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Knight of the Laughing Tree


Anvik

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Because Ned remember this kind of things. Jaime might have forgotten them. Did Jaime had specific POVs on Harrenhal? He always has this "so what" attitude.

You people are barking at the wrong tree. It is obviously THE WALDER who is the KOTLT

Old Nan?

She is supposed to be a Frey but she sure knows a lot about the North. I wonder about her.

Jaime was unhappy about his missing hand and about Brienne kicking his ass.

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  • 1 month later...

Crannogman was Howland. He learned some trick that helped Ned defeat Arthur Dayne.

Possible, but not at all necessary. 'Tricks' are not required to save someone's life in a melee fight-to-the-death.

The story of the Isle of Faces is not Meera's to tell. It is Howland's and we will read it at some point. Ned might be involved.

No reason why Ned would be involved. I don't think they had met at all before Lyanna took HR back to the Stark's tents at Harrenhal.

Knight was Lyanna. Maybe. Rhaegar chased her and was smitten. However, the crannogman prayed before the tourney. Why?

Why not? He's a young man, lost and almost alone, in a miserable situation. He prays to his gods. All that shows is that he takes his religion seriously, his faith is real, not the sort of lip-service faith that a Robert Baratheon or a Tyrion Lannister might show.

The booming voice was from Howland and his skillz somehow. Benjen was very young at that time. Brandon was 19, Ned 17, Lyanna 15, Benjen younger than that. Maybe it was him.

There is no reason at all the booming voice can't be from the KotLT. Its a natural result from being inside a closed helm, especially if she is deliberately attempting to make her voice sound deeper and more manly. Witness Brienne being mistaken for a man when she spoke, until she lifted her helm.

Again, HR does not need to use preternatural skillz he learned at Isle of Faces.

In fact, the reference to the time he spent there learning skills could be as simple as merely explaining why he is in the area at the time of Harrenhal, not all about his super-duper special skillz.

Maybe the prayers gave the crannogman the knightly skills he lacked - helped with some sort of weirdness between him and Lyanna and the other Starks.

That simply isn't how the gods work in GRRMs writing though.

Face it, what is more likely - the Gods gave HR some insta-skills out of nowhere - the very skills he so pointedly lacked earlier the same evening when he turned down Benjen's offer, or the gods work in mysterious ways and Lyanna as KotLT is the indirect answer to his prayers?

The T o J was torn down with the help of Howland and his skills at making castles appear and disappear. He also uses this skill to hide Greywater watch and snare the unwary in the Neck.

Again, all unnecessary. ToJ may well have been a small ramshackle old tower - it was after all isolated in the marches. It could well have been easily pulled down by one man, some horses and some ropes.

Greywater Watch is on a floating island and has always been 'impossible to find' for outsiders, from well before HR acquired his 'skillz'.

The unwary are easily snared by purely natural flora and fauna in the neck. Its extremely easy for 'locals' to run effectively guerilla warfare. Look at Hereward the Wake operating from the fens, for example, and he probably wasn't even really a 'local'! Again, no special 'skillz' are needed here, other than mundane skills common among the Crannogmen.

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  • 1 month later...

I find it hard to beleive that a woman defeated three of the last five contenders. I mean they had to be really good to make it to the top five. Even if Lyanna was a good rider and had some sword training it's irreleventant to jousting. Also the booming voice.... it would be hilarious hearing her mimicing a man's voice.

The fact that a note is made that the night before the crannogman prayed to the gods is foreshadowing something of a miracle-like. I don't think though that it was Holand Reed, for that I take Johen's word. Meera says in the beginning that TNOTLT may be a crannogman but Johen says "or not" and I think his word weighs more.

My theory... due to body structure, booming voice, heart tree shield..... it was the wolf pup.... :cheers:

One last thing, note that Johen is clearly dubious about the fact that Bran hasn't heard the story before as if he expected to be frequently told..... why is that?

They werent 3 of the last 5 though they had only made it through the first day/round - the passage says

''Five days of jousting were planned," she said. "There was a great seven-sided melee as well, and archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, and tourney of singers..."

"Never mind about all that." Bran squirmed impatiently in his basket on Hodor's back. "Tell about the jousting."

"The daughter of the castle was queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists''

therefore out of 5 days these guys have simply become champions by the end of the first day/start of the 2nd by defeating one of the hosts sons or someone who defeated a son of the host who were named 'champions' simply because of who they were not how good they were - anyone could challenge them and im sure it says somewhere that the better knights dont bother entering until the 2nd or 3rd day anyway

and as several posters have already said Jaime and someone else make specific mention that horsemanship is a huge part of jousting, and if she trained at swords why not lance? And Benjen would be even smaller than lyanna at this point she was 14 how old was he a few years younger?

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(My first post!)

There seems to be a lot of back and forth on this topic, particularly between whether TKotLT is Reed, Benjen, or Lyanna. Personally, I think Lyanna makes the most sense. The way Meera told the story to Bran was as a fairy tale with two different main characters: the crannogman and his savior TKotLT. If it was the crannogman I think it would make more sense story wise to say that he prayed to the Isle of Faces and the gods answered that they would grant him strength for a limited period of time (a la Cinderella and her fairy god mother). He defeats the knights and reveals himself as the little crannogman no one took seriously. This is the kind of story Bran wants it to be so he keeps interjecting and trying to make it fit the crannogman, even going so far as to change the ending saying that the squires should have been the knights so the crannogman could have killed him. So I think that discredits HR as being TKotLT. Lyanna makes the most sense and I'll tell you why:

I think @the trees have eyes makes a solid point as to why Lyanna would "flee" and how Rhaegar could have found out it was Lyanna if she wasn't openly presenting herself as TKotLT and her purpose of avenging Howland Reed was over. So I offer this theory: who's to say Rhaegar only first noticed Lyanna when he was sent out by his father to find the mystery knight? Maybe he first noticed her when she attacked the squires (or at least heard about it because I'm sure she made a scene). When, the next day, some mystery knight shows up and challenges the 3 knights of the same squires that attacked the crannogman the day before I think Rhaegar could probably put 2 and 2 together, and, at least if he didn't suspect Lyanna herself, probably thought she might have a good idea who it was.

Lyanna, having heard the crannogman saying his prayer to the CotF would have felt sorry for him and entered as with a weirwood sigil as a message to the crannogman that the old gods had heard his prayers. Afterwards when the king demanded TKotLT be found and unmasked, it would be necessary for her to hide the shield. If it's found anywhere near her and her brothers' camp, they would be blamed because, like some posters on this thread it would be inconceivable to most, especially he knights that lost, that they were beaten by a 14-15 year old girl. If Rhaegar had suspected Lyanna might have known something, as evidenced from the scene she made with the tourney sword 2 days before, he could have followed her and found her hiding the shield.

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  • 3 months later...

Basically:

  • The Knight is short of stature, as a woman would appear when compared to men.
  • The Knight has an "illl-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces". If he were a regular knight, he'd have his own armor, while Lyanna would have to improvise her equipment.
  • The Knight "spoke with a booming voice through his helm", which might be the way how Lyanna hide her woman's voice.
  • The Knight's sigil is a weirwood tree, a sign of the Old Gods, thus limiting the suspects to people from the North.
  • In AGOT it is said that Lyanna was a great rider, and in ADWD we learn that she used to train fighting with her brothers.
  • Lyanna being TKOTLT justifies why Rhaegar (precisely the one who was entrusted by Aerys to discover the identity of the knight) eventually became infatuated with her.

oh e-nuff little knight is oblivesly Howland Reed , quiet wolf is ned , wild wolf = brandon and little wolf = benjen

it was the point of the story howland told it to his kids couse he was that knight ... :)

there is a reson howland won all 3 fights reson why he proved himself in the battle of trident (saving neds life) and there is a reson why only him and ned survived tower of joy

he was short but he kicked arse :)

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oh e-nuff little knight is oblivesly Howland Reed , quiet wolf is ned , wild wolf = brandon and little wolf = benjen

it was the point of the story howland told it to his kids couse he was that knight ... :)

No, it was Lyanna, and now in the Arianne I sample chapter, we have a Lady Lance to show us that women are able to win against knights.

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oh e-nuff little knight is oblivesly Howland Reed , quiet wolf is ned , wild wolf = brandon and little wolf = benjen

There is clear evidence it was not Howland Reed.

it was the point of the story howland told it to his kids couse he was that knight ... :)

Which is totally illogical, given that the Reed kids expected Bran to know the story and were astonished he did not. Its clearly a House Stark story, not a House Reed story.

there is a reson howland won all 3 fights reson why he proved himself in the battle of trident (saving neds life) and there is a reson why only him and ned survived tower of joy

he was short but he kicked arse :)

There is no evidence for your statement at all.

The story has the Llittle crannogmans offered arms and armour to rdeem his honour by competeing and he declines, because he's small, weak, just been beaten, and can barely ride let alone know how to use a lance.

But of course, all this has been pointed out many times before...

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And so what if Jon is Lyanna's son?

She wasn't married, and in the end he's still a bastard.....and his mother if willing is well, kinda a whore to be honest. :l

Basically everything is the same, lol.

It's all been argued before, Jon wouldn't be a bastard he'd be the legitimate King depending on Aegon. Lyanna isn't a whore I don't see how you've possibly decided that, nothing is the same. Visit one of the many R+L=J threads.

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And so what if Jon is Lyanna's son?

She wasn't married, and in the end he's still a bastard.....and his mother if willing is well, kinda a whore to be honest. :l

Basically everything is the same, lol.

They could have been married. Yes Rhaegar was married to Elia, but there have been other cases of Targaryen´s who practised poligamy.

Why would she have been are whore?

Nothings is the same R+L=J has the power to change the game completly, because Jon could be Rhaebar´s heir (depends on the question wether Aegon is fake or not) , he could inherit the Iron Throne, maybe he´s the Song of Ice and Fire, or the Prince who was promised or Azor Asshai.....

It's all been argued before, Jon wouldn't be a bastard he'd be the legitimate King depending on Aegon. Lyanna isn't a whore I don't see how you've possibly decided that, nothing is the same. Visit one of the many R+L=J threads.

:agree: and best read the Analysis of the Tower of the Hand or of the Citadel. You finde the links at the first page of the actual R+L thread.

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It's all been argued before, Jon wouldn't be a bastard he'd be the legitimate King depending on Aegon. Lyanna isn't a whore I don't see how you've possibly decided that, nothing is the same. Visit one of the many R+L=J threads.

Uh I have, I've read all the theories, comments, and so on.

And at the end of the day of course it is still a theory. LOL

But regardless, Lyanna wasn't married to anyone so if she gave birth to an OUT OF WEDLOCK child, then yes that child is infact a BASTARD. Just like all of the out of wedlock bastards born today, a bastard is a bastard is a bastard.

And nobody is a "true" heir. Westeros was taken by conquest and can be taken just the same by anyone with men willing to follow them. It's not as if the Targaryens woke up one day in Westeros and all of Westeros just decided to follow them.

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They could have been married. Yes Rhaegar was married to Elia, but there have been other cases of Targaryen´s who practised poligamy.

Why would she have been are whore?

Nothings is the same R+L=J has the power to change the game completly, because Jon could be Rhaebar´s heir (depends on the question wether Aegon is fake or not) , he could inherit the Iron Throne, maybe he´s the Song of Ice and Fire, or the Prince who was promised or Azor Asshai.....

If Rhaegar wanted a second wife then there would be no reason for such a shit storm as he could have just married her, Robert would have been pissed sure - and perhaps STILL would have rebelled but I generally think he'd get over it at some point because if Lyanna was willing and upfront about it, there would be reason for her idiot Brother to go making death threats to Rhaegar, and thus no killing of him and his father - which would mean no reason for the Starks to join in with anything Robert MAY or may not had planned for "revenge."

So unless both of them were completely stupid, or just wanted to cause drama - they weren't married, she was either a whore who ran off with a married man willingly, or an innocent woman kidnapped and raped.

Jon isn't going to inherit anything without someone with a bigger army fighting it. The iron throne is anyone's grab at this point. Why shouldn't it be? The Targaryen's weren't born kings over Westeros, they took it and someone will take it again.

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As some people tried to point out before me, it's not a given that Lyanna wasn't married to Rhaegar. Circumstantial evidence (the Targaryen history of polygamy, the KG at the ToJ) point to Jon being legitimate.

ETA on your last point: Who's to say that wasn't precisely Rhaegar's plan, but Brandon's rashness threw a spanner in the works?

Also, he couldn't do so officially without the consent of Rickard Stark. So I guess he wanted to create facts on the ground that would force a compromise.

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As some people tried to point out before me, it's not a given that Lyanna wasn't married to Rhaegar. Circumstantial evidence (the Targaryen history of polygamy, the KG at the ToJ) point to Jon being legitimate.

ETA on your last point: Who's to say that wasn't precisely Rhaegar's plan, but Brandon's rashness threw a spanner in the works?

Also, he couldn't do so officially without the consent of Rickard Stark. So I guess he wanted to create facts on the ground that would force a compromise.

If they were married why all the drama?

Rhaegar was a prince, and honestly could do as pleased. Unless he FORCED her to marry him, then why the anger from the Starks?

Robert's anger is expected, but why hide a marriage as if you just ran of with a married man, or said man actually kidnapped you?

Rhaegar certainly doesn't seem all that intelligent at this point to me, but I can't imagine Lyanna was stupid enough to think hiding a marriage to the prince was a good idea. Maybe she thought it was funny though when her father in law cooked and strangled her family. :l Perhaps she had hopes that her new family would just slaughter her father and all of the Starks and they could live happily ever after, who knows.

edit/

And why wouldn't her father give consent? Why was she in such a rush to marry someone when she could be a normal person and just wait? lol His daughter would be queen one day, and if that's what she wanted he may have said yes.

Rhaegar doesn't seem to plan very well if he thinks faking a kidnapping is the way to get things done....but that's why he's dead.

And seeing as there is still no proof of a marriage, Jon is still a BASTARD.

And anyone that wins the iron throne by conquest is king.

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If Rhaegar wanted a second wife then there would be no reason for such a shit storm as he could have just married her, Robert would have been pissed sure - and perhaps STILL would have rebelled but I generally think he'd get over it at some point because if Lyanna was willing and upfront about it, there would be reason for her idiot Brother to go making death threats to Rhaegar, and thus no killing of him and his father - which would mean no reason for the Starks to join in with anything Robert MAY or may not had planned for "revenge."

So unless both of them were completely stupid, or just wanted to cause drama - they weren't married, she was either a whore who ran off with a married man willingly, or an innocent woman kidnapped and raped.

Jon isn't going to inherit anything without someone with a bigger army fighting it. The iron throne is anyone's grab at this point. Why shouldn't it be? The Targaryen's weren't born kings over Westeros, they took it and someone will take it again.

Why was the KG at the TOJ?

If they weren´t married why was the KG at the TOJ?

But regardless, Lyanna wasn't married to anyone so if she gave birth to an OUT OF WEDLOCK child, then yes that child is infact a BASTARD. Just like all of the out of wedlock bastards born today, a bastard is a bastard is a bastard.

In many countries children who were born out of wedlock have the same rights like children of a married couple and it doesn´t matter if there paren´s were married or not.

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Because it's Rickard's decision whom to marry Lyanna to, and Aerys' decision who Rhaegar should marry. These two could ask the Faith to invalidate the marriage. So they had to first create facts on the ground (a baby) before coming out together.

Also, we don't know exactly what info Brandon got that made him ride into KL. There's quite some speculation that Rickard was actually ok with it, or at least not extremely upset, but apparently Brandon didn't get the memo (or got the wrong memo).

As for Aerys killing Rickard and Lyanna: They weren't in KL at that point. They didn't hear about that until later - perhaps much later, when the rebellion had already gone on for at least a few months. Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't know what exactly would happen. You're judging them from hindsight, but neither of the two was known to be prophetically gifted.

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