From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[Gingerly Grumkin]

But seriously any connection with the old gods...

[headtrip_honey]

But seriously any connection with the old gods...

This thread is a reread, although it has gone sadly off topic.

Anyway, I think while Sansa initially seems to have more connection to the Seven, like her mother, as the story goes on she turns more and more to the Old Gods. When in the Eyrie she is sad that there isn't a weirwood, for example.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

This thread is a reread, although it has gone sadly off topic.

Anyway, I think while Sansa initially seems to have more connection to the Seven, like her mother, as the story goes on she turns more and more to the Old Gods. When in the Eyrie she is sad that there isn't a weirwood, for example.

well its kind of on topic, the chapter is about the old gods leaving her, but point taken

[headtrip_honey]

well its kind of on topic, the chapter is about the old gods leaving her, but point taken

...no it's not, that's your interpretation, but that is not the chapter's main theme, I'd say.

[brashcandy]

To bring the thread back on topic, and relevant to the chapter Rapsie discussed, did anyone else feel sorry for Jeyne in this chapter? Not so much over her being inconsolable at the knight's death, but to see the innocent girl she was, talking about marrying Beric, even more prone to hysterics and fantasies than Sansa, and then knowing how awfully she is used by Littlefinger later on. :(

The man was uber-creepy in this chapter. The Hound (looking at you MDIND) was as usual, drunk and threatening. The line is thin, but it's important.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I can say that Jeyne crying in this chapter was much easier to read then in ADWD, but i think we see Jeyne cry to contrast Sansa with "dry tears cuz of Bran and Lady"

[Mindrot]

1.You keep saying that the decision was Robert's, and you're correct. It was. And he was cowardly. And guess what? Ned tried to sway him. "Robert, you cannot mean this. Please, Robert, for the love you bore my sister. Please." But STILL Robert cowed to Cersei.

2.And would have no matter what Sansa said.

3.Especially since what Sansa said had absolutely nothing to do with Lady. Even if she had related the story in entirety, it would still have been shown that Nymeria attacked Joff. In defense of Arya, yes, who, by the way, escaped unscathed. And guess what? Nymeria was wild and uncontrollable, much like her owner. Cersei would have argued that any dispute between Arya and Joff might end with Nymeria attacking him.

Even LADY scares grown men when her owner isn't even physically threatened.

4. Your desire to keep pinning the blame of a beloved pet's death on an eleven year old girl is disgusting.

1. I posted Roberts final statement to Ned in regards to the wolves, after his plea and he states "A direwolf is a savage beast...." that is the reason he gives Ned for wanting the wolves put down. You call Robert a coward, and act like he does everything Cersei wants him to do because of this, which is very clearly NOT how their relationship works. He is the King, and while he will cave to the demands of Cersei (as he did in this situation) it is NOT a given that he does everything Cersei demands of him. The very nature of their relationship is conflict, not "Cersei demands something, Robert meekly agrees to it". Someone posted that Cersei wanted Arya maimed or killed for harming Joff, did that happen? Did the cowardly Robert give in to that demand? No. In the end his argument is that the wolves are dangerous, and must be put down. An argument that is strengthened by Joffs story of what happened.

2. You cannot prove this statement. It is impossible to say that Sansa's testimony would not have swayed Robert.

3. Someone else replied that Nymeria was not wild and uncontrollable, which is true. Arya calls Nymeria off after she disarms Joff, and the wolf pads right over to her. It was not like they had to pry her jaws off Joffs arm or something. She protected Arya, when Arya calls her, she comes. That happens at the riverbank and CANNOT be disputed. The wolf was never wild and out of control. Cersei's argument that the wolf would have attack Joff during a dispute no matter what would not have any legs because why are Joff and Arya fighting? Because Mycah and Arya ambushed the crown prince with clubs? That story is ludicrous, and would be even more so with Sansa's testimony destroying it.

4. This is clearly the problem you have with any of my posts. No matter how solid an argument I could make you will not admit to me being right because you think I am trying to pin all the blame on Sansa and you hate me for it. I have stated OVER AND OVER that I am not doing that. I am only showing that she bears PART OF the blame for what happened to Lady, because she lied.

[1234567]

@Mindrot

No we (HH) and myself disagree with your conclusions based on the textual evidence and that your argument deviates dramatically from how Robert is characterized in the series. Please look at the way Robert treats Eddard after Jaime attacks him and also demands that Catlyn have Tyrion released. Look at the way he doesn't bring Mya to court because of Cersei. Look at the Tourney where Cersei goads him into saying he will take part in the melee (only Eddard and Barristan the next day manage to talk some sense into him and that is minus the presence of the Queen. Cersei knows how to press his buttons and get her own way.

[Mindrot]

1. Lady was never under threat. Had she been and indeed if Sansa was aware how grave the situation was, she may have acted differently. Neither her or Arya had faced a situation like this before or this level of fear and hostility.

2. Cersei demanding Lady's death was completely out of left field and Robert was a complete and awful coward. It's the adults that are to blame, not the 11 year old or 9 year old girls!

3. Sansa is guilty of not backing up her sister and it's her she should apologise too. But Lady's death was a power play between Robert and Cersei. Good Lord we find out in ACOK that Joff had a pet fawn of Tommen's killed and skinned to make him a leather jerkin. Cersei wanted her revenge and a wolf pelt, it was only Ned who stopped her getting that as well.

1. This is exactly the point I am trying to make. Had Sansa told the truth, perhaps things would have played out differently, perhaps not. The fact that it never entered her mind that in the next 10 minutes her wolf would be executed only strengthens my argument. What if she somehow had known what was going to happen. Do you think she would have lied, or do you think she would have told everyone the truth of what happened. With emphasis on how Nymeria only disarmed Joff, and immedietly upon being called off by Arya, stopped attacking him? How Joff was the aggressor OF THE ENTIRE ENCOUNTER, until he was disarmed. Arya only attacked him to defend her friend, that does not make her an aggressor. Joff was the only one who wanted blood there on the riverbank, until he started cutting Mycah, at which point Arya wanted Joffs blood, this does not make her an aggressor. Had she told Nymeria to tear Joff limb from limb after he was disarmed, that would have been being the aggressor. Her story, the Truth of what happened does not paint a negative picture of the wolves, and only could have increased the odds that her wolf would not be punished (Important Note: I am not saying that it would have saved Lady, only that it would have done more to help than lying about what she saw)

2. I agree with this statement for the most part, except for the fact that I hold Sansa partially responsible BECAUSE SHE LIED. Its completely possible that had Arya just stood by and let Joff cut Mycah, all the wolves would still be alive, Ned would still be alive etc etc, it would be a boring story. However she is not to 'blame' for the death of Lady because Arya did the "right" thing (I put it into quotes because that statement cannot be proven, she did what I believe was the right thing in defending Mycah, even if that defense caused a cascade of events that ultimately lead to the death of Lady and Mycah). The reason I put some of the blame onto Sansa is because she lied, IMO to protect Joffrey, but whatever the reason is, she did lie.

3. IMO Sansa is guilty of more than just not standing up for her sister, as stated in all my previous posts. Cersei wanted more than just the wolves killed, but she did not get that, its impossible to say that no matter what happened, those wolves were going to die. Such a statement cannot be proven.

[Mindrot]

@Mindrot No we (HH) and myself disagree with your conclusions based on the textual evidence and that your argument deviates dramatically from how Robert is characterized in the series. Please look at the way Robert treats Eddard after Jaime attacks him and also demands that Catlyn have Tyrion released. Look at the way he doesn't bring Mya to court because of Cersei. Look at the Tourney where Cersei goads him into saying he will take part in the melee (only Eddard and Barristan the next day manage to talk some sense into him and that is minus the presence of the Queen. Cersei knows how to press his buttons and get her own way.

I agree that Cersei can make Robert do some of the things she wants, but it does not follow that:

A. Cersei wants wolves dead

B. Robert is a coward and submits to all of Cersei's demands

C. Robert orders wolves killed.

A and B, therefore C is not an accurate argument. There are cases where Robert does not give in to Cersei's demands (Arya being maimed/killed being one of them), or where Robert quite literally tells her to shut up. I understand your argument completely. I agree that Robert acts very cowardly in many of the encounters in the book, especially regarding Cersei, but it is not accurate to say that because Cersei wanted the wolves dead, there was no way that Robert was going to allow them to live.

You and HH are conviced that no matter what happened, Lady was going to be put to death. I disagree with that statement, and believe that had Sansa told the truth, she would have had at the very least a better chance of survival, if only being sent away to Winterfell instead of executed. I have no doubt that the wolves would not have made it to Kings Landing regardless of Sansa's testimony.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I think it's also worth considering that while Sansa couldn't have predicted that Lady would be killed, she has to have realized that her little sister was in A LOT of trouble. Arya could have been seriously punished and she needed someone to defend her side of the story. She should have told the truth to defend her sister, not to defend her direwolf (who she didn't realize was in danger).

[LadyoftheNorth72]

On the subject of Sansa II, specifically her reactions at the Tournament:

A little off topic, but in a way relevant. When reading Sansa II previously, I was a bit baffled by her completr composure at the tourney. I thought, how can she be so calm about this?

So You Think You Can Dance is one of my favorite TV shows. I have been a huge fan since season I and adore Mary Murphy like a goddess. Last Saturday, my daughter managed to get us tickets to watch the live filming of the Dallas auditions. So there I am, in the front row of spectators, so close to Mary and Nigel and Lil C that I could have spoken to them (and at one point actually did get to speak to Mary). The whole time we were sitting there, my daughter and I kept remarking to each other that we could not get it through our heads that we were actually IN THE ROOM where all this was happening; we kept slipping into feeling like we were watching it on TV. "Surreal" is probably the best word I can use to describe it.

When I reread Sansa II for this thread, I completely understood how Sansa felt. She had heard the stories and pictured all this in her own mind for so long, I think it was hard for her to process that it really was all happening right in front of her. The clashes, the blood, even the death ... I think her sense of detachment was caused by a surreal sense that she could not possibly be sitting there, watching all this for real. It would have been difficult for her idealistic mind to accept that someone had truly just died in front of her, so her head made it into just part of the stories. I think the feast afterward was much the same, until Robert spoiled the dream by acting in a way that ran completely counter to het expectations.

IMO, this scene seals the deal that Sansa will go to Cersei and not Robert with her info on the plans to leave the city. From Sansa's viewpoint, this is the second time (at least) that she has seen the king act like a complete ass. All faith in him possibly being like the kings in the stories was out the window at that point.

[headtrip_honey]

IMO, this scene seals the deal that Sansa will go to Cersei and not Robert with her info on the plans to leave the city. From Sansa's viewpoint, this is the second time (at least) that she has seen the king act like a complete ass. All faith in him possibly being like the kings in the stories was out the window at that point.

I have to say, I felt a little bad for Joff in this scene. A very teeny tiny little.

He's been gallant and charming to Sansa all evening, but right after that scene between Robert and Cersei, he changes. He becomes distant. As much as people like to portray him that way, I don't think Joffrey is a cardboard cutout psychopath. He is very much a product of his environment.

[brashcandy]

I have to say, I felt a little bad for Joff in this scene. A very teeny tiny little.

He's been gallant and charming to Sansa all evening, but right after that scene between Robert and Cersei, he changes. He becomes distant. As much as people like to portray him that way, I don't think Joffrey is a cardboard cutout psychopath. He is very much a product of his environment.

Yeah, I noted this as well. I never thought that this reread could make me understand Joff (never mind sympathise) but by gods, it has a little. He's still evil and sadistic and a jerk, but as you said, we're getting to see a little bit of how he developed into this.

[Wolf Maid]

1. Sansa of course knows from a logical standpoint that getting hit with a sword could kill themselves. However, people often tell themselves the worst will never happen and simply don't factor it in. I find entirely believable that an 11 year-old girl simply can't process the idea that the situation could have easily been Joffery killing Arya (and quite possibly Sansa).

I want to point out, I'm pretty sure it never occured to Arya either. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure trying to murder her on the Trident would fit in with the reasons she wanted Joffery dead. But Arya, like Sansa at that point, was rather sheltered and the concept of dying just seemed inconceivable.

2. Actually, if anything, this is evidence of my first point. Her sister ruining her time with her prince? She could see that. Her prince murdering her sister? Not so much.

This just proves my point, which was that she had no regard for her sister’s safety and showed no concern for her during that entire incident. Seeing your normally brave sister show fear and then seeing a person swinging a sword at her, it should click to her that this is a dangerous situation and she should be trying to get her help. But, instead, she chose to whine about her day being ruined. That is, at the very least, extremely selfish. To me, it is disturbing. I don’t understand that type of behavior. She didn’t even have to jump in the fight if she was too afraid, I would have been satisfied with “stop, you’re going to kill her” or even just “leave her alone”, like she did for Joffrey. That would have at least shown that she was somehow thinking about her sister’s safety in this. I don’t understand how that is not instinctual.

Also, the vast majority of the people on Arya’s list are not on there for things they have done to her personally, but for things they have done to others.

Please, don't get me wrong. Sansa should have told the truth. It was wrong not to. However, it doesn't mean she doesn't care about Arya. Nor did she commit an unforgivable betrayal.

To me it was unforgivable. If she were my sister, we would not be on speaking terms. The argument that telling the truth would have done more harm to Arya is bullshit, as I mentioned before, Arya already told them the truth. It was the lie that could have done the most harm. Her lie could have caused serious harm to her sister. If Cersei had her way, she would have been maimed or beaten. Having no one to back up her story made her more vulnerable to a harsher punishment. I don't blame Arya for attacking her at all, her sister's lie put her in danger.

One last thing, (I'm not sure if it was you who brought it up) but has anyone considered that Sansa is telling the truth when she says Mycah attacked Joffery? The same way she is telling the truth about the Hound kissing her.

Humans are quite capable at convincing themselves that something happened that did not (it's actually really, really easy), and Sansa has done this at least once.

Sansa acknowledged that it was a lie in the next book, so I don’t buy that she actually believed that Mycah attacked Joffrey. To me, this just shows a lack of empathy for others. She only acknowledged what Joffrey was after she was being hurt by him. Seeing him slash Mycah’s face and almost kill her sister had no effect on her opinion of him at all.

The way in which this effects Sansa is there seems to be a double standard: she behaves as a Lady should on the journey down the Kingsroad, and yet Arya is allowed to run wild and do things like run into the bogs, treat the Queen's invite as though it was just a potential choice for the day and up until the trident fight, she is just hugged and it is laughed off.

I have seen this mentioned before and I don’t understand why. Ned hugged Arya because she picked him flowers. What would the appropriate response to your nine year old daughter bringing you flowers have been, to throw them back in her face and tell her to act like a lady? Although, I don’t know why a nine year old picking flowers for her father is not ladylike, but because Sansa thought it was the wrong way to act, obviously Ned was failing as a father. Just because Arya isn’t acting the way Sansa wants her to act doesn’t mean Ned was doing anything wrong. She was riding horses and going exploring like she did at home. There was no reason to see anything wrong with that. It was not Sansa's place to tell Arya how to act or what to do. If she thought it was wrong, she should have told her father. If he had no problem with it, then it was none of her business.

[1234567]

@ Lady of the North

You know I never put Robert's behaviour at Darry and his behaviour at the Tourney together before. That's a really good point about Sansa's later actions.

[Candor]

You keep saying that the decision was Robert's, and you're correct. It was. And he was cowardly. And guess what? Ned tried to sway him. "Robert, you cannot mean this. Please, Robert, for the love you bore my sister. Please." But STILL Robert cowed to Cersei.

And would have no matter what Sansa said.

Especially since what Sansa said had absolutely nothing to do with Lady. Even if she had related the story in entirety, it would still have been shown that Nymeria attacked Joff. In defense of Arya, yes, who, by the way, escaped unscathed. And guess what? Nymeria was wild and uncontrollable, much like her owner. Cersei would have argued that any dispute between Arya and Joff might end with Nymeria attacking him.

Even LADY scares grown men when her owner isn't even physically threatened.

Your desire to keep pinning the blame of a beloved pet's death on an eleven year old girl is disgusting.

This.

Robert's personality is not one to make his own decision in this matter. I do not believe the result would have changed.

[brashcandy]

Asking a serious question here: Just where did the Starks locate the stellar services of Her Highness, Septa Mordane? She seems to have been a complete failure with Arya, and to have indulged the worst of Sansa's behaviour. Arya might have always been wild, but with a Septa that was more adept at handling little girls that weren't cookie cutters of what she felt a "Lady" should behave like, she might have been a little more prepared for Southron courts.

[Candor]

1. I posted Roberts final statement to Ned in regards to the wolves, after his plea and he states "A direwolf is a savage beast...." that is the reason he gives Ned for wanting the wolves put down. You call Robert a coward, and act like he does everything Cersei wants him to do because of this, which is very clearly NOT how their relationship works. He is the King, and while he will cave to the demands of Cersei (as he did in this situation) it is NOT a given that he does everything Cersei demands of him. The very nature of their relationship is conflict, not "Cersei demands something, Robert meekly agrees to it". Someone posted that Cersei wanted Arya maimed or killed for harming Joff, did that happen? Did the cowardly Robert give in to that demand? No. In the end his argument is that the wolves are dangerous, and must be put down. An argument that is strengthened by Joffs story of what happened.

3. Someone else replied that Nymeria was not wild andd uncontrollable, which is true. Arya calls Nymeria off after she disarms Joff, and the wolf pads right over to her. It was not like they had to pry her jaws off Joffs arm or something. She protected Arya, when Arya calls her, she comes. That happens at the riverbank and CANNOT be disputed. The wolf was never wild and out of control. Cersei's argument that the wolf would have attack Joff during a dispute no matter what would not have any legs because why are Joff and Arya fighting? Because Mycah and Arya ambushed the crown prince with clubs? That story is ludicrous, and would be even more so with Sansa's testimony destroying it.

4. This is clearly the problem you have with any of my posts. No matter how solid an argument I could make you will not admit to me being right because you think I am trying to pin all the blame on Sansa and you hate me for it. I have stated OVER AND OVER that I am not doing that. I am only showing that she bears PART OF the blame for what happened to Lady, because she lied.

Yeah......... I would love to have seen Robert make more of his own decisions than being cowed over by Cersei. Because whenever she puts her two cents in, she gets what she wants.

Simply, Cersei's a bitch. She wanted a wolf. Her arguments may have been skewed but doesn't change the fact that she was out for vengeance and it was the primary mover in why Lady died.

Calm down. We are all adults here and no one is glossing over your posts for the reason that you state. We are debating opinions, and the thing is, this is a heated chapter to discuss, and people have very strong opinions. Strong opinions are hard to just give up and be all "Yep, you're right :bowdown:" Particularly when that other person thinks they have the right. You yourself are proving what I am saying.

They do not think you are trying only to blame Sansa and they do not hate you for it. Take a breather.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

To bring the thread back on topic, and relevant to the chapter Rapsie discussed, did anyone else feel sorry for Jeyne in this chapter? Not so much over her being inconsolable at the knight's death, but to see the innocent girl she was, talking about marrying Beric, even more prone to hysterics and fantasies than Sansa, and then knowing how awfully she is used by Littlefinger later on. :(

The man was uber-creepy in this chapter. The Hound (looking at you MDIND) was as usual, drunk and threatening. The line is thin, but it's important.

Actually, I'm finding Jeyne to be a rather huge bitch in my reread. Her comments to Arya about Mycah being chopped up so bad his dad didn't recognize him were simply cruel.

I feel bad about her being handed to Ramsey. No one deserves that. But I'm not really warming up to her character either (GoT, she's been through a lot is not the same character in later books).

(1)This just proves my point, which was that she had no regard for her sister’s safety and showed no concern for her during that entire incident. Seeing your normally brave sister show fear and then seeing a person swinging a sword at her, it should click to her that this is a dangerous situation and she should be trying to get her help. But, instead, she chose to whine about her day being ruined. That is, at the very least, extremely selfish. To me, it is disturbing. I don’t understand that type of behavior. She didn’t even have to jump in the fight if she was too afraid, I would have been satisfied with “stop, you’re going to kill her” or even just “leave her alone”, like she did for Joffrey. That would have at least shown that she was somehow thinking about her sister’s safety in this. I don’t understand how that is not instinctual.

Also, the vast majority of the people on Arya’s list are not on there for things they have done to her personally, but for things they have done to others.

(2)To me it was unforgivable. If she were my sister, we would not be on speaking terms. (3)The argument that telling the truth would have done more harm to Arya is bullshit, as I mentioned before, Arya already told them the truth. It was the lie that could have done the most harm. Her lie could have caused serious harm to her sister. If Cersei had her way, she would have been maimed or beaten. Having no one to back up her story made her more vulnerable to a harsher punishment. I don't blame Arya for attacking her at all, her sister's lie put her in danger.

(4)Sansa acknowledged that it was a lie in the next book, so I don’t buy that she actually believed that Mycah attacked Joffrey. (5)To me, this just shows a lack of empathy for others. She only acknowledged what Joffrey was after she was being hurt by him. (6)Seeing him slash Mycah’s face and almost kill her sister had no effect on her opinion of him at all.

1. So, we're taking the same evidence and drawing wildly different conclusions. I think it's safe to say, we're getting nowhere here.

2. May I say I'm glad we're not related? Holding a life long grudge over something a scared 11 year-old does is a bit extreme.

3. Could you do me a favor and only argue things I have said when quoting me.

4. Page numbers please. I actually have no memory of this, so I would like the pages so I can read in context. Honestly, we have such different views, I believe my conclusion may be different from yours.

5. Like condemning a person for life as a horrible person for making a mistake as an 11 year-old.

6. Actually, she did hate him after the incident. She forgave him, but it's not as if she never blamed as you seem to be claiming.