Knight of the Laughing Tree

[The guy from the Vale]

If there was some kind of golem, shouldn't there be some evidence that can only be interpreted as a golem instead of a teenage girl? The booming voice in particular is something we see in one other scene: When Brienne wins the melee against Loras. Booming voices from inside helmets have indicated woman warriors before in the series, so why should it be a sign for anything else now? Granted, if Ser Robert Strong started talking in a booming voice, I would agree... but he's not talking at all so far.

[Diehard_TH]

If there was some kind of golem, shouldn't there be some evidence that can only be interpreted as a golem instead of a teenage girl? The booming voice in particular is something we see in one other scene....

Ok, just for the record if I had to place a bet my money is on the KotLT being Lyanna. That said the possibility of a golem intrigues me. As for evidence that only supports a golem, there's probably none as more people might have mentioned it! However, i'll summarise some points, that could fit a golem.

* Jojen being really confused that Bran hadn't heard the story makes me think that Jojen thought it was Lyanna and is now not so sure.

* "...a mystery knight appeared in the lists." - the words here are 'appeared in' not 'arrived at'

* "...ill fitting armour made up of bits and pieces" - could sound like some sort of construct, the bits and pieces phrase is odd, if it was Lyanna she'd probably have got a single set of armour albeit still ill fitting.

* Where did the KotLT's shield come from? - odd that it depicts a wierwood, why would Lyanna use that?

* "...in a booming voice through his helm" - iirc Brienne's voice was decribed as muffled, this implies amplification of somekind.

* "The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished." Apart from said shield, no trace was ever found - although this could well be a point against a golem as i'd maybe expect to find bits of the armour somewhere. However, why is the shield the only bit found, highlights the wierwoods again.

* Bran says "I bet the old gods sent him"

All in all, not much and nothing that really can't be explained by it being Lyanna. It being a golem is pretty crackpot but there does seem to be hints of something more to this.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I think another clue is how Arya doesn't want to do needlework and Ned encourages it, either knowing that she's not going to give up or figuring maybe her song will be better than her aunts.

Ned could be another candidate since he's not tall as his brother Brandon and younger.

Howland Reed doesn't seem like a likely candidate. Meera and Joojen seem to think that Bran should know who the knight was, or at least heard this story a hundred times. Meaning it's a wolf tale and they don't think it's their place to tell him what happened if he doesn't know.

[Dragonfish]

Ned could be another candidate since he's not tall as his brother Brandon and younger.

Do you have a reference for Ned being shorter than Brandon? Keep in mind that he was 18, so he would have reached his natural height at that point.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

Do you have a reference for Ned being shorter than Brandon? Keep in mind that he was 18, so he would have reached his natural height at that point.

"She (Catelyn) remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber." (ASOS, 624)

[Dragonfish]

"She (Catelyn) remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber." (ASOS, 624)

Thanks. I don't think this means Ned was short of stature in general, though. Brandon may simply have been tall.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

Thanks. I don't think this means Ned was short of stature in general, though. Brandon may simply have been tall.

By no means do I think it was Ned - I'm firmly of the opinion it was Lyanna and it's close to irrefutable for me.

I'm pretty sure though most sources have Ned as of average height, maybe somewhere between 5'10" and 6'1".

[The evil little grumkin]

I'm rather certain, it was Lyanna, too, perhaps magically enforced by Lord Bryndon, in case she had troubles with the weight of the armour.

But when haven't we been wrong about assuming anything about the characters? We were often led in circles and fooled, and assumed things that weren't true.

after all I know it could be some quite queer idea coming u: Tyrions-Children-greatgranddad from the island in the God's Eye, or Jaime refusing to obey the king and wanting to joust at least once...

Lyanna would make most sense. She's defending Howland, so he needn't ride himself, nor need Benjen or Ned, and I like the idea Rhaegar found out.

[MikeL]

Honestly when I first read it I was sure it was Eddard (as this would be the origin of the great friendship between them), but now I don't know :) Hopefully it will be resolved in TWOW - and we don't have to wait even longer to find out!

[Bran Swift]

Before taking a look at this thread I thought it was certainly Howland Reed that was TKOTLT. I thought Jojen's questions asking Bran if he had heard the tale before were just a reference to the fact that a lot of his family are characters in it (The Wolf Queen, The Wild Wolf, The Quiet Wolf, and the Pup).

However, I agree now that TKOTLT was probably Lyanna. I won't reiterate but there's some good evidence for it. If you think it was Lyanna, then Jojen's repeated questions to Bran seem to be more of a hint at the fact that the Wolf Queen (Lyanna) is more of a prominent character in the tale than one might think.

Considering Howland Reed is almost certainly the Crannogmen in the story, Jojen and Meera probably heard the tale with names included from him at some point. This gives further credit to the connotations of Jojen's questions.

[Whitering]

I always assumed it was Lyanna, and Rhaegar, super genius, figured it out, that's why he was so madly attracted to her. Here he had been married to this frail little wife, whom he no doubt loved, and along came this beautiful and ferociously wonderful northern lass. Well, it would be hard to pass up.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I found some more information that I hadn't seen before.

Jaime Lannister an accomplished jouster says

"Jousting was 3/4 horsemanship, he[Jaime] had always thought..."

Jojen in the story:

"Whoever it was the god's gave strength to his arm"

Lyanna didn't need strength in riding the horse, being a girl that Ned says Arya reminds him of, would probably mean she's not buff like Brienne of Tarth.

[The Dragon has three heads]

It's 90% Lyanna.

10% a buffed Howland Reed.

[Israel]

I think the clues point to Howland making sure his antogists won their tilts be warging horses and making sure they face TKOTLT. The idea is that he did what he could for her as she did and was doing for him. Its Howlands disappearance that points to him being involved.

- Craggonmen cant ride

-All parts of the story contribute to the story, The craggonman going to IoF isnt just to get him near Harrenhall, he learned stuff there that he will use later inn the story.

-The knights of the squires all winning and getting set up against TKOTLT is sooo fishy

-His disappearance points to him being involved so he was helping

-Lyanna took offense to the laughing and the weirwood points to a stark first , laughing points to her first, then any other northman / woman

-The moment all the smiles died

-My throw in : If you believed u must have onother baby then u meet this badass beatifull noble warrior chick..... its a wrap

[The guy from the Vale]

Howland can't warg though, Jojen tells us.

[corbon]

I think the clues point to Howland making sure his antogists won their tilts be warging horses and making sure they face TKOTLT. The idea is that he did what he could for her as she did and was doing for him. Its Howlands disappearance that points to him being involved.

- Craggonmen cant ride

-All parts of the story contribute to the story, The craggonman going to IoF isnt just to get him near Harrenhall, he learned stuff there that he will use later inn the story.

The reason for that part of the story is to establish why the little Crannogman is out of the swamps at all (it doesn't happen often), and around at Harrenhal. It does not require a second purpose to fit within the story.

-The knights of the squires all winning and getting set up against TKOTLT is sooo fishy

All being champion at once, yes, thats some dodgy story licence there. But they were not set up against the KotLT (s)he challenged them.

-His disappearance points to him being involved so he was helping

Howland never disappeared. Neither did the KotLT, (s)he simply didn't re-suit-up the next morning.

-The moment all the smiles died

Which is relevant how?

-My throw in : If you believed u must have onother baby then u meet this badass beatifull noble warrior chick..... its a wrap

Er, thats around nine months later. Its more like "remember that badass, honourable, beautiful chick" - who is Ice to match Fire.

[Mikkel]

All being champion at once, yes, thats some dodgy story licence there.

Not necessarily, the three knights had the skill at arms to become champions in the first place, and if they were friends or allies, they wouldn't challenge each other - which was why their squires hung out together, too - I think it's fairly common for squires to mimic their masters' friendships.

There's no direct evidence for or against it, but it makes sense. Of course, it may also be because it makes for a good story.

Incidentally, I want the Knight to be Howland, simply because the "fierce female disguises herself as a warrior and beats all the men" is such a tired cliché.

[corbon]

Not necessarily, the three knights had the skill at arms to become champions in the first place, and if they were friends or allies, they wouldn't challenge each other - which was why their squires hung out together, too - I think it's fairly common for squires to mimic their masters' friendships.

There's no direct evidence for or against it, but it makes sense. Of course, it may also be because it makes for a good story.

One of them was champion for a whole day (since the evening before) and the other two all afternoon. Sure, they may not challenge each other, but someone else must have during that time, and they aren't that good or Lyanna wouldn't have beaten them.

Unless of course she beat them partly because they were worn out from defeating other challengers... ...in which case its silly that they all lasted so long and all wore out at just the right time for her challenge.

Incidentally, I want the Knight to be Howland, simply because the "fierce female disguises herself as a warrior and beats all the men" is such a tired cliché.

She didn't beat them all, just three nobodies.

[vivatforx]

I am super new here. Forgive me if this has been said before in this thread.

I am totally convinced by this theory. When I read through the Harrenhal story the first time, I was so swept up in the craziness of ASOS that I did not think too deeply about the symbolism of the mystery night. By the way I think Martin counts on the reader being dizzy with emotion when he plants his clues, so some of us do not pick up on them. Anyhow, I just sorta thought this was the story that explained the connection between the Reeds and Starks.

However, Lyanna as TKotLT explains how Rhaegar, who we know is not a talented fighter, won the Harrenhall tourney. Rheagar goes out and unmasks the mystery knight, and discovers it's the super hot and awesome Lyanna Stark. Whatever happens between them is so inspiring that Rheagar, the singer, wins the biggest tourney of them all. This is why he crowns Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, because he knows she is the reason he won.

We also know Rhaegar was fixated on the PWWP prophecy, and the song of fire and ice bit for the third head of the dragon probably smacked him in the face. This might have also inspired him.

We don't know when or why Rheagar and Lyanna fell in love (I don't buy that he took her against her will at all) but this seems like a plausible explanation. Guess we'll wait and see.

[Dragonfish]

However, Lyanna as TKotLT explains how Rhaegar, who we know is not a talented fighter, won the Harrenhall tourney.

Huh? Rhaegar is frequently described as a talented fighter.