From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[Candor]

I guess what I am asking is do you think that in this particular situation was Arya the aggressor? I understand your statement about provocation, however it seems to me that Joff was not harming Mycah in an attempt to provoke Arya, but to satisfy his own sadistic desires. I would argue that throughout the riverbank encounter it was Joff who was the aggressor, and only after he is disarmed does he cease to be.

The point is yes, he was not trying to provoke Arya. But inevitably, Arya was going to feel provoked... to defend her friend.

[1234567]

She should not have lied to protect Joff who was very clearly at fault for the whole situation.

Sansa lied to protect the wrong party (IMO) in the situation, that was not a valid reason.

Sansa didn't lie to protect Joff. If she lied to protect Joff then she would have said his version was correct. She lied so she didn't have to side with either of them. It was then one child's word against another. Sansa didn't want to be involved either way.

Also Joff was responsible for starting the fight, but Arya bears some responsibility for going completely overboard in a violent assault. She attacks Sansa in front of the entire assembled audience by knocking her to the ground and then starting to beat her. That is also not an appropriate response, but as I said, both girls were scared and their behaviour reflects this.

It's important to note that while Sansa remains stoic in public, and this front is something she maintains during her entire time at King's Landing, she does grieve in private. She cries her eyes out over Lady but I don't recall any incident where she's actually crying about anything in front of other people. The only time she expresses overwhelming emotion in public is during Ned's execution IIRC. It's just cool to see how that's one of her defining characteristics so early on, even before she adopts it as a defense mechanism.

:agree: And in previous reads, I hadn't noticed that that characteristic was there so early in her character development.

I have to agree that I do not like Jeyne's character at all, and I never did. She just always seemed kind of like a mean girl, from the very beginning. In the early scene at Winterfell (Arya POV) when they're sewing with Myrcella, Jeyne laughs at and is openly mocking of Arya, while Sansa remains silent and considerate. Arya resents Sansa for that thinking it's just fake courtly behavior, but no matter what her motivations, Sansa never demonstrates the kind of pettiness that shows through in Jeyne sometimes. Of course I still feel terrible about what she had to go through later.

Indeed Jeyne reminds me of the type of friend that my mother would have despaired of as a bad influence. Jeyne is also much more immature than Sansa. Also I think Jeyne's mocking of Sansa also highlights how different the North was to the South. I can't imagine any Southron House who would let a steward's daughter openly mock the daughter of a high lord.

Yeah, it seems all the kids were exposed to both the seven and the Old Gods and allowed to choose their own favorites. It's interesting how the allegiance seems to be 50/50 for everyone but Jon (who has nothing to do with Cat or the Seven), but then after family Stark disintegrates, the kids on their own grow closer to the Old Gods. We see this in everyone, including Sansa (just in a more subtle way). For her it's been more about growing distant from, and then losing her Septa. Sansa starts off like a mini Cat, but later she is attracted to the KL godswood and in Feast, the Eyrie godswood, and starts hearing what she imagines is the ghost of a wolf in the wind, etc etc

Her experiences with the Seven as we shall later see are not good. It may be interesting to note her religious development and preferences as her arc develops.

[brashcandy]

Ok, it seems all of us have strong opinions with regard to Sansa's actions concerning the Mycah incident, but it has reached the stage where we're just repeating points ad nauseam, and remaining in our own corners. Perfectly fine, agree to disagree. I would like to think though that we're all interested in discussing Sansa's development, which is not restricted to this one chapter.

[1234567]

I would never want a sister like Sansa, thank god mine are not like that. Any sister who would continue to support and lie for a guy who almost killed me, about the fact that he almost killed me, would not be on speaking terms with me.

Wolfmaid, I am glad I am not your sister. The world is not so black and white and if you read the scene in question she doesn't lie for Joff, she lies because she is scared and doesn't want to get involved. She doesn't choose a side. She chooses not to side with either of them. A cowardly action, but not an evil one. Also Joff and Arya were fighting each other. Arya had not a scratch, Joff had a bloody head and was bitten badly by Nymeria. Arya then starts threatening him with the sword until Sansa gets her to stop. As has been said Arya going to Mycah's defense was the right thing to do, but she went about it in completely the wrong way, and an extremely violent way.

Also if I had a child who has swung a stick with both hands and hit someone on the back of their head and proceed to hit them again, I would be worried about their future tendencies. Arya's fight with Joff is not all self defense. Also there is no way Sansa could know Joff planned to kill Arya. We don't know that.

Also if you think Sansa was so terrible for continuing to love Joff (the boy she one day had to marry), what does that say about Ned: he was still prepared to marry his daughter to Joff.

Edit: Sorry Brashcandy. You're right.

[brashcandy]

Also if you think Sansa was so terrible for continuing to love Joff (the boy she one day had to marry), what does that say about Ned: he was still prepared to marry his daughter to Joff.

Good point, indeed the only thing that changes that is when he learns Joff is a bastard. I don't mean to suggest that Ned is somehow shallow, but as you said, as readers we might know that Joff is an evil turd, but the incident with Mycah was not terrible enough to break off the engagement. The way it went down, it looked as though both Arya and Joff were at fault, and strictly speaking, they both were. Perhaps Ned should have sent the girls back home for the time period, but alas!

Anyways, that's all I'm saying on that for the time being.

Rapsie, was Arya at the tourney melees with Sansa, or had she already started her "dancing"? I just found it odd that she isn't mentioned or was she with Ned instead?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

This is false, however. While she does excuse Joffrey, she says:

<the queen had done it, she was the one to hate, her and Arya>

I browsed through Sansa's chapters yesterday, and there's no evidence to show that she still thought Cersei was "good". She admires Cersei's grace and composure, but says nothing about her "goodness". She goes to her with Ned's plans because she's scared of the loud, drunk King, not because she *likes* Cersei. And yes, Cersei is then sweet to her and manipulates her, and Sansa naively believes that Cersei will be honorable, but clearly that fleeting was hope was crushed.

Sansa is definitely naive, and in the first book does try to jam the messy, complex world into the archetypes of the songs and stories she'd been taught, but I think this aspect of her is overblown.

No, Sansa sours on neither Joffrey nor the queen after this incident. She feels a temporary discomfort with them that passes quickly. Much much later, after Ned has been taken prisoner and the entire Stark retinue at KL killed, and Sansa herself has spent time crying in her room, she goes to visit Cersei. This is what Sansa thinks, even though she is suffering from anxiety and a gut feeling that she's in a dangerous position.

"Sansa had hoped Joffrey might be with her [Cersei]. Her prince was not there..."

"Cersei smiled to see her and Sansa thought it was the sweetest and saddest smile she had ever seen."

Cersei: "I do hope you know how much Joffrey and I love you"

Sansa: " 'You do?,' Sansa said breathless. Littlefinger was forgotten. Her Prince loved her. Nothing else mattered.

"The queen looked at her, troubled, and yet Sansa could see kindness in her clear green eyes"

Once again, Sansa rationalizes her observations to fit her preconceived notions, through the chapter we're discussing right now, right up until Ned's death when her worldview is shattered. Yeah, when her wolf is killed, she mometarily acknowledges to herself that the Queen is responsible but she puts those instincts aside because they just don't fit her notion of what the Queen should be.

I don't think Sansa's initial naivete and innocence are overblown at all. Are you trying to say that she's essentially unchanged from GoT to now? If that were actually true she would be the most static character in the entire series. I think she's grown and changed quite a bit, and her initial innocence and naivete, to the point of continuing to trust Cersei, are important in defining those later changes.

ETA: I agree with comments above about Ned's bad judgment of Joffrey. I think Ned was really blind to the viciousness in the Lannisters, and didn't even look at Joffrey, as a person, the betrothed of his daughter, as a factor in whether that would make a good marriage. Short sightedness on his part.

[1234567]

@ Brashcandy

There is no mention of her on the first day of the Tourney. On the second day Arya is brought to the evening feast by Jory. Ned notes that Sansa and Arya are speaking pleasantly to each other. Sansa says Arya should have come to the Tournament because it was magnificent and Arya shows off her dancing bruises.

Possibly interesting Sidenote: Sansa then goes off to listen to the Dance of the Dragons.

[brashcandy]

I don't think Sansa's initial naivete and innocence are overblown at all. Are you trying to say that she's essentially unchanged from GoT to now? If that were actually true she would be the most static character in the entire series. I think she's grown and changed quite a bit, and her initial innocence and naivete, to the point of continuing to trust Cersei, are important in defining those later changes

I agree, but I think HH meant overblown in the sense that they might be overjudged. Either way, we see a gradual awakening at the end of each chapter IMO. Sansa has been "sleeping" for so long that waking.her is difficult. Lady's death is the first jolt, then the Hound's story is another. BTW, I loved the Hound calling her out on her behaviour :) He wasn't polite about it, and he scared her half to death, but I think it was a necessary corrective from what the good ole Septa had been teaching her. Mind you, this isn't to say that Sansa's courtesy isn't a valuable thing - but she needed to realise that it couldn't work with everyone, and that people can oftentimes see through it.

@ Brashcandy

There is no mention of her on the first day of the Tourney. On the second day Arya is brought to the evening feast by Jory. Ned notes that Sansa and Arya are speaking pleasantly to each other. Sansa says Arya should have come to the Tournament because it was magnificent and Arya shows off her dancing bruises.

Possibly interesting Sidenote: Sansa then goes off to listen to the Dance of the Dragons.

Very interesting :)

[1234567]

No, Sansa sours on neither Joffrey nor the queen after this incident. She feels a temporary discomfort with them that passes quickly.Once again, Sansa rationalizes her observations to fit her preconceived notions, through the chapter we're discussing right now, right up until Ned's death when her worldview is shattered.

Indeed. She hates Joff for about two weeks, while the Starks travel on their own to KL, then convinces herself that Joff isn't to blame. It's the Queen and Arya. I think Voodoo Queen and your analysis that she is a rationalist is very apt. As we have seen her so far, she reorders things to fit her world view: which unfortunately is a fairytale one.

I don't think Sansa's initial naivete and innocence are overblown at all.

:agree: Her innocence and her belief that life is a song are made very apparent in this last chapter. Her assumption everyone is smiling at her and her excitement over the Red Rose from Loras are very transparent game playing to us, but to her it is all heart felt and sincere. All she knows is a loving family environment, songs and stories, and now she is at a tourney where everyone is acting like they are straight out of a song or story. She has no reason to doubt their intentions. Her innocence and naivety are almost painful, because these same people who are smiling at her will be laughing at her being stripped and beaten within a few months.

The only thing that challenges that is her talk with Sandor, where we see that she is also very empathetic. Also it is the first time she makes a distinction between someone (Ser Gregor) being a Knight and a True Knight. A slight shift in her perspective, but still one that closely adheres to her structured belief system.

[bgona]

Sorry but I think that people missjudge Sansa "not remembering". It´s a political movement. That says a lot of her. I don´t believe telling the truth will change Robert decision of killing Lady. For him was only a "dawn direwolf" and not a person.

Mycah won´t still alive neither.

Arya had a terrible temper. Joff shows in his actions how is going to be: a lot of bla, bla, bla, but no real love ni compasion, and a lot of meaness (the look after his mother when she ask for Lady´s live).

I think Nerd treat Arya in the way she needs by giving her "dancing teacher".

I had an older sister as Sansa in perfection of all things that she made. And I was more like Arya (fighting lost causes, speaking with different people, even beating the son of my father´s boss). But I had in common with Sansa that I saw live in as a pink coloured, always beleiving that people is good (I still believe it).

[Raksha the Demon]

Are we meant to compare and contrast Sansa's lack of emotion for the knight's death in this chapter to the overwhelming empathy she feels for Sandor at the end of it? Thoughts, opinions, silence? :)

I think Sansa does feel some regret for the knight's death, she does not just totally dismiss him from her thoughts without any feeling: The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

Sansa is much more adult and rational here than she was just a few weeks ago on the Kingsroad. She's in public, and she has been raised to comport herself with dignity in public; and part of being a lady is to take the deaths that occur in a tournament in stride (and other unpleasant things). I think this is far easier for Sansa than watching her sister and her fantasy prince fighting each other; because tournaments, and the deaths that often occur in them, are part of the world that Sansa has accepted. But Sansa did think of the young knight with regret; she was not indifferent to his loss. She didn't know him or whatever family he left behind; so she had a stronger reaction to the Hound, whose pain past and present was right in front of her eyes, on his face, in his scars, in his voice. The Hound's pain was raw and real and close to Sansa; and also did not conflict with her still treasured illusion of her beloved fantasy prince Joffrey (as Arya's fear and peril had conflicted with Sansa's illusions about Joffrey).

I'd like to make a quick shout-out to the brief moments in the TV series when Littlefinger first meets Sansa: For perhaps a second or two, Littlefinger drops his mask of cynicism as he faces Sansa, and looks almost enchanted, enraptured, and far more innocent than he does normally. I believed in that moment, as I think book-Littlefinger believed, that he had found a new young version of Catelyn, Cat as she was when Petyr loved her (and I firmly believe that Littlefinger thinks he felt love for Cat). And there's also the bit where TV-Littlefinger places his hand on Sansa's shoulder; and Ned gives him one very quick, stern look, and the hand is withdrawn - wonderful!

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I agree, but I think HH meant overblown in the sense that they might be overjudged.

That is true, she is overjudged. I think there's often a tendency to take her little kid behavior at the beginning and look at all of her actions in the entire series through that lens, which isn't fair or accurate. It's like not acknowledging that Tyrion is getting really dark and a little scary just because he was pretty awesome in books 1-2.

The only thing that challenges that is her talk with Sandor, where we see that she is also very empathetic. Also it is the first time she makes a distinction between someone (Ser Gregor) being a Knight and a True Knight. A slight shift in her perspective, but still one that closely adheres to her structured belief system.

I appreciate how this thread has highlighted the importance of Sandor in Sansa's development. I didn't really get what all the Sandor obsession was about and thought he only became important in Sansa's storyline after the bloody cloak and imagined kiss incident. It's become clear that he does give her harsh but much needed glimpses into reality early on, and really imprints himself onto her subconscious because of this. He is also a living demonstration of how knighthood does not necessarily confer honor, and honor can be found outside of knighthood, and outside of anything you'd usually expect.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I'd like to make a quick shout-out to the brief moments in the TV series when Littlefinger first meets Sansa: For perhaps a second or two, Littlefinger drops his mask of cynicism as he faces Sansa, and looks almost enchanted, enraptured, and far more innocent than he does normally. I believed in that moment, as I think book-Littlefinger believed, that he had found a new young version of Catelyn, Cat as she was when Petyr loved her (and I firmly believe that Littlefinger thinks he felt love for Cat). And there's also the bit where TV-Littlefinger places his hand on Sansa's shoulder; and Ned gives him one very quick, stern look, and the hand is withdrawn - wonderful!

Ha! I need to go back and watch that again.

[bgona]

One important thing of that second Sansa POV is that she almost could feel physically the look of The Hound.

It is the first and the only time that she feels that. Not from Joffrey. From The Hound that is drunked and excited.

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I must say that I love the difference that she makes of Knights and True Knights. This plus the little bird will be their (Sansa and Sandor) privates "jokes".

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The way LF acts here and how touches her hair makes me chill. I hate him from that very moment!

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I agree about the Septa Mordane. She wasn´t a good influence to Sansa in order to catalogue people by the way the look like, not by how they were and how they beheave in live.

[brashcandy]

Indeed. She hates Joff for about two weeks, while the Starks travel on their own to KL, then convinces herself that Joff isn't to blame. It's the Queen and Arya. I think Voodoo Queen and your analysis that she is a rationalist is very apt. As we have seen her so far, she reorders things to fit her world view: which unfortunately is a fairytale one.

:agree: Her innocence and her belief that life is a song are made very apparent in this last chapter. Her assumption everyone is smiling at her and her excitement over the Red Rose from Loras are very transparent game playing to us, but to her it is all heart felt and sincere. All she knows is a loving family environment, songs and stories, and now she is at a tourney where everyone is acting like they are straight out of a song or story. She has no reason to doubt their intentions. Her innocence and naivety are almost painful, because these same people who are smiling at her will be laughing at her being stripped and beaten within a few months.

The only thing that challenges that is her talk with Sandor, where we see that she is also very empathetic. Also it is the first time she makes a distinction between someone (Ser Gregor) being a Knight and a True Knight. A slight shift in her perspective, but still one that closely adheres to her structured belief system.

Excellent points here. I almost got the sense at the end that she was slightly happy to learn what had happened to the Hound, because she was able to fit it into her worldview as you say. And we know what Sandor thinks of calling Gregor "no true knight." What she doesn't realise yet is that the concept of true knights doesn't really exist, but it's still one of my most favourite Sansa lines, and really highlighted her incredible empathy and sweet innocence.

ETA: I think another person would have buckled under the weight of keeping this secret, not to mention the death threat that went along with it, and it again highlights that inner strength that we're seeing in these early chapters. She doesn't become distraught and inconsolable as I imagine Jeyne would - and they both had similar upbringings - instead she offers comforts and shows a good deal of maturity and trustworthiness.

[bgona]

I think Sansa does feel some regret for the knight's death, she does not just totally dismiss him from her thoughts without any feeling: The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

Sansa is much more adult and rational here than she was just a few weeks ago on the Kingsroad. She's in public, and she has been raised to comport herself with dignity in public; and part of being a lady is to take the deaths that occur in a tournament in stride (and other unpleasant things). I think this is far easier for Sansa than watching her sister and her fantasy prince fighting each other; because tournaments, and the deaths that often occur in them, are part of the world that Sansa has accepted. But Sansa did think of the young knight with regret; she was not indifferent to his loss. She didn't know him or whatever family he left behind; so she had a stronger reaction to the Hound, whose pain past and present was right in front of her eyes, on his face, in his scars, in his voice. The Hound's pain was raw and real and close to Sansa; and also did not conflict with her still treasured illusion of her beloved fantasy prince Joffrey (as Arya's fear and peril had conflicted with Sansa's illusions about Joffrey).

:agree:

[headtrip_honey]

No, Sansa sours on neither Joffrey nor the queen after this incident. She feels a temporary discomfort with them that passes quickly. Much much later, after Ned has been taken prisoner and the entire Stark retinue at KL killed, and Sansa herself has spent time crying in her room, she goes to visit Cersei. This is what Sansa thinks, even though she is suffering from anxiety and a gut feeling that she's in a dangerous position.

"Sansa had hoped Joffrey might be with her [Cersei]. Her prince was not there..."

"Cersei smiled to see her and Sansa thought it was the sweetest and saddest smile she had ever seen."

Cersei: "I do hope you know how much Joffrey and I love you"

Sansa: " 'You do?,' Sansa said breathless. Littlefinger was forgotten. Her Prince loved her. Nothing else mattered.

"The queen looked at her, troubled, and yet Sansa could see kindness in her clear green eyes"

I mentioned this in my post - I said that Cersei manipulated her and made Sansa think she was kind, but that that fleeting hope was crushed. I thought my implication was obvious, but I meant Ned's death crushed any possible trust she may have been rebuilding for Cersei. I could not find any textual evidence between the Lady incident and Sansa going to Cersei (because she was scared of the King, Cersei was NOT her first choice, ideally) that Sansa had any truly positive feelings for Cersei. Now, granted, she and Cersei just don't really interact. Sansa observes her behavior, but that's about it. So I find it plausible that while she disliked Cersei after Lady, when she went to her with Ned's plans (because the Queen was less intimidating than the King...and really, can you blame her?), Cersei did what Cersei does - manipiulate. Sansa was naive, and young, and easy to sway. So Sansa thinks, "Oh, maybe she IS good." And then you get the passage you quoted.

But again, there's little textual evidence either way. It's also possible that Sansa mentally forgave Cersei, as she apparently did Arya, because Sansa is a nice person.

(I am not saying that she's right...if it were me, I would have demanded to return to Winterfell after Lady's death. I could never trust or like a person involved in my pet's death. But I'm more vengeful than Sansa.)

I don't think Sansa's initial naivete and innocence are overblown at all. Are you trying to say that she's essentially unchanged from GoT to now? If that were actually true she would be the most static character in the entire series. I think she's grown and changed quite a bit, and her initial innocence and naivete, to the point of continuing to trust Cersei, are important in defining those later changes.

ETA: I agree with comments above about Ned's bad judgment of Joffrey. I think Ned was really blind to the viciousness in the Lannisters, and didn't even look at Joffrey, as a person, the betrothed of his daughter, as a factor in whether that would make a good marriage. Short sightedness on his part.

I agree, but I think HH meant overblown in the sense that they might be overjudged. Either way, we see a gradual awakening at the end of each chapter IMO. Sansa has been "sleeping" for so long that waking.her is difficult. Lady's death is the first jolt, then the Hound's story is another. BTW, I loved the Hound calling her out on her behaviour :) He wasn't polite about it, and he scared her half to death, but I think it was a necessary corrective from what the good ole Septa had been teaching her. Mind you, this isn't to say that Sansa's courtesy isn't a valuable thing - but she needed to realise that it couldn't work with everyone, and that people can oftentimes see through it.

That is true, she is overjudged. I think there's often a tendency to take her little kid behavior at the beginning and look at all of her actions in the entire series through that lens, which isn't fair or accurate. It's like not acknowledging that Tyrion is getting really dark and a little scary just because he was pretty awesome in books 1-2.

Brash got it. That's what I meant. I've seen so many quotes all over this board that basically claim that Sansa only thinks about songs and stories and is so stupid, when in actuality her story is about the destruction of that naive belief. And I was getting a little sick of it. Additionally, I think not every action of hers needs to be judged in the light of songs and stories.

[1234567]

On a sidenote about Septa Mordane: In the TV series she as portrayed as long suffering and sweet, however in the comic she comes across as a right harridan.

[brashcandy]

On a sidenote about Septa Mordane: In the TV series she as portrayed as long suffering and sweet, however in the comic she comes across as a right harridan.

That sounds about right :lol:

[Candor]

Excellent points here. I almost got the sense at the end that she was slightly happy to learn what had happened to the Hound, because she was able to fit it into her worldview as you say. And we know what Sandor thinks of calling Gregor "no true knight." What she doesn't realise yet is that the concept of true knights doesn't really exist, but it's still one of my most favourite Sansa lines, and really highlighted her incredible empathy and sweet innocence.

I agree. This line for me is always incredibly striking when I read it. I want to smile and cry at once.

I think Sansa does feel some regret for the knight's death, she does not just totally dismiss him from her thoughts without any feeling: The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

Sansa is much more adult and rational here than she was just a few weeks ago on the Kingsroad. She's in public, and she has been raised to comport herself with dignity in public; and part of being a lady is to take the deaths that occur in a tournament in stride (and other unpleasant things). I think this is far easier for Sansa than watching her sister and her fantasy prince fighting each other; because tournaments, and the deaths that often occur in them, are part of the world that Sansa has accepted. But Sansa did think of the young knight with regret; she was not indifferent to his loss. She didn't know him or whatever family he left behind; so she had a stronger reaction to the Hound, whose pain past and present was right in front of her eyes, on his face, in his scars, in his voice. The Hound's pain was raw and real and close to Sansa; and also did not conflict with her still treasured illusion of her beloved fantasy prince Joffrey (as Arya's fear and peril had conflicted with Sansa's illusions about Joffrey).

I'd like to make a quick shout-out to the brief moments in the TV series when Littlefinger first meets Sansa: For perhaps a second or two, Littlefinger drops his mask of cynicism as he faces Sansa, and looks almost enchanted, enraptured, and far more innocent than he does normally. I believed in that moment, as I think book-Littlefinger believed, that he had found a new young version of Catelyn, Cat as she was when Petyr loved her (and I firmly believe that Littlefinger thinks he felt love for Cat). And there's also the bit where TV-Littlefinger places his hand on Sansa's shoulder; and Ned gives him one very quick, stern look, and the hand is withdrawn - wonderful!

I shall also have to rewatch this moment, but I do remember noting that bit as the beginning of the creeper :lol:

Also I came across for me an interesting line from Cat to parallel her daughter's behavior. This is from when she is going to parley with Renly in ACOK:

i

I want to weep, she thought. I want to be comforted. I'm so tired of being strong. I want to be foolish and frightened for once. Just for a small while, that's all ... a day ... an hour...