Wind's Points of View.

[Im With Stannis]

Yes, that would be a shock indeed, provided Tyrion has the biggest number of chapters so far and GRRM admited he's one of his favourite characters. But I'm not saying it's completely out of question, there's no such thing in ASOIAF I guess. The question is: what could be the point of potential Tyrion's death? Cos I don't believe a "shock value" would be enough. But it's worth discussing.

I suspect Dany will put Tyrion down, heading Barristan's advice and remembering the "don't trust the lion, the griffin, the mummer's dragon and the perfumed sensechal" warning (paraphrased, of course). Why would she trust Tyrion? What in the world does he really have to offer anyone at this point?

[protar]

I suspect Dany will put Tyrion down, heading Barristan's advice and remembering the "don't trust the lion, the griffin, the mummer's dragon and the perfumed sensechal" warning (paraphrased, of course). Why would she trust Tyrion? What in the world does he really have to offer anyone at this point?

It wasn't Barristan's advice it was Quaithes. In all likelyhood Tyrion will enter Meereen before Dany gets back, so he'll have Barristan to deal with rather than Dany. We don't really know much of their relationship but it's not completely unreasonable for them to have gotten on. Tyrion was always the friendlies of the Lannisters. And considering he'll be coming into Meereen with possibly 2 sellsword companies at his back (he'll probably help out with the Windblown as well as the Second Sons.). And then there is his knowledge of Dragons, and of the Lannisters of course. So likely by the time Dany returns Tyrion will already be in a position of power in Meereen with Barristan vouching for him, so no he's not going to die.

Sort of off topic though tbh.

[Arkash]

Quaithe didnt told to Dany to beware of all of them. Just the perfumed seneschal...

[Fearsome Fred]

But about Joncon, having Storm's End as a prologue would be a waste of a prologue.

But why?

Because you don't want to read about the fall of Storm's End?

Because you want to read about the fall of Storm's End, but, for some strange reason, don't want to read it FIRST?

Because you want to read about the fall of Storm's End, but, for some strange reason, think this would be a total waste if told from the POV of anyone other than Jon Connington?

There are lots of other events that could be covered in the prologue (the hunt for Darkstar being my prefered choice.), and furthermore these events can only really be covered in the prologue.

Well, first off, I don't see how the hunt for Darkstar needs its own POV chapter. Prince Doran has sent Ser Balon on a wild goose chase as a delaying tactic. The inevitable failure of his mission is worth no more than a 1-paragraph update in someone else's POV.

But if, for some strange reason, the hunt for Darkstar does require its own POV, this does not need to occur in the prologue.

Yes, there are a zillion other things he could write about. No limits. And if he insists on writing about them, he will never finish the series. He needs discipline and he needs focus.

Storm's End however can be covered easily via Joncon's pov.

That does not mean it SHOULD be handled via JonCon's POV. Anyone present can tell the story, and the POV of the defenders might be more fun.

So for someone that wants story efficiency surely you realise that It's narratively more efficient for the prologues to be used as windows into areas that the current POV's can't access.

No. "Narrative efficiency" does not require one to constantly and automatically add new POVs. What a strange concept.

Furthermore we don't know how far into the book Arianne II is.

Somewhere within the 1st 100 manuscript pages (or first 5 chapters, approximately).

[blackseer]

Somewhere within the 1st 100 manuscript pages (or first 5 chapters, approximately).

Not necessarily. GRRM doesn't write in order of chapters. But it's very probable that it will be at the beginning of the book, first quarter.

Well, first off, I don't see how the hunt for Darkstar needs its own POV chapter. Prince Doran has sent Ser Balon on a wild goose chase as a delaying tactic. The inevitable failure of his mission is worth no more than a 1-paragraph update in someone else's POV.

But if, for some strange reason, the hunt for Darkstar does require its own POV, this does not need to occur in the prologue.

I guess we all want Darkstar to become an interesting character, that's why we wish something big enough to need a POV happen in this hunt. Maybe, even involving the main branch of the Daynes, who are yet to appear in the story.

[protar]

But why?

Because you don't want to read about the fall of Storm's End?

Because you want to read about the fall of Storm's End, but, for some strange reason, don't want to read it FIRST?

Because you want to read about the fall of Storm's End, but, for some strange reason, think this would be a total waste if told from the POV of anyone other than Jon Connington?

Well, first off, I don't see how the hunt for Darkstar needs its own POV chapter. Prince Doran has sent Ser Balon on a wild goose chase as a delaying tactic. The inevitable failure of his mission is worth no more than a 1-paragraph update in someone else's POV.

But if, for some strange reason, the hunt for Darkstar does require its own POV, this does not need to occur in the prologue.

Yes, there are a zillion other things he could write about. No limits. And if he insists on writing about them, he will never finish the series. He needs discipline and he needs focus.

That does not mean it SHOULD be handled via JonCon's POV. Anyone present can tell the story, and the POV of the defenders might be more fun.

No. "Narrative efficiency" does not require one to constantly and automatically add new POVs. What a strange concept.

Somewhere within the 1st 100 manuscript pages (or first 5 chapters, approximately).

It would be a waste of a prologue because a prologue is a once per book opportunity. It should be used wisely, not on an event that can allready be covered by POV characters. I can see why you might disagree, but you don't actually seem to be understanding my point. Every prologue/epilogue in ASOIAF, has been used to give us a window into a location, or information the other POV's can't give. Have the fall of Storm's End take place from a random POV does not achieve this.

Also, who says Balon fails in the hunt for Darkstar? Him suceeding and uncovering the Dornish treachery would be much more interesting. So what you'd rather we get a random Areo chapter were he hears about it? What a waste of time that would be.

Well your next point I've already really covered. I think you've completely misunderstood the entire point of what the prologues are for.

There's no way you can know when the Arianne chapter takes place. For all we know her arc could start towards the end of the books first quarter.

[Ladywhiskers]

Well since we've seen him die or get stabbed many times, i think he is dead. But then again the Prologue was about Varamyr who talks alot about living a second life in a animal. I think Varamyr might be a complete waste of a POV if Jon is truly dead. One thing i'm quite certain of is that he won't be the same. We learned that death really changes people. Like the sweet and loving Catelyn, she became a heartless monster who seeks nothing but revenge. She even tried to kill Brienne who was trying to find Sansa. I think the Jon we knew is gone.

Catelyn was only sweet and loving in a certain context. She always had that blind, vengeful side. It came out in her treatment of Jon Snow. It came out in her treatment of Tyrion, when Tyrion was completely innocent but Catelyn didn't want to hear it. When Tyrion pointed out that he'd never have bet against his family, and also pointed out that it would be pretty stupid for someone to arm an assassin with his own dagger, that was her cue to untie him, and send the dagger to King Robert. But Cat had this blind "family, duty, honor" thing going on, and she still does. I think if anything dying distills people down to their strongest emotions. Cat's just less nuanced than she used to be.

So I don't think the Jon we knew is gone at all--the Catelyn we knew is still alive and kicking in there. I'm sure she'd dote on her children if they were brought to her...except possibly Sansa, who is a Lannister by marriage now. Also, remember, Catelyn rotted for days in the river--Jon won't, even if he is dead. (I don't think he is.) Jon wasn't vengeful--when he was harsh it was mainly to keep up appearances, like when he beheaded Janos Slynt. So I don't think we'll see a reanimated Jon Snow running around the countryside looking for people to kill to avenge every wrong that's ever been done to anyone. That's never been his thing, and it has always been Cat's.

[Ladywhiskers]

I disagree with you, simply on the grounds that I am not yet certain that the valonqar is actually referring to Cersei's brothers by blood. It could be just over thinking, but I suspect that it would be too easy if it was Tyrion or Jaime. Having it be Jaime is convenient because it gives people the satisfaction of seeing Cersei fall by the hand of the brother she loves, having turned her other brother against her by assuming the valonqar would be Tyrion, and hating him her entire life. But I think it would pull a fast one on Cersei and readers if Jaime was killed, and the valonqar was NOT Tyrion. As soon as Jaime dies, everyone would assume that Tyrion would be the one to kill her, but to be honest, I don't think Tyrion would have it in him to kill his sister. As much as he hates Cersei, I have this inkling that he pities her (or is on his way to pitying her) more than anything. On a grander scale, I think that pity for Cersei is something that a number of POV characters are beginning to develop, and I think Martin has done an admirable job in placing a more sympathetic light on her. Her death, if it ever comes to fruition, is not one that I anticipate Martin writing in contempt, but rather as an example of how hated a character can be from the very beginning of a story, with everyone wishing she would just die already, and then when the moment finally comes, we realize that she doesn't really deserve death.

I disagree about Tyrion. He had it in him to kill his father. He had it in him to kill Shae. He's got way more reason to kill Cersei. She's ruined his life in a far more active, aggressive, hands-on way. He owes what may be a straight on face-heel turn to her. If he's going to kill people, one of them ought to be Cersei.

I know that Martin has a habit of taking all the fun out of our revenge fantasies. I won't be relishing Jaime's death, for example, because having been inside his head I know he wants to do better, and is just a little baffled about how. But Cersei? There is no redeeming Cersei. Cersei allowed Joffrey to torture Tommen and kill his pets. She shoved her best friend down a well when she was a child. She demanded that Lady be killed. She was going to have Arya killed. Everyone who's ever been in her life, including Jaime, has just been a tool to be used. I know she can't die until near the end, because she's the most hatable person in the books. She sent Jeyne Poole with LF so she could be trained to marry Bolton. Cersei should have to marry Ramsay Bolton! (Please God no Ramsay Bolton viewpoint, not ever, please oh please....)

I like her POV's--hope we get a lot more of them. She is at least a very interesting villain.

[Arkash]

Catelyn was only sweet and loving in a certain context. She always had that blind, vengeful side. It came out in her treatment of Jon Snow. It came out in her treatment of Tyrion, when Tyrion was completely innocent but Catelyn didn't want to hear it. When Tyrion pointed out that he'd never have bet against his family, and also pointed out that it would be pretty stupid for someone to arm an assassin with his own dagger, that was her cue to untie him, and send the dagger to King Robert. But Cat had this blind "family, duty, honor" thing going on, and she still does. I think if anything dying distills people down to their strongest emotions. Cat's just less nuanced than she used to be.

Very interesting Catelyn analysis, and really truth !

And for Jon... well, remember Beric, he was still quite... normal after being killed, maybe Jon will be too !

[Landis]

I disagree about Tyrion. He had it in him to kill his father. He had it in him to kill Shae. He's got way more reason to kill Cersei. She's ruined his life in a far more active, aggressive, hands-on way. He owes what may be a straight on face-heel turn to her. If he's going to kill people, one of them ought to be Cersei.

I know that Martin has a habit of taking all the fun out of our revenge fantasies. I won't be relishing Jaime's death, for example, because having been inside his head I know he wants to do better, and is just a little baffled about how. But Cersei? There is no redeeming Cersei. Cersei allowed Joffrey to torture Tommen and kill his pets. She shoved her best friend down a well when she was a child. She demanded that Lady be killed. She was going to have Arya killed. Everyone who's ever been in her life, including Jaime, has just been a tool to be used. I know she can't die until near the end, because she's the most hatable person in the books. She sent Jeyne Poole with LF so she could be trained to marry Bolton. Cersei should have to marry Ramsay Bolton! (Please God no Ramsay Bolton viewpoint, not ever, please oh please....)

I like her POV's--hope we get a lot more of them. She is at least a very interesting villain.

Hahaha I get what you are saying, but I really don't think Tyrion will kill her, precisely because of the amount of hatred. I maintain the pity stance, but I think that it is an evolution of the hate he has for her. One of their most fascinating interactions in CoK was when she picked him up and hugged him, swinging him around like a child, and he thought something along the lines of "This must be what it feels like to be Jaime" and he comes to a realization that this Cersei is one that would understandably be loved. When it happened, I almost expected this to be a turning point for the better in their relationship, but Tyrion used the opportunity to poison her and put her out of commission.

I don't know, but I think the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion has become too complex for Tyrion to off her. It would take a lot for Cersei to get to that same place, because she still seems to believe that Tyrion killed her oldest son, but I don't think that it's impossible. I have a feeling that Jaime's death (I'm functioning on the assumption that this definitely happens, and I'm by no means ignoring the size of those error bars) will be the tipping point for Cersei and Tyrion to reconcile. They're hardly going to be BFFs, but they won't be after each other's heads anymore either.

PS: I might be making this up, but wasn't there a passage where Tyrion or Jaime attributed Cersei's treatment of Tyrion to Tywin? I seem to recall that being proposed by someone, and it sort of acknowledged that while Cersei was a total psycho bitch, she only became that way because of the influences that were forced on her... I'm rereading now, and if I find it I'll post a source... otherwise, write me off as a loony, by all means :dunce:

[Jory]

Fall of Storm's End prologue, from the POV of Aegon. lol.

[Arkash]

I doubt it.

The fall of SE will be seen via JonCon and Arianne.

And it would be lame if Aegon was to die so soon.

[K1NGSLAYER]

Fall of Storm's End prologue, from the POV of Aegon. lol.

Haha, lol that would be hilarious.

[Landis]

I doubt it.

The fall of SE will be seen via JonCon and Arianne.

But in Arianne II, hadn't Storm's End already fallen to JonCon and Aegon? We don't have a transcript of the chapter, but that was the impression I was given. And Arianne hasn't met either of them yet, as she is on her way there from Dorne... So the fall of Storm's End can't be seen from her POV, as it happens before she arrives. Unless my crackpot theory prevails and Storms End falls a second time to the oncoming Tyrell army, in which case Arianne could be present.

Sidebar: if the Tyrells did conquer Storms End, and took Arianne prisoner, that would have major potential to declaw Lady Nym and Tyene in King's Landing, who seem likely to pose influence on Marg's trial. The Tyrells taking Arianne hostage would be a good development in the tug-o'-war between the two houses, as well as in the capital. #leverage

[blackseer]

But in Arianne II, hadn't Storm's End already fallen to JonCon and Aegon? We don't have a transcript of the chapter, but that was the impression I was given. And Arianne hasn't met either of them yet, as she is on her way there from Dorne... So the fall of Storm's End can't be seen from her POV, as it happens before she arrives. Unless my crackpot theory prevails and Storms End falls a second time to the oncoming Tyrell army, in which case Arianne could be present.

Sidebar: if the Tyrells did conquer Storms End, and took Arianne prisoner, that would have major potential to declaw Lady Nym and Tyene in King's Landing, who seem likely to pose influence on Marg's trial. The Tyrells taking Arianne hostage would be a good development in the tug-o'-war between the two houses, as well as in the capital. #leverage

I would hate to see that, but it's possible. Unlikely, because Mace isn't a good general and even Tarly should have some trouble conquering SE, but possible. I still think it was a hasty decision by Doran to send Arianne. It doesn't match his personality so far. He is risking his heir and two of his nieces, without the guarantee that his son's mission is doing fine (it failed, but he doesn't know). I hope GRRM releases Arianne 1 sometime soon.

[Faint]

This isn't an issue about the number of individual POVs. What is key is the number of distinct storylines and right now there are roughly 13. That's what has to get cut down. Once you have several POVs in one storyline it isn't necessary to kill off POVs, you can simply rotate between them or establish one POV and drop the others.

So, as of now:

The North/Iron Islands

1. Jon/Melisandre

2. Theon/Asha

3. Aeron

4. Davos

The Vale

5. Sansa

The Riverlands/The Crownlands

6. Jaime/Brienne

7. Cersei

The Stormlands

8. Jon/Arianne

Dorne/The Reach

9. Areo

10. Sam

North of the Wall

11. Bran

Braavos

12. Arya

Meereen

13. Daenerys/Tyrion/Victarion/Barristan

---

If GRRM can cut down these 13 storylines in half to, say, 6 during the course of TWoW, we should be okay heading forward.

[protar]

This is true of course, and Martin has said that he's trying now to reconverge all the plot lines. But that still doesn't change the fact that apart from a few areas (KL, Slaver's Bay) we don't really need more than one POV per area. It would still make the story feel a bit more bloated IMO.

Also, just a little nitpick but you've grouped the plotlines rather roughly. The Iron Isle for instance have yet to really connect to what's going on in the North overmuch. Yes they're present, but the plot on the isles in TWOW seems to be Aeron's struggle against Euron's reign, whereas The North at the moment is focused on finding a Stark heir and ousting the Boltons.

[blackseer]

This isn't an issue about the number of individual POVs. What is key is the number of distinct storylines and right now there are roughly 13. That's what has to get cut down. Once you have several POVs in one storyline it isn't necessary to kill off POVs, you can simply rotate between them or establish one POV and drop the others.

So, as of now:

The North/Iron Islands

1. Jon/Melisandre

2. Theon/Asha

3. Aeron

4. Davos

The Vale

5. Sansa

The Riverlands/The Crownlands

6. Jaime/Brienne

7. Cersei

The Stormlands

8. Jon/Arianne

Dorne/The Reach

9. Areo

10. Sam

North of the Wall

11. Bran

Braavos

12. Arya

Meereen

13. Daenerys/Tyrion/Victarion/Barristan

---

If GRRM can cut down these 13 storylines in half to, say, 6 during the course of TWoW, we should be okay heading forward.

Nicely done.

So, what I think will be the storylines at the end of TWoW or the beginning of ADoS:

1. The war in the north will stop and all the characters will focus on the Others/wights, merging the Jon/Mel/Theon/Asha/Davos story, or at least the ones that survived so far.

2. JonCon will try to attack KL, merging his storyline with Cersei, although I think will see most of this from Arianne and the Queen's POV.

3. Sam in the Citadel.

4 Bran will try to help those at the Wall and have to choose if he becomes a tree or not.

5. Tyrion (or someone else) coming back through the Demon Road, seeing Valyria.

The rest I am not sure. I think Sansa will stay at the Vale for the time being. Arya will come back to Westeros, but where, I have no idea. Dany is also coming back, but where. I don't think Areo will have a storyline in this book. not sure where Aeron will end up. And I hope the BwB does something big, really big, but most disagree and i won't bet on it.

[Arkash]

Some of those characters do have to start a new story arc, we let them on twists last time we saw them:

1. Jon/Melisandre

4. Davos

5. Sansa

6. Jaime/Brienne

10. Sam

12. Arya

Those characters are the ones left on a cliffhanger !

[Landis]

Anybody else noted that Arya is the only character that has had a POV chapter in all five books? Not as many as other characters, obviously, but it's kind of funny how that worked out.