Wind's Points of View.

[Arkash]

I've read something interesting around here, dunno who said it but it damn excited me:

Daenerys to divide her forces: one half of her army will go to Westeros via the East: crossing Essos and the Narrow Sea.

The other half will go West and cross the Shadow and the Sunset Seas and Dany will be of them.

I've always wanted Dany to arrive to Westeros via the Sunset Sea, but imagining her splitting her forces is damn exciting.

[redxavier]

Well as to the battle of fire that would only take up the first 300/400 pages, so no it wouldn't take 8 Dany and 8 Tyrion chapters to complete it. I'm thinking:

Prelude to battle:

. 3 Tyrion chapters

. 3 Dany chapters

. 1 Victarion chapter

Considering how much of ADWD was build up to this battle/climax, I don't think I could stomach 7 more chapters. Do you think we'd really need 3 Tyrion chapters AND 3 Dany chapters?

It's clear that we have at least 2 pre-battle chapters already (1 Victarion and 1 Tyrion), with possibly 1 more Tyrion chapter covering a meeting with Barristan which hopefully leads to the start of the fighting, but I don't think any from Dany will be necessary. Sometimes, people just showing up is great for drama. Imagine the impact that 3 Davos 'preparation and journey' chapters would have on Stannis' arrival at the Wall.

[protar]

Considering how much of ADWD was build up to this battle/climax, I don't think I could stomach 7 more chapters. Do you think we'd really need 3 Tyrion chapters AND 3 Dany chapters?

It's clear that we have at least 2 pre-battle chapters already (1 Victarion and 1 Tyrion), with possibly 1 more Tyrion chapter covering a meeting with Barristan which hopefully leads to the start of the fighting, but I don't think any from Dany will be necessary. Sometimes, people just showing up is great for drama. Imagine the impact that 3 Davos 'preparation and journey' chapters would have on Stannis' arrival at the Wall.

3 Dany chapters before the battle is about the minimum we can expect unless Martin decides to drop the Dothraki prophecy thing. We need to establish her situation in Jhaqo's khalasar, have her winning the allegiance of the Dosh Khaleen and she'll have to deal with Maggo as well. 3 chapters is pretty minimalistic. However having said that I had not considered the possibility of a narrative black out concerning Dany before the battle. It's a tempting notion, but will Martin do it, especially seeing as we've just had a long stretch without Dany in DWD.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't think Dany will show up at the Battle of Fire... Tyrion mentions that everyone expects Dany to turn up on Drogon, which makes me think Martin is going to go the other way and have her not come back until the battle is over -- meaning the other two dragons will have to provide the "fire".

I think the battle will be over by Tyrion's third chapter, assuming it will be covered by two Victarion chapters and a Barristan chapter. I believe Dany will have two chapters with the Dothraki before returning to Meereen. Her third chapter will hopefully be the meeting between Moqorro, Victarion, Tyrion, Jorah (and whoever else turns up!). After that we'll hopefully be seeing some progress with regards to her journey west.

[protar]

I don't think Dany will show up at the Battle of Fire... Tyrion mentions that everyone expects Dany to turn up on Drogon, which makes me think Martin is going to go the other way and have her not come back until the battle is over -- meaning the other two dragons will have to provide the "fire".

I think the battle will be over by Tyrion's third chapter, assuming it will be covered by two Victarion chapters and a Barristan chapter. I believe Dany will have two chapters with the Dothraki before returning to Meereen. Her third chapter will hopefully be the meeting between Moqorro, Victarion, Tyrion, Jorah (and whoever else turns up!). After that we'll hopefully be seeing some progress with regards to her journey west.

If Dany wasn't there for the battle that would indeed speed things a long, though I still think we'd need more than 3 Tyrion chapters. I mean we've still got the Harpy subplot to wrap up before the battle can get started. Would Barristan really be so stupid as to leave the city when he knows that the Sons of the Harpy could seize it once all his forces are in the field?

[blackseer]

If Dany wasn't there for the battle that would indeed speed things a long, though I still think we'd need more than 3 Tyrion chapters. I mean we've still got the Harpy subplot to wrap up before the battle can get started. Would Barristan really be so stupid as to leave the city when he knows that the Sons of the Harpy could seize it once all his forces are in the field?

I don't think Barristan will need to leave the city, just hold the gates. The ironborn + Second Sons + Windblowns and maybe the Volantenes will create chaos enough in the Yunkai'i army that they will flee. Remember, besides the sellswords companies, the army is made of slaves not trained for battle. Dany's arrival with the Dothraki will seal the battle of fire.

[Arkash]

There is also a wild parameter for the battle of Fire: two wild and untamed dragons who's allegiance goes for no-one and can sow chaos and destruction and turn the battle one way or another if not killed.

And I'm one of those who dont think Dany will show up anytime soon for the battle... I'd like that, in the end, book one was right: she will invade Westeros at the head of a Dothraki army... but not Drogo's khalasar, but all the khalasar united between her, for she is the Stallion that Mounts the World... I know, just a dream but that would be badass.

[Yeade]

I'm not sure how productive it is to speculate on the number and content of POVs in TWOW given that this is necessarily dependent on how the story develops, which everyone here can only theorize about to varying (probable) degrees of accuracy. Of course, that's no reason not to volunteer my opinions on the matter! ^_^

For starters, I believe GRRM can conceivably finish the series with just TWOW and ADOS provided he trims the fat that bloats AFFC/ADWD, reverts to his earlier style of covering long journeys and minor sequences of events in the space of a few paragraphs, and allows action to happen off the page, revisited only by the characters in memory. Theories like the Grand Northern Conspiracy have great unifying power, if true. Even Aegriff serves the purpose of making alliances in Westeros while Dany's still occupied in Essos that she can co-opt, likely in ADOS, to restore some sort of order to the south.

That said, I'd prefer Jon's ADWD cliffhanger to be resolved in the prologue of TWOW. Bowen Marsh as the POV, giving insight into the supposed conspiracy against Jon and aftermath of the attempted assassination while imprisoned in one of the ice cells. Jon makes his reappearance at the end to pass sentence on Marsh and take his head with Longclaw. I can honestly do without chapters of Jon warging in Ghost when he's bound to continue doing so, keeping in contact with Bran and Bloodraven, or Melisandre healing, possibly reviving, Jon's body when she can reminisce about this and doubt her dedication to Stannis as AAR in her later POVs. Confirm immediately what many already suspect--that Jon's story isn't finished--and leave readers on a kind of mini-cliffhanger by not returning to the Wall for a good portion of the novel.

Next order of business is to handle the battles for Winterfell and Meereen. I really can't decide which begins or concludes first, but I do agree Dany may not be done with the Dothraki before the Meereen situation's resolved one way or another. I'm also fond of the view that, as Jon's last chapter includes what seems to be an Unspoken Plan to deal with the Pink Letter, he'll ultimately be the one to kill Ramsay in a bastard showdown on the kingsroad. Meanwhile, assuming Stannis tricks the Boltons into believing him dead with the assistance of Manderly, it's possible Roose marches off to, say, the Dreadfort, where Stannis can then ambush him.

[POVs: Theon (1-2), Asha (1-2), Jon (1-2) AND/OR Melisandre (1-2), Daenerys (1-2), Tyrion (2-3), Victarion (1-2), Barristan (1)]

Meanwhile, in the south, political storylines like Cersei and Margaery's trials, Dorne's negotiations with Aegriff, and Littlefinger's ongoing machinations in the Vale can be advanced. Once the northern and eastern characters settle into more political action--Davos's hunt for Rickon, Robb's will resurfacing, and Asha's challenge to the kingsmoot; Dany finally meeting Tyrion et al., seeing to affairs like the Tattered Prince's claim to Pentos, and preparing to sail for Westeros--the southerners can go back to warring upon each other, lol. Potential factions include the Tyrells, ironborn, Faith Militant, Aegriff, and Dorne. Cersei may burn down King's Landing and escape to Casterly Rock with FrankenGregor. Sansa could be in the open, married to Harry the Heir, taking part in the northern succession crisis, but the Blackfish, Jaime, Brienne, FrankenGregor, and the Hound are perhaps coming to her. The Brotherhood Without Banners retaking Riverrun from the Freys with a repeat of the Red Wedding would occur sometime here, too.

[POVs: Cersei (2-3), Sansa (3-4), Arianne (1-2), Jon Connington (1-2), Jaime (1-2), Brienne (1), Davos (1-2), Theon (1) AND/OR Asha (1), Jon (1-2), Daenerys (1-2), Tyrion (1-2), Victarion (1-2), Aeron? Areo Hotah?]

I'd have the Others start putting serious pressure on the Wall towards the end of TWOW. Given that the Wall's defenses are partly magical in nature, I feel Melisandre, with her delusions of forcing prophecy to conform to her expectations, presents the most plausible explanation for how the Others and their forces can cross the Wall en masse. The fall of the Wall ought to be left as the final cliffhanger of the novel, IMO, along with Dany at last setting off for Westeros. ADOS can then open with Dany actually arriving in Westeros to confront Aegriff and whatever remains of the North's military strength already in a fighting retreat from the Others, probably led by Jon and taking temporary refuge in the ruins of Winterfell.

[POVs: Jon (1-2), Bran (1-2), Melisandre (1), Theon (1) AND/OR Davos (1)]

The subplots of Arya's training with the Faceless Men and Sam's adventures in the Citadel can really be inserted anywhere in this hypothetical narrative structure. Though I suppose Arya could return to Westeros in time to aid her sister in the Vale. Sam's almost certain to learn of dragons--maybe the proposed Valyrian defeat by skinchanging at Hardhome, exact cause of the Doom, connection of dragons to magic, full text of the PTWP/AAR prophecy?--knowledge that he'll need to get to Jon. Littlefinger's dead by the end of TWOW, IMO, and Varys won't last past the halfway point in ADOS or whenever the Aegriff deception collapses. Shortly thereafter, every character of consequence, except Bran and Bloodraven in the far north, will be gathered in the stretch of land from the Neck to Harrenhal with the amassed might of all Westeros for the series finale.

[POVs: Arya (1-2), Samwell (1-2)]

Well, that's what I'd do. Luckily, I'm not GRRM. :laugh:

[protar]

I'm not sure how productive it is to speculate on the number and content of POVs in TWOW given that this is necessarily dependent on how the story develops, which everyone here can only theorize about to varying (probable) degrees of accuracy. Of course, that's no reason not to volunteer my opinions on the matter! ^_^

For starters, I believe GRRM can conceivably finish the series with just TWOW and ADOS provided he trims the fat that bloats AFFC/ADWD, reverts to his earlier style of covering long journeys and minor sequences of events in the space of a few paragraphs, and allows action to happen off the page, revisited only by the characters in memory. Theories like the Grand Northern Conspiracy have great unifying power, if true. Even Aegriff serves the purpose of making alliances in Westeros while Dany's still occupied in Essos that she can co-opt, likely in ADOS, to restore some sort of order to the south.

That said, I'd prefer Jon's ADWD cliffhanger to be resolved in the prologue of TWOW. Bowen Marsh as the POV, giving insight into the supposed conspiracy against Jon and aftermath of the attempted assassination while imprisoned in one of the ice cells. Jon makes his reappearance at the end to pass sentence on Marsh and take his head with Longclaw. I can honestly do without chapters of Jon warging in Ghost when he's bound to continue doing so, keeping in contact with Bran and Bloodraven, or Melisandre healing, possibly reviving, Jon's body when she can reminisce about this and doubt her dedication to Stannis as AAR in her later POVs. Confirm immediately what many already suspect--that Jon's story isn't finished--and leave readers on a kind of mini-cliffhanger by not returning to the Wall for a good portion of the novel.

Next order of business is to handle the battles for Winterfell and Meereen. I really can't decide which begins or concludes first, but I do agree Dany may not be done with the Dothraki before the Meereen situation's resolved one way or another. I'm also fond of the view that, as Jon's last chapter includes what seems to be an Unspoken Plan to deal with the Pink Letter, he'll ultimately be the one to kill Ramsay in a bastard showdown on the kingsroad. Meanwhile, assuming Stannis tricks the Boltons into believing him dead with the assistance of Manderly, it's possible Roose marches off to, say, the Dreadfort, where Stannis can then ambush him.

[POVs: Theon (1-2), Asha (1-2), Jon (1-2) AND/OR Melisandre (1-2), Daenerys (1-2), Tyrion (2-3), Victarion (1-2), Barristan (1)]

Meanwhile, in the south, political storylines like Cersei and Margaery's trials, Dorne's negotiations with Aegriff, and Littlefinger's ongoing machinations in the Vale can be advanced. Once the northern and eastern characters settle into more political action--Davos's hunt for Rickon, Robb's will resurfacing, and Asha's challenge to the kingsmoot; Dany finally meeting Tyrion et al., seeing to affairs like the Tattered Prince's claim to Pentos, and preparing to sail for Westeros--the southerners can go back to warring upon each other, lol. Potential factions include the Tyrells, ironborn, Faith Militant, Aegriff, and Dorne. Cersei may burn down King's Landing and escape to Casterly Rock with FrankenGregor. Sansa could be in the open, married to Harry the Heir, taking part in the northern succession crisis, but the Blackfish, Jaime, Brienne, FrankenGregor, and the Hound are perhaps coming to her. The Brotherhood Without Banners retaking Riverrun from the Freys with a repeat of the Red Wedding would occur sometime here, too.

[POVs: Cersei (2-3), Sansa (3-4), Arianne (1-2), Jon Connington (1-2), Jaime (1-2), Brienne (1), Davos (1-2), Theon (1) AND/OR Asha (1), Jon (1-2), Daenerys (1-2), Tyrion (1-2), Victarion (1-2), Aeron? Areo Hotah?]

I'd have the Others start putting serious pressure on the Wall towards the end of TWOW. Given that the Wall's defenses are partly magical in nature, I feel Melisandre, with her delusions of forcing prophecy to conform to her expectations, presents the most plausible explanation for how the Others and their forces can cross the Wall en masse. The fall of the Wall ought to be left as the final cliffhanger of the novel, IMO, along with Dany at last setting off for Westeros. ADOS can then open with Dany actually arriving in Westeros to confront Aegriff and whatever remains of the North's military strength already in a fighting retreat from the Others, probably led by Jon and taking temporary refuge in the ruins of Winterfell.

[POVs: Jon (1-2), Bran (1-2), Melisandre (1), Theon (1) AND/OR Davos (1)]

The subplots of Arya's training with the Faceless Men and Sam's adventures in the Citadel can really be inserted anywhere in this hypothetical narrative structure. Though I suppose Arya could return to Westeros in time to aid her sister in the Vale. Sam's almost certain to learn of dragons--maybe the proposed Valyrian defeat by skinchanging at Hardhome, exact cause of the Doom, connection of dragons to magic, full text of the PTWP/AAR prophecy?--knowledge that he'll need to get to Jon. Littlefinger's dead by the end of TWOW, IMO, and Varys won't last past the halfway point in ADOS or whenever the Aegriff deception collapses. Shortly thereafter, every character of consequence, except Bran and Bloodraven in the far north, will be gathered in the stretch of land from the Neck to Harrenhal with the amassed might of all Westeros for the series finale.

[POVs: Arya (1-2), Samwell (1-2)]

Well, that's what I'd do. Luckily, I'm not GRRM. :laugh:

Yes luckily you're not.

I really don't see how any of the characters can be given decent arcs if even the most important characters get like 2 chapters a piece. That isn't going to happen. And I don't think we'll be getting a prologue at The Wall. The sample Theon chapter seemingly takes place before the pink letter is sent, so we'll need at least a couple of Theon chapters (and whatever chapters are in between them.) before we see the Wall, so it can't happen as a prologue. The Wall and Winterfell are too close to eachother to be so out of synch like that.

[Yeade]

Bah! You're right about the timing issues of my desired prologue, protar. Um. Handwave it away? I just like the dramatic construction and how it eliminates the need for chapters of Jon warging in Ghost or Melisandre scrambling about in the aftermath of the assassination attempt. I don't feel either of those can reveal any additional information that can't be incorporated into the story more efficiently through use of later character introspection. With both TWOW and ADOS terribly overburdened by plot already, I think it prudent to streamline wherever possible.

Nobody from the Wall would reappear until the timelines match up again, but readers can anticipate Jon showing up with an army of wildlings given that this is his last stated intention. I'm toying with the idea of denying Jon a POV until at least a third of the way into the novel, as well. Melisandre can observe him, and everyone can wonder about how he's been changed by his latest trauma. I guess this is too unconventional? Well, I still rather like the idea. ^_^

However, perhaps you misunderstand my bracketed chapter counts? Add those together. So, Tyrion, for example, has between three to five chapters, and this would be a rather conservative estimate. I tried to leave page space for expansion by assuming major events can be covered in single chapters with travel and other transitions, even minor actions, pretty much cut except for summary paragraphs.

Take Sansa in the Vale: One chapter for GRRM to update us readers on the situation there and, say, kill Robert Arryn. Next chapter details Littlefinger's preparations to reveal Sansa as a Stark and marry her to Harry the Heir. These are interspersed between the chapters covering the battle for Winterfell, during which time Davos also searches for Rickon, so that Sansa, Rickon, and Jon, with the addition of Robb's will, sync up with claims to Winterfell after it's been retaken from the Boltons. The next two or so chapters cover the implosion of Littlefinger's schemes and his probable death (at Sansa's hands?). By which point, Jaime may be in the Vale with his POV.

It's helpful that there's a great deal of overlap between some of the characters, too. Initial negotiations between Aegriff and the Dornish might be from Arianne's POV, then Jon Connington takes over as the Golden Company approaches King's Landing whether Arianne's left or no. What's more, Connington perhaps arrives in the capital just as Cersei flees it, ensuring an unbroken perspective on events in the city. Similarly, though Theon has a POV on Stannis's initial planning to attack the Boltons, Asha may continue the narration on whatever Bran's got in store for Theon and the actual fighting.

Likewise, I believe the northern POVs will regroup at the Wall by the end of TWOW. Thus, only Bran and Melisandre's magical viewpoints are needed along with some combination of Jon, Theon (with Asha), and Davos to handle the remaining political loose ends. Higher chapter counts aren't required because everybody's at the same location, quite possibly sitting in on the very same conversations, lol. Remember those days when Catelyn's the only POV on Robb's doings? I propose a return to that style, with the extra POVs accumulated over the years used for flavor.

Should GRRM resume the leisurely pace set in AFFC/ADWD, I'm afraid the series will have to be extended to at least eight novels. I really don't want to wait another decade or two to read the conclusion of ASOIAF...

[blackseer]

Should GRRM resume the leisurely pace set in AFFC/ADWD, I'm afraid the series will have to be extended to at least eight novels. I really don't want to wait another decade or two to read the conclusion of ASOIAF...

Protar is the fiercest defender of the 8 books possibility, so he doesn't mind the pacing. For me, it doesn't matter if it will be 7, 8 or 9 books (I don't want it to be, please), GRRM said it will be 2 more, so there will be 2 more stories. If they become too big, he'll split it, just like he did with AFfC and ADwD.

I like the idea of a POV blackout at the Wall for some period and we'll only know what happened there from the POV of someone in Winterfell (if Stannis retakes it). Only after we would see things through Mel's POV.

[protar]

Protar is the fiercest defender of the 8 books possibility, so he doesn't mind the pacing. For me, it doesn't matter if it will be 7, 8 or 9 books (I don't want it to be, please), GRRM said it will be 2 more, so there will be 2 more stories. If they become too big, he'll split it, just like he did with AFfC and ADwD.

I like the idea of a POV blackout at the Wall for some period and we'll only know what happened there from the POV of someone in Winterfell (if Stannis retakes it). Only after we would see things through Mel's POV.

Well I would prefer a faster SOS esque pace, I just don't see that Martin would be able to squish everything in two books no matter how fast he sets the pace. There's just so much to cover.

[blackseer]

One thing that is not very considered here is that Jon might not be POV anymore. If he truly died, he may have changed enough for Martin to keep him out of the POV pool. Even if he resides in Ghost for the time, we don`t know the effects of dewarging back to his original body. And we do have enough POVs in the North that could follow him, like Mel, Theon, Bran, Davos and even Asha, one of them could stay besides him, and Sam, if he comes back.

[Yeade]

You know, I am young enough that I can afford to wait another decade or two for GRRM to finish writing ASOIAF, lol, and I do enjoy AFFC/ADWD. However, I also believe GRRM can rightly be criticized for ADWD's narrative structure.

While the major character arcs (Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Theon) are complete, the same cannot be said for the plot; at least one of the two battles readers have been anticipating for hundreds of pages should've been in the novel. Since GRRM apparently wants Jon on that cliffhanger of his, the outcome of events around Winterfell must be kept secret. It doesn't seem as if it'd be difficult to cover the battle for Meereen, though, and this huge action set piece might've gone a ways toward redeeming the plodding pace of the eastern storylines in the eyes of many readers.

Speculation here puts the battle for Meereen at three chapters for Tyrion, two for Victarion, and one for Barristan. What's more, Dany need not return to take part, and the last Tyrion POV could be mostly politics in the aftermath of the fighting. So, really, five chapters for the actual battle (Victarion, Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion), ending with everybody in Meereen wondering where the hell their queen's disappeared off to and what ought to be done next, followed by Dany's chapter of wandering in the Dothraki sea.

Had ADWD been better edited and GRRM not so self-indulgent in his writing to begin with, I think this would've been possible. Then some of the pressure on TWOW to pick up the narrative can be relieved, too.

Anyways, I'm still hopeful GRRM can find the discipline required to conclude his series in just two additional books. Like I said before, converging storylines and overlapping POVs should be of great help in this task.

blackseer, what I propose isn't exactly a total blackout on Wall POVs. I'm fond of the theory that Jon will be the one to kill Ramsay, which means he leaves the Wall with the wildlings as he intends in ADWD. My idea's to give Melisandre the POV on all this--let's say she decides to accompany Jon south, a bit amazed as she is by her own power in Jon's revival, itself a miracle she hasn't any explanation for--during which time she can reminisce about what happened after the assassination attempt. Melisandre, however, isn't privy to whatever Jon's done to order the affairs of the NW, so that'll remain a mystery along with Jon's mentality.

Now, protar's already pointed out the timeline issues of my hypothetical prologue. OTOH, GRRM's arguably created this problem by writing the Pink Letter into Jon's last ADWD chapter, then heading back to before any fighting's taken place at Winterfell for what's presumably Theon's first chapter in TWOW. In light of this, I feel perfectly justified in using the prologue, always a little nebulous in setting, to heighten the drama, lol. Jon, through Melisandre's POV, can then sync up with the Winterfell characters after the Boltons are dead.

I doubt Jon's been permanently removed as a POV, though. If R+L=J proves true--a possibility that's nearly a certainty, IMO--the revelation must be seen through Jon's eyes. Any other method is simply unacceptable so far as characterization and dramatic imperative go. Ditto for other potential developments such as Robb naming Jon heir and a romance with Dany.

[CrypticWeirwood]

That said, I'd prefer Jon's ADWD cliffhanger to be resolved in the prologue of TWOW. Bowen Marsh as the POV, giving insight into the supposed conspiracy against Jon and aftermath of the attempted assassination while imprisoned in one of the ice cells. Jon makes his reappearance at the end to pass sentence on Marsh and take his head with Longclaw.

The prologues always have something to do with the supernatural, with magic. They open our eyes to something new. I suppose what you propose could play into that, but I imagine that Martin will save Jon’s return (whether that be simple recovery, full-blown resurrection, or wightish reanimation) till later on in the book.

[Yeade]

Yeah, CrypticWeirwood, I know the prologues have followed a certain pattern of revealing supernatural shenanigans in the north and south, alternately. GRRM need not stick to this method, though. Especially with the series drawing to a conclusion and most of the magical elements already in place within the main story.

Again, the reason why I favor this somewhat unconventional prologue is because it spares me from having to read chapters of Jon warging in Ghost or Melisandre running about in the aftermath of the assassination attempt. In addition, I'm not sure how the details of the supposed conspiracy to oust Jon can be told otherwise without a chapter of expository interrogation. Sure, Marsh's motivations and the extent of the plot against Jon (Yarwyck, Selyse) can be left a mystery, but then I think people are always going to find his last chapter in ADWD really confusing, to the point where theories of magical coercion (Borroq, Melisandre, Bran, Bloodraven) are seriously being considered, lol.

ETA: In fact, the ASOS prologue serves a similar purpose to what I propose. Nothing new's learned of the Others and wights except that the Night's Watch, some of whom are instigating a mutiny against Mormont, is attacked by them at the Fist of the First Men. The outcome of the battle is a sort of mini-cliffhanger that keeps until Jon's second chapter, though the fate of the survivors remains in question until Sam's subsequent POV and his memories of that night at about the end of the book's first quarter.

Furthermore, I feel delaying Jon's return until after the battle for Winterfell finishes a good third of the way into TWOW does the pace of the narrative no favors. I happen to be of the opinion that Jon isn't through with the NW yet given that the life expectancies of his would-be killers are comparable to that of fruit flies, lol, if indeed the wildlings don't wipe out the crows at Castle Black entirely.

So, let Jon arrange matters at the Wall to his satisfaction off the page while the Winterfell characters catch up. He can tell us readers of it later when his first POV rolls around, and everybody north of the Neck will be ready, again in sync on the same timeline, for proposed events in the south such as Littlefinger's schemes to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir, the Brotherhood Without Banners retaking Riverrun during Daven Lannister's wedding, and the long awaited reappearance of Robb's will naming Jon king.

Really, the more I ponder this idea, the more I like its dramatic potential and power in consolidating the northern storylines. Folks have suggested that TWOW not visit the Wall again except in an epilogue POV that sees it fall, but I can't figure out how this would work with the various groups known or likely to be headed there--fake!Arya and her escort per Theon's spoiler chapter; the Riverrun men who opt to take the black in AFFC, suspected to be carrying news of Jon's legitimization as King in the North; Davos with Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog, as Skagos is a lot closer to the Wall than anywhere else.

Not to mention, where do Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen, and the queensmen flee to should Marsh and his faction take control of the Wall? Ramsay Bolton's demanded all of them as hostages and, while Jon plans to defend them, I doubt Marsh has the courage to. So, they run to the Nightfort? What about Yarwyck's builders there? Go south with the wildlings? Who hate and fear them?

Jon truly is the linchpin of the alliances on the Wall. If he's out of action for an extended period, everything falls apart. Of course, some believe this to be the desired outcome, but it creates trouble for ongoing plots elsewhere, IMO, that'll be a pain to resolve.

edit:

On another note, I understand GRRM's promised excursions to Casterly Rock and Highgarden. Cersei can flee King's Landing for Casterly Rock with FrankenGregor, but how to get a POV in Highgarden? Though Sam's the closest geographically, he'll likely be occupied with Sarella!Alleras, Jaqen!Pate, and intrigues at the Citadel as well as Oldtown (Hightowers).

The solution, I think, is to send Jon Connington there. Let's say to broker an alliance with Randyll Tarly to betray the Tyrells for Aegriff. I still prefer Connington as the POV should Aegriff take King's Landing for the nostalgia factor, but Arianne (the younger, more beautiful queen?) can stay in the capital with her cousins while Connington rides off to spread greyscale in the Reach, lol.

What say you all? ^_^

[blackseer]

I like the idea of a POV blackout at Wall and when we finally see it again, right after the battle of Ice or during it, it will still be a mess. The anti-Snow will have the control of Castle Black, taking Selyse, Shireen, Melisandre and their defenders as hostages. Most of the wildlings will have fled to other castles and those that stayed are confined in the ice cells, alongside Jon's supporters and his dying body.

During the battle of Ice, when Stannis troops are losing and falling appart, he tries to raise the morale by showing them Lightbringer, but instead of a sword shinning like sunset, it's just a burnt one. He eventually wins, thanks to Manderly's support, but is very puzzled and disappointed by that humiliation. Later we learn that Mel got imprisioned in the ice cells, after trying something to help Jon, therefore her magic cannot reach Stannis or Mance anymore.

As my new possibility suggests, I don't think everything in the North should be resolved or be in good ways to be resolved in this book. I think one of the Boltons should survive, the threat of the Others should become the catalyst of the solution and Bran will have to overcome his trauma of Jaime halfway through the book and decides that he does not want to become a tree for the rest of his life (what Bloodraven will say to that, I have no idea). If it was up to me to decide, Bran and Sam would be the most important characters in TWoW, even if they don't have the most chapters.

[Where Went Whent]

Why do i have this feeling lord baelish would die?? I love the guy best of everybody in westeros and the free cities...well i like the titan of braavos next, but thats a statue. If baelish dies...oh sorrow, imma whip my self

[Where Went Whent]

winds of winter would be epic. We wont be seeing varys for sure, and we wont be seeing much of Cersei. Jon snow is prolly dead or being nursed back to health in secret. I also have a feeling we will be seeing some misfortune befalling randyll tarly now that he's caught in the wbs of the red keep. Daenerys has been kinda boring since storm of swords. I hope she lands on westeros soon and put and end to the mess. She might kill aegon too. Ahh my head's all woozy from so many possibilities. Bealish, pls dont die... For my sake

[Faint]

One of the more interesting comments GRRM has made recently concerns his dealing with the cliffhangers he left us on, promising, in effect, to sort them out early in the next book. He didn't get too specific on the subject but I wonder whether Jon's fate was included amongst those cliffhangers he was referring to.