wasn't going to discuss the identity of the KotLT and now look, its 2am. Time to call it. Thanks for the discussion, was interesting

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

I don't think his reasons are random, probably there is something here connected to his visit to the isle of Faces (i think Jojen has green dreams because of how his father was affected, changed even, by the time he spent there).

snip

That is genuinely something I have never read anywhere and never thought of before. Wonderful!

[mormont]

Why do you keep insisting that it is a House Stark Story not a House Reed Story when it is Meera who tells the story to Bran and both the Reed children know it off by heart and Bran has never heard it (and I assume none of the other Stark children either)?

This Stark/Reed story stuff is pretty absurd: a false dichotomy if ever there was one. It's both. Or at least, Jojen clearly considers that it ought to be, and is puzzled that Bran has never heard any Stark version of it. But the notion that it has to be either a House Reed story or a House Stark story is a bit silly: is the story of Robert's Rebellion a House Targaryen story or a House Baratheon story? Obviously it's both, and both Houses have their version. And it would be odd if one House did not tell their version.

[corbon]

Actually the meaning of Stark story is kind of the point. It is a story about the Reeds (well one at any rate) and the Starks. A poster used the argument that it was a Stark story not a Reed story to hammer their point that therefore the KotLT can only be a Stark.

I really don't want to debate the identity of the KotLT (there is enough of that) but I did ask what his basis for "STARK not REED story" was.

you have given the same backwards response. Lyanna = KotLT = Stark story. The only time we hear the story its told by a Reed about the adventures of a Reed with the appearance of a mystery knight who may be a Stark or that same Reed.

If that makes it a Stark story for some then that's fine and dandy but I am happy to remain in the minority on this one:

Go Howland, KotLT! :bowdown:

Obviously, even if it is really a House Stark story its also at least partly a House Reed story. Its coming from the Reeds, and the POV character is a crannogman. Thats so fricken obvious it goes without saying.

The reason it is clearly also a significantly House Stark story, is there is no reason for the Reeds to expect Bran to know a purely House Reed story, yet Jojen is certain Bran must know this one already. Sure, there's Starks in it, and Ned might have told something similar to his kids, but but Jojen is really certain Bran ought to know this one. Therefore its clearly supposed to be of some significance to house Stark, and the only real way it can be significant to House Stark is that the KotLT is a Stark. Nothing else is enough for Jojen to be so certain that he keeps checking, like he doesn't believe Bran telling him he'd never heard it before.

I don't know iirc but I think Howland has not left Greywater Watch in years. He sends Meera and Jojen to Winterfell to give his fealty in his place. Why he doesn't come himself is never addressed but a principal vassal sending someone in his place rather than coming to make a personal oath is a big deal. The guy is pretty much shrouded in mystery as that is the way GRRM has decided to play it out. I don't think his reasons are random, probably there is something here connected to his visit to the isle of Faces (i think Jojen has green dreams because of how his father was affected, changed even, by the time he spent there).

Howland does not have green dreams, that much is said explicitly. But Jojen does, and it would be pretty strange if Jojen's green dreams weren't the reason Jojen and Meera went in Howand's stead.

There is not a lot of mystery really about HR. Crannogmen don't leave their swamps much and are generally treated poorly by othe folk when they do. He was a rarity in his youth, now he's an older man, with youths of his own, leader of his people. Why would he come out?

I don't intend to over-egg the supernatural here but there is something about the Reeds and about Howland himself. The line about him praying to the gods the night before the joust can mean everything or nothing: it's either a well placed red herring or a big hint (this guy has just spent time with people who - if they have weirwood groves and greenseers on the isle of Faces - become or are the old gods he is praying to and have powers over every beast that ran or swam or flew) that he is going to get a helping hand the next day. Too directly interventionist for you for the way GRRM's magic / religious system works? Shadow babies are pretty directly interventionist too.

Yes, way too interventionist. The old gods are not R'hlorr. They do subtle things like the direwolf puppies IMO.

Even Rh'lor has nothing to do with the shadowbabies IMO. Mel is an Asshai Shadowinder, not just a priestess. The shadowbabies, despite what she says about shadow not existing without light, don't seem Rh'lorr-ish at all, but do fit exactly her Asshai Shadowbinding background.

Its pretty simple. He says outright he doesn't have the skills and they are't those of his people. He turns down the opportunity to joust. Then he goes and prays and what do you know, the gods send someone hidden who does have the skills, or at least enough of them so that subtle help will do.

Insta-skillz-from-da-gods is just embarrassingly bad writing. This is GRRMs magnus opus, his great work. No way anything and pathetic as that is going to be in this series.

[the trees have eyes]

Obviously, even if it is really a House Stark story its also at least partly a House Reed story. Its coming from the Reeds, and the POV character is a crannogman. Thats so fricken obvious it goes without saying.

---

> It's so fricken obivous that the Reeds are telling a story where the main character is a Reed it shouldn't need saying

---

The reason it is clearly also a significantly House Stark story, is there is no reason for the Reeds to expect Bran to know a purely House Reed story, yet Jojen is certain Bran must know this one already. Sure, there's Starks in it, and Ned might have told something similar to his kids, but but Jojen is really certain Bran ought to know this one. Therefore its clearly supposed to be of some significance to house Stark, and the only real way it can be significant to House Stark is that the KotLT is a Stark. Nothing else is enough for Jojen to be so certain that he keeps checking, like he doesn't believe Bran telling him he'd never heard it before.

---

> Oh, i don't know about that. The tourney at Harrnehal was a gathering of the nobles from all over the realm which doesn't happen all the time you know. And the Crown Prince crowned a Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty. How often exactly do you think that happens? Every year?

---

Howland does not have green dreams, that much is said explicitly. But Jojen does, and it would be pretty strange if Jojen's green dreams weren't the reason Jojen and Meera went in Howand's stead.

---

> They are the reason (the plot device) to get Jojen to WF, i agree. But it is a big deal for a vassal not to present his oath of fealty directly himself. What is their to stop HR coming with his children in tow and having them stay as guests? Why doesn't he come?

---

There is not a lot of mystery really about HR. Crannogmen don't leave their swamps much and are generally treated poorly by othe folk when they do. He was a rarity in his youth, now he's an older man, with youths of his own, leader of his people. Why would he come out?

---

>I see. So he went to the Isle of Faces and stayed with the green men for a year and you think there is no mystery around him? Right.

In fact you think he doesn't come to WF to present his personal oath of fealty because he is lazy? Or because he doesn't consider it important enough that he is the only lord who doesn't come and sends a proxy? Ok.

---

Yes, way too interventionist. The old gods are not R'hlorr. They do subtle things like the direwolf puppies IMO.

---

> The Hammer of the Waters sounds pretty interventionist to me.

The spells around Storm's End that prevent Mel from passing the walls, or the spells that helped raise The Wall and prevent Coldhands passing through the Black Gate seem more than subtle manipulations.

Besides, they only really need to calm one horse for HR and unsettle his opponents at the key moment by, oh i don't know, something directly interventionist and subtle like warging to achieve this.

---

Even Rh'lor has nothing to do with the shadowbabies IMO. Mel is an Asshai Shadowinder, not just a priestess. The shadowbabies, despite what she says about shadow not existing without light, don't seem Rh'lorr-ish at all, but do fit exactly her Asshai Shadowbinding background.

Its pretty simple. He says outright he doesn't have the skills and they are't those of his people. He turns down the opportunity to joust. Then he goes and prays and what do you know, the gods send someone hidden who does have the skills, or at least enough of them so that subtle help will do.

---

>Wait, so you do think they directly intervene?

But you know that by praying he is kneeling down in front of a Heart Tree and talking to greenseers and skinchangers who can hear him and who do have the potential to help him, if their reach is great enough. Right?

---

Insta-skillz-from-da-gods is just embarrassingly bad writing. This is GRRMs magnus opus, his great work. No way anything and pathetic as that is going to be in this series.

---

There are no childish insta-skillz but there are ways they could help. What is so fricken hard to grasp about that? Pathetic? Tosh.

[corbon]

Oh, i don't know about that. The tourney at Harrnehal was a gathering of the nobles from all over the realm which doesn't happen all the time you know. And the Crown Prince crowned a Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty. How often exactly do you think that happens? Every year?

Thats not in the story though - thats quite explicitly another story.

If it was Stark story "about the tourney", then it would have Brandon riding in the tourney (he lost to Rhaegar), Lyanna being crowned etc.

Its not. Its explicitly a story about "a knight" and specifically a story about the KotLT.

Please stick to the story we have, not the one you want it to be..

They are the reason (the plot device) to get Jojen to WF, i agree. But it is a big deal for a vassal not to present his oath of fealty directly himself. What is their to stop HR coming with his children in tow and having them stay as guests? Why doesn't he come?

Its not a big deal. No one made a big deal out of it. It would be a big deal if no one came (except they are cranogmen and have no military force, nor are expected to, so its not a big deal), but HRs representive did come.

I see. So he went to the Isle of Faces and stayed with the green men for a year and you think there is no mystery around him? Right.

In fact you think he doesn't come to WF to present his personal oath of fealty because he is lazy? Or because he doesn't consider it important enough that he is the only lord who doesn't come and sends a proxy? Ok.

No, there's no big mystery. He's a crannogman. They are different. Different physically, different racially, different culturally. There are suggestions they may have some ties or even blood of the CotF. So what's mysterious about him going to the green men? Its his religion and culture already. People must, or the green men would have died out by now.

And again, he doesn't come to a call to arms because he's a crannogman, and they don't have an army, and aren't expected to have one. Their job is to prevent enemies marching up and down the neck.

Its not laziness, and he's not the only lord that sends representative. Lord Manderly sent his sons, just like HR.

> The Hammer of the Waters sounds pretty interventionist to me.

The spells around Storm's End that prevent Mel from passing the walls, or the spells that helped raise The Wall and prevent Coldhands passing through the Black Gate seem more than subtle manipulations.

Besides, they only really need to calm one horse for HR and unsettle his opponents at the key moment by, oh i don't know, something directly interventionist and subtle like warging to achieve this.

Magic and the gods seem to be two very different things. And warging seems to be restricted to the blood of the First Men, which does not include crannogmen.

HR doesn't have the skills to ride a horse or sit a lance. He outright says so. And turns down the opportunity to join the joust.

Wait, so you do think they directly intervene?

But you know that by praying he is kneeling down in front of a Heart Tree and talking to greenseers and skinchangers who can hear him and who do have the potential to help him, if their reach is great enough. Right?

Well, if you insist they intervene, theres a perfectly mundane intervention, very much their subtle style. In Lyanna.

Wrong. I know he is not kneeling in front of a heart tree, but at the water's edge looking out over the lake.

There are no childish insta-skillz but there are ways they could help. What is so fricken hard to grasp about that? Pathetic? Tosh.

Ways they could help that include someone with no horse skills and unable to use a lance winning three jousts is childish insta-skillz one way or another.

Ways they could help that include motivating the heart of a certain wilful and impetuous young lady, that fits the style of this series all the way.

[Sword of the Long Night]

So. I have been thinking about it over and over again. And I think it is Ned!

Evidence: i think ned is young here. i don't think Robert would be be the storm lord here or Ned The Lord of winterfell. but rather his father, Stafford is the stormlord and Rickard is The Lord or winterfell. I think this because why wouldn't the Storm Lord (Robert) and Lord Stark (Ned) be together? We dont lnow if the two houses r close. Maybe there is a reason robert/ned are fostered together as young boys. Maybe theres a reason Robert and Lyanna were to be married. Some rift between these two great houses? maybe we will find out more.

Getting back. Robert and Nedq were best of friends from the time they met. And I think that this event happened before they were wards at the Aery under Lord Jon Aryn. Otherwise, wouldn't they be at each others sides? They were as close as brothers. Surely they would be together.

Movin on. If my theory is right about neds age...Then wouldn't this put Ned Stark at somewhat of a young age. More specifically, the age where NORMAL sized armor would be loose. I think this is very possible. We know the Crannog Men pledge their fealty to the Starks. But why would Howland and Ned be such close friends? I believe he wore the armour. Howland was told by the Green Men to meet someone (I think Ned). Does anyone else share the same beliefs with me? I'm curious because I think Ned standing up for Howland made Howland so loyal to Ned!!! And that the green men knew the Starks held the power of the old gods. That's why they sent Howland to Harrenhal. To make sure the power of the old gods came together and overthrew the targs (new gods yada yada). Rambled a little bit but I have so many ideas. I think Ned/the Starks have some things that are gonna be revealed. Can't wait!

[Dragonfish]

Evidence: i think ned is young here. i don't think Robert would be be the storm lord here or Ned The Lord of winterfell. but rather his father, Stafford is the stormlord and Rickard is The Lord or winterfell.

No, Steffon (not Stafford) died when Robert was young, before Rhaegar ever got married. Robert is definitely the Storm Lord mentioned here.

Ned certainly isn't Lord Stark in the story, but then again no Lord Stark is mentioned as being at the tourney. Instead, we have the wild wolf (Brandon), the wolf maid (Lyanna), the quiet wolf (Ned), and the wolf pup (Benjen). Ned is about eighteen at the tourney, which is too old for him to be the short-of-stature KotLT.

[Dr. Pepper]

So. I have been thinking about it over and over again. And I think it is Ned!

Evidence: i think ned is young here. i don't think Robert would be be the storm lord here or Ned The Lord of winterfell. but rather his father, Stafford is the stormlord and Rickard is The Lord or winterfell. I think this because why wouldn't the Storm Lord (Robert) and Lord Stark (Ned) be together? We dont lnow if the two houses r close. Maybe there is a reason robert/ned are fostered together as young boys. Maybe theres a reason Robert and Lyanna were to be married. Some rift between these two great houses? maybe we will find out more.

Steffon Baratheon was already dead. He died before Rhaegar married Elia. So Robert was the Lord of Storm's End. Ned and Robert were both fostered at the Vale.

There are a lot of nitpicks to make with your "theory" but it all falls apart from the above.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

And warging seems to be restricted to the blood of the First Men, which does not include crannogmen.

The Crannogmen are First Men descendants. They were around while the First Men were warring with the COTF, and were said to 'grow close' to the children around the time that the hammer of the waters was dropped on the Neck.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

I don't think Howland Reed sending his kids in his stead would be taken as a slight all, considering he is fighting a guerilla war at the time against the Iron Men and yes the Iron at this point have begun reeveing the coast. That is like saying its a slight for Robb not to be there himself. If anything, sending his heir's would be a great sign of loyalty. Obviously the Lord himself going is preferred, the heirs would be the next best thing. Sending some peasant would be an insult. Anyway in the text it is specifically mentioned that Howland Reed is a great friend of Ned's, he saved his life, and that Ned had great trust in the Crannogman. Bran and Robb clearly know this so why argue it?

Plus we know why Jojen and Meera were sent, because of his green dream.

[Le Cygne]

If it was a pure Reed story, Jojen and Meera wouldn't expect Bran to know. Only if it is a Stark story does their disbelief of Bran not knowing the story make sense.

“And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”

“She was,” said Meera, “but that’s a sadder story.”

“Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?” asked Jojen. “Your lord father never told it to you?”

There's also the way this is written. The proximity to the Lyanna reference. And Jojen immediately asks, are you sure you haven't heard this?

The implication is pretty direct that they both are talking about Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

[corbon]

The Crannogmen are First Men descendants. They were around while the First Men were warring with the COTF, and were said to 'grow close' to the children around the time that the hammer of the waters was dropped on the Neck.

That doesn't make them First Men though. Indeed, it points to them being different even then.

The First Men say they were the first humans in Westeros, but that doesn't make it accurate even if it is not 'false'. Just that there was not another major human culture for them to conquer.

[Diehard_TH]

* The KotLT is not Howland, this is clearly intimated by the fact Jojen & Meera are surprised that Bran hasn't heard the story; however, this does not mean the KotLT is Lyanna, just that Jojen & Meera think that it was, which would imply that Howland thinks it was Lyanna too.

Jojen asks Bran twice if he is sure that he hasn't heard the story; he is confused, maybe because he is now wondering whether if the Reeds' assumption that the KotLT was Lyanna is incorrect and that the KotLT was something else

* About the stature of the KotLT: these quotes perhaps suggest that it wasn't Lyanna.

"Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two." So, Lyanna is taller than Benjen or at least was when Bran sees this.

"'No one knew,' said Meera, 'but the mystery knight was short of stature,"

* When I first read the passage I got the impression it was some supernatural entity sent by the CotF or Old Gods; mainly due to this: "the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm" i felt it sounded 'artificial' in some way, magically amplified if you will.

Especially as Howland "knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be and said a prayer to the old gods"; also, the KotLT's sigil is a wierwood.

We only ever see the KoltT encased in ill-fitting mis-matched armour (so not Benjen's armour then) and with a helm. Could it be some sort of 'golem' and there is in fact empty space behind the helm?

* The coincidence that those three squires' lords got through to face the KotLT could also be due to 'divine intervention'; as Meera says "As it happened the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight..." taking 'As it happened' to mean 'In a strange way'.

So to summarise:

• The KotLT is not Howland
  
• The Reeds think/assume the KotLT was Lyanna
  
• There are odd incidences that could be divine intervention of some kind
  
• The KotLT could either be a 'golem' or Lyanna (or someone else but unlikely) with a possible 'divine enhancement'
  

[corbon]

* About the stature of the KotLT: these quotes perhaps suggest that it wasn't Lyanna.

"Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two." So, Lyanna is taller than Benjen or at least was when Bran sees this.

"'No one knew,' said Meera, 'but the mystery knight was short of stature,"

The older and taller of two children will still be short of stature when measured against grown men. Lyanna is 14 at this time.

These quotes do not in the slightest argue against Lyanna. 'Short of stature' argues for her.

* When I first read the passage I got the impression it was some supernatural entity sent by the CotF or Old Gods; mainly due to this: "the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm" i felt it sounded 'artificial' in some way, magically amplified if you will.

A booming voice is the natural result of speaking in a closed helm while trying to be loud and not sound like a girl.

Just because you feel it sounds artificial is not any sort of evidence either way.

Especially as Howland "knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be and said a prayer to the old gods"; also, the KotLT's sigil is a wierwood.

The old gods acting through mundane agency (Lyanna) is much more fitting to the tone of the series and quality of the writing, IMO, than an un-clued and unexplained emergence of some mechanical or magical construct.

What is the objection to it being Lyanna? She's been set up as a brilliant rider, we are told jousting is all about horsemanship, she's the most involved Stark at every part of this story, its fits her known charcater and cryptic comments Ned makes, and it fits perfectly with the metastory and her being awarded the Crown of Love and Beauty and later eloping with Rhaegar.

[Diehard_TH]

The older and taller of two children will still be short of stature when measured against grown men. Lyanna is 14 at this time.

These quotes do not in the slightest argue against Lyanna. 'Short of stature' argues for her.

How old is Lyanna when Bran see's her through the weirwood? As she is mentioned as being taller than Benjen thus she MAY not have been 'short of stature' at age 14. My point was there is ambiguity in how tall she was.

A booming voice is the natural result of speaking in a closed helm while trying to be loud and not sound like a girl.

Just because you feel it sounds artificial is not any sort of evidence either way.

I'm not offering it as evidence, i just mentioned how i pictured it when i read it - is this some sort of law court or something? I'm trying to have a discussion over possible interpretations of the text, jeez.

The old gods acting through mundane agency (Lyanna) is much more fitting to the tone of the series and quality of the writing, IMO, than an un-clued and unexplained emergence of some mechanical or magical construct.

Just because you feel it is much more fitting is not any sort of evidence either way. Why is it un-clued? I've given some hints as to why it MAY be a 'golem'.

What is the objection to it being Lyanna? She's been set up as a brilliant rider, we are told jousting is all about horsemanship, she's the most involved Stark at every part of this story, its fits her known charcater and cryptic comments Ned makes, and it fits perfectly with the metastory and her being awarded the Crown of Love and Beauty and later eloping with Rhaegar.

I do not have objections to it being Lyanna, in fact I specifically say that she is one of two possibilites; the golem being the other. I agree it fits in with the whole Rhaegar angle better if it is in fact Lyanna but my points were to show that a 'golem' is also possiblity.

I just thought i'd highlight the little hints I think COULD point to some sort of 'divine intervention'. Did you even read my summary?