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Why is Alysane Mormont with Stannis?


Elaena Targaryen

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But if the Northern Houses ever found out that Ned actually knew that Stannis was the rightful heir, then they would support him.

I do not believe the notion of the rightfull heir to the Iron Throne matters to North anymore - they declared independence and when that happens to a nation the idea will not just dissapear even though RW happened (we know that from real life also). And, I still stand by my statement that North will not bow to a guy who

is burning people and Wierwood tries, rigthfull heir or not......

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The idea that the loose collection of feudal states that is Westeros and, further, its constituent parts and fiefdoms could ever be looked at in light of late Victorian-era nationalism, B'tash, is absolutely insane.

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The idea that the loose collection of feudal states that is Westeros and, further, its constituent parts and fiefdoms could ever be looked at in light of late Victorian-era nationalism, B'tash, is absolutely insane.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough (or preceise enough) in my statement - I was talking about nobles, not common folks - I believe that, once the idea of independence entered the minds of Northern houses it will not leave easily, specialy having in mind the fact that the alternative to the independence of North is to bow to Stannis who is a Baratheon and, for all intences and purposes, a Baratheon is the one who get Ned Stark killed. Not to mention the little fact of burning people and Wierwood tries :drunk:

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I think the North will side with Stannis because of the chaos of House Stark. Stannis will die fighting the Others and that will let the North have a King again.

I believe that, if there is to be another King in the North, it will be Brandon Stark. The house was founded by Bran the Builder, who constructed Winterfell and the Wall. He was also the first King in the North. GRRM likes to do things in cycles; Winterfell needs to be reconstructed, House Stark lies in ruins (and could probably stand some refounding) and Bran is Robb's true heir -- unless Jeyne Westerling was pregnant, which we know she wasn't.

The Northmen join with Stannis not out of any particular love for him, but because they know he's a man of his word. Uncompromisingly so. If he promises the Stark bannermen blood and justice for Eddard Stark and the Young Wolf, they have every reason to believe he will follow through.

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I believe that, if there is to be another King in the North, it will be Brandon Stark. The house was founded by Bran the Builder, who constructed Winterfell and the Wall. He was also the first King in the North. GRRM likes to do things in cycles; Winterfell needs to be reconstructed, House Stark lies in ruins (and could probably stand some refounding) and Bran is Robb's true heir -- unless Jeyne Westerling was pregnant, which we know she wasn't.

The Northmen join with Stannis not out of any particular love for him, but because they know he's a man of his word. Uncompromisingly so. If he promises the Stark bannermen blood and justice for Eddard Stark and the Young Wolf, they have every reason to believe he will follow through.

That's a great point about the character of Stannis. He is a man of his word and the Stark bannerman can relate to that characteristic. Their alliance will probably only last until Starks are back at Winterfell.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just want to comment on the Northern Families' collective "loyalty" to Stannis.

In my mind the North, when ADwD began, had no intention of being loyal to Stannis or in assisting Stannis in any way. Stannis was on Dragonstone as far as they were concerned and they were completely screwed with the Red Wedding to the South and Ironmen infiltrating from the West. Oh, and Winder is coming. Then, inexorably, they learn that Stannis Baratheon outflanked Mance Ryder at the Wall and routed his huge army. Hmmm... well... then Stannis appears in the Northern hill familes and basically tells them that he can help them take back Deepwood Motte and dislodge and defeat the Boltons who betrayed Robb.

And then Stannis starts being Stannis- he runs a tight ship and the Northern men are used to that having served under Ned and Robb for so long; he listens to their consel (this is a very Stannis trait: he has done it with Davos and Jon Snow). And he is performing an action that is beneficial to them. Yes its beneficial to Stannis as well- it gets him a base of operations and gets him nearer and nearer to King's Landing. ITs a symbiotic relationship. Both get a little but neither at the cost of the other.

We then turn to why they may actually like serving under Stannis. For one (and do not underestimate this) Stannis is stable. The North has been through three Wars (v. Aerys, v. Balon, and now the War of the Five Kings) and they have been battered and bloodied in each even with winning 2 of those. Winterfell is in ashes, Bolton is claiming to be Wrden of the North and they are currently under the boot of a thrull of the Lannisters. Ned, Robb, Brandon and Rickard Stark all were slain in a very brief period of time. Cat is dead, the relationship with the Eerie and the Rioverlands are gone and almost every single house has lost many men between battles and the Red Wedding. That is a tumulteous 15 years right there. With Stannis, the North finds balanced and direction; Stannis takes disparate parts and gets them saling in the same direction.

Next, Stannis is supremely confident. THere is no doubt or dithering in Stannis and the North respects that a great deal. They like leaders who know where they are and where they are going. Stannis has that in spades. However, Stannis does not have Hubris - he does not believe himself infalible (the Blackwater will do that to a man). He listens to counsel and he heeds smart advice.

Stannis is also tough; the North respects tough. Stannis is serious; the North does not put much stock in good humor or graciousness or diplomacy. Stannis' grimness and determination would be welcomed in the North.

Stannis reached out to the North; that will engender mutual consideration and understanding; Stannis is freeing the North; that will engender trust.

And Stannis has chops. He's competent, he understands battle; he does not demand his men march themselves to death (a la Tywin after deception at the Green Fork); he does not waste them needlessly (a la Edmure against the Mountain); he does not lead them to disaster (a La Robb at the Red Wedding).

Now, put this all together. It STILL may not be enough. But now put yourself back into a Northerner's skin. You have been smashed after the Red Wedding and are reduced to licking your wounds in the North; you are impotent to deliver your own bretheren in the Soth were slaughtered. Now, here comes Stannis. And then Stannis... wins. He leads your men almost as good as you do and he's not from around here. He listens to you, he does the grunt work. And he wins. He puts Roose Bolton in his crosshairs and for the first time in a year yoyu think somebody may actually save the North. And he wins. You look to see that here is this Southron lord who does not fear the cold; does not fear the wilderness and FUCK YOU he does not fear Roose Bolton (and you sure as hell do!). And he wins. And he's driving all of you through the start of Winetr and he acts like its nothing. He keeps the men in line and by gods, the men are acting like an army again and you can see that there is life to this guy. Yeah, you don't love him, you loved Robb and Ned...

... buit where did that really get you, after all.

And he wins.

And he wins.

And he wins.

The Mormonts have declared that there is only one King in the North and he is a Stark.

That was then and this is now. Again in the beginning that counted for something. But once they turn to Stannis- a man of his word -the Mormont's are going to be stuck with him. Sure, they could pull the whole, "Ayre- I never swore no oath to no Baratheon!" But that seems hollow when you have been fighting along side him and watching his men die for the North. Who was the last Non-NOrtherner who did that?

I fail to see why they would be willing to swear to Stannis. I think they want to USE Stannis to get rid of the Boltons, and then when they have Winterfell back, to declare Robb's will and put Jon on the throne as King in the North.

Again, its not "using" Stannis; its a symbiotic relationshop and there is mutual advantage to the relationship, one the North needs as much as Stannis. They are not going to toss that aside. If they do they will; be spitting in the face of a man who has only helped them. I think the ways things sit, the North is going to want to live with Stannis.

They have no desire to swear to Stannis whatsoever. This is a fantasy dreamed up by Stannis supporters.

Ask me again after the Battle with Bolton. Then again you may not need to because you may very well see a sea of Northernment screaming Stannis' name. Again.

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Great post Rockroi, an excellent analysis of Stannis as a character and why the north needs him! I especially like his steadiness and determination, both of which the are needed. Also such an experienced leader is used to dealing with troublesome bannermen and lords, while he wont be loved he will be respected which might be even better in this case.

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I really don’t get why Alysane Mormont, the heir of Bear Island, is with King Stannis. Does anyone have theories? In the chapter “The King’s Prize” Asha heard the wolves (north men including Aly) insist; “Roose Bolton could not be suffered to hold Winterfell, and the Ned’s girl must be rescued from the clutches of his bastard.” So is that it? Does Aly really need to be with Stannis to do that? Does Bear Island have close relations with the mountain clans?

We already know how they feel from the letter Lyanna Mormont sent to Stannis or is the young girl being loyal like Wylla Manderly? If it’s like Wylla can Aly be part of a northern conspiracy? What would her role with Stannis entail? We suspect Aly’s mother, Maege Mormont, is at Greywater Watch with Howland Reed, Galbart Glover, and Jason Mallister. Aly claims her sisters, Lyra and Jorella, are with their mother Maege. So should we now suspect movement from this area? Does anyone have theories?

For one we know Jason's not there he's rotting in his own dungeon. It's hard to say what communication has gone on between the Mormonts women, Lyanna is a child and may have been acting on her own as such in her letter it certainly reads 'childish'. Aly could easily have not been to Mormont Keep in months if she's been with her fighting force patrolling the coast or scouting the ships at Sea Dragon's Point, where she hears of King Stannis' movements and joins the team. Maege could have sent a letter from Seaguard before sailing up the neck about her & her daughters however this would be before the RW I can't see alot of communication to/from Greywater Watch since it doesn't have a rookery IRRC.

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Me too! Remember Tormunds story to Jon about when he had the hots for a woman who turned out to be a bear? :D

Hahaha that's funny! I wonder if Tormund is Alysane's babydaddy? That also brings up an interesting question... How could she possibly be impregnated when she wargs a bear? (jk)

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I agree with pretty much everything -- but i still think that in Stannis will somehow meet his end in TWoW, and the Northerners, yet again, will have to choose another leader. I also subscribe to the notion that Alysanne and the Mormonts -- maybe even the Northerners as a whole -- are plotting something to raise the Starks back in Winterfell, whether it be Jon, Rickon or Bran.

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I also subscribe to the notion that Alysanne and the Mormonts -- maybe even the Northerners as a whole -- are plotting something to raise the Starks back in Winterfell, whether it be Jon, Rickon or Bran.

Again, though, why plot? Stannis has already tried to lift Jon to Lord of WF; he does not believe either Rickon or Bran is alive (and neither do the others, as far as we know). The Northerners who DO know Rickon is alive (presumably Manderly) have actually already started the binding process with Stannis, or at least with his Hand, Davos. Why would the North start a plot when it appears that Stannis is good with a Stark in Winterfell? Why fight Stannis when Stannis is fighting for you?

And try to remember what a dire straight the North is in at the moment. IN Dance of Dragons, Theon (Reek) watches as Lord Bolton's hoast marches through Moat Calin. He says that the vast majority of Knights are Frey and that if Robb left the North with 20K men, maybe 2K remain ("two in ten" is how Theon describes it). And those men are loyal to Bolton. The North is utterly "decimated" (actually probably much worse) and they can't do much of anything. Their focus is on Bolton not on dismembering themselves into a feeble kingdom. Remember that ultimately Stannis is going to talk to the North about the Others and they will be more apt to believe him. At that point the North won't have the ability nor the will to stand for yet another war without somebody to lead them. That somebody could be Stannis.

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  • 1 month later...

Free Northmen in another thread (How many wildlings are left(WOW) - sorry don't know how to reference that properly) said there were about 6 million people in the north. They may not be as decimated as everyone (including me) first thought.

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The Northmen join with Stannis not out of any particular love for him, but because they know he's a man of his word. Uncompromisingly so. If he promises the Stark bannermen blood and justice for Eddard Stark and the Young Wolf, they have every reason to believe he will follow through.

Uh, what has Stannis done to earn such a reputation among the Northmen? He is in a bold rescue campaign, true, but the motivation is transparent ambition. If anything, the Northron people may have learned that he something of an oportunist. It doesn't help that he has (very publicy) manipulated and pressured the Night's Watch and engaged in both a backwards, repressive, pseudo-moralistic discourse and what amounts to a very liberal interpretation of marriage duties. And then there is the little matter of religious repression.

No, the North has neither love nor much of a reason to trust Stannis beyond their immediate obvious common cause (or, rather, more of a common enemy). Nor should we readers, really. Stannis is loved for what people want to see in him, not for what he has actually shown to be.

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But if the Northern Houses ever found out that Ned actually knew that Stannis was the rightful heir, then they would support him.

Would they, however? I very much doubt it.

For one thing, the Northron no longer see themselves as subjects of the Seven Kingdoms. Their current move against House Bolton is as much an act of independence from the Iron Throne (who pushed the supposed new Warden of the North down their throats) as anything else.

For another, Stannis' claim is doubtful. Even its legitimacy is ultimately glorified gossip.

Then there is Stannis's actual behavior - hardly the sort that inspires confidence, particularly among foreigners that know that he only after a crown.

Unless Stannis gets a olympic-level face turn Real Soon Now, he is neither deserving nor likely to receive much of actual acceptance in the North. They will thank him deeply for his help against the Boltons, wish him good luck in his campaign towards King's Landing, and go back to their business.

Really, they have no reason to do anything else. Stannis doesn't much care about the North - he can hardly name a handful of Houses, even - and it shows. The North isn't composed of blind followers of anyone who calls himself King, and it is all the better for that.

Come to think of it, Stannis just might have a shot at deserved acceptance if he put his mind to it. But it would basically mean giving up on the Iron Throne. He would need to actually stay on the North and settle for a while, earn their trust (which I straight out doubt him capable or deserving of, but who knows what might happen in the future) and become a Northron himself.

Trouble is, it would cost him more time than he is probably going to live still and the support of most of his greedy Southron Lords and Knights. He knows that well; he said Jon as much early in ADWD. His goals have little to do with the North, much less with Justice, and are only the springboard that he found to launch himself as a succesful, daring military leader that ought to be recognized as King.

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You go out of your way to present this really weird alternate reading of Stannis that almost no one else agrees with and it's kind of frustrating when half of your points (for instance, "he can only name a handful of houses". How do you know that, exactly? Did Jon give Stannis a house-naming quiz?) are conjured out of thin air.

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I learned a lot about conjuring out of thin air from reading threads about Stannis, Jory. It takes fire to fight fire.

As for who is the alternate Stannis, I guess we will have to wait and see. Or read a second time, perhaps.

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Hm . . . I´m not exactly anti-Stannis or pro-Stannis, so I´m not set on any scenario, but . . .

Let´s say that Stannis takes Winterfell from the Boltons, that Davos will bring Rickon to Manderly . . . All goes well for Stannis.

Logically, the Northmen should be honourbound to help Stannis gain the Iron Throne, BUT it will be winter, probably the worst and longest winter anyone can remember (the summer lasted for ten years after all), the North is already partly depopulated due to Robb´s unsuccessful campaign, and the crops are dwindling . . . Would it be really wise of them to go down south and fight in another war, no matter how righteous the cause may be? Wouldn´t it be better to save the rest of their strength and wait for spring/summer? If I was in their shoes, I woudn´t want to cross the Moat Caitlin any time soon, particularly not after Robb´s fiasco. Maybe they could hold the North (Moat Caitlin, Napoleon in Russia and so on), but I find it highly unbelievable that they would be enthusiastic about going south. Sure, they want to avenge their kin and correct the defeit they suffered, but this just appears to be a suicide plan, particularly so if Aegon ItIsNotProbablyReallyHim Targaryen is victorious over the exhausted Lannisters and the Tyrells which he probably will be.

Wouldn´t it be so much simpler for Manderly to say: "Well, thanks for bringing us Rickon Stark. But you know, he´s not really our liege lord. Our liege lord is his older brother Brandon. I told your Hand that both of them escaped from Winterfell. And I told him that should he bring me my liege lord, I will support your cause. He brought only Rickon, not Brandon. Those were not the terms. Yes, I misdirected him, but he should had known, really. Bye."

Yes, it would be particularly sleazy thing to do, but let´s face it, Wyman Manderly is sleazy - he ordered to make three people into the meat pies and then served them to the unknowing people on the wedding feast, including their (as far as we know) blameless kinswoman. People act as if it was only cool and not despicable because the affected were the Freys (and the poor wedding guests, who became cannibals never knowing about it :stillsick: ), but I personally don´t view it this way.

The way I see it, Stannis´only real chance in conquering the South lays in the sellsword companies. At least until the next spring, when the North will only begin to grow new crops and all. Justin Massey, better be quick to buy the sellswords, before all the good ones will be taken by the Free Cities in the war against Dany, who will probably go on the fiery rampage across Essos. :dunno:

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