From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[Caro99]

regarding the "get her a wolf, she'll be happier for it", i think it's very sad lady had to die, but IMHO it only means that the dog that will replace lady is sandor. as i said before in another thread, sandor walks by ned moments after lady leaves this world...

i do think that the septa is a snobby old woman but i liked her in a way. every time she had a fight with arya i was laughing. still, the second day of the tourney states that the septa had a headache and couldn't acompany sansa, so i don't think he ever learned that she had gotten drunk and the hound had escorted sansa. if he had he would have mentioned it in his chapter which follows the one of sansa. and since sansa was probably a little bewildered about what had happened the previous day i don't think she told ned about the septa getting drunk since he might have asked her questions leading to probably revealing what she had learned of the hound's secret. maybe jory escorted the septa back to the red keep and she was so ashamed she made him promise him that he wouldn't tell anyone if she promised not to do it again. and then she might have beg her pardons to sansa and that was the end of it.

anyways, about the tourney, i like how the day started out just perfect for her and she felt as if she had stepped into a song only to have it end with the Hound trying to bring her back to reality. it sort of foreshadows her upcoming chapters where instead of the beautiful tourney, the atmosphere of living at court seemed at first perfect, but thanks to either joff, arya, the queen, ned & even robert (he was the one who brought the tourney's feast to an abrupt halt), reality hit sansa and made her see that in the end (as LF says) life is not a song. and the hound just keeps on trying to made her give up her foolish dreams any time he can to spare her a little of the pain that sansa must have felt when she realized that KL wasn't that magical...

i don't know if i'm making any sense, but there it is... :)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

These are fictional characters. I don't think it is unreasonable to attribute their actions to the type of person they will become. Especially if they have shown a pattern of these types of actions over the course of the series. Also, I never said she was a horrible person, just person who shows a lack of empathy for others.

Thank you. Now, I know where you are coming from.

Here, this may help you understand why I consider Sansa's actions forgivable.

http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/glossary/g/dynamic.htm

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dynamic%20character

[Caro99]

I would never want a sister like Sansa, thank god mine are not like that.

i would like to be like sansa. you mentioned a bad thing she did, but in the end she is a really nice, compassionate, caring, loyal, and good girl. i admire those qualities myself.

in her first chapter she might have showed a lack of emphaty but by the second one when she tries to comfort the hound- and as the books follow she shows compassion for others- by the end of ACOK she even helps a lannister who had been nasty to her before.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

IMO there are a number of upcoming incidents that conclusively demonstrate Sansa's compassionate and caring nature, but we will get to those later.

This incident between Sandor and Sansa is when he began to endear himself to me. However harsh his wording, I believe he is genuinely trying to help Sansa in his own way. He sees a girl who is quite liable to get chewed up and spit out by court life, and is trying to jar her a bit and get her to recognize realities that could quite literally save her life.

The fascinating thing to me about the Sandor/Sansa relationship is the almost yin/yang quality of it. On the one side, you have the person who was introduced to the harsh cruelties of life almost from birth, and who has lived utterly immersed in them ever since. I believe Sandor had become convinced that true goodness and purity were utter fairytales, and that all people were crap under whatever exterior they chose to put on. Sansa is a glimmer of hope that perhaps all people are not like that; maybe there really are some humans left who actually have humanity. That is why I see his arc as beginning to change and slowly admit to the possibility of a lighter side of life. Whether he has "feelings" for Sansa herself is still somewhat of an open question for me, but I believe he is inexorably drawn to what she represents to him ...the possibility that life does not all have to be hopelessly dark and hateful.

On the other side, you have someone who has been raised in something resembling a candy castle (mentally) and has no awareness that bad guys are not only real, but sometimes win. It would be lovely if it were possible to live one's entire life believing that everything is a fairytale, but it is not, and that goes exponentially for the particular world Sansa has to survive in. While she is a glimpse of hope to Sandor, he is her first and primary (constructive) teacher about what the world really is, and how to survive it.

For me, these lessons that San/San teach each other are far more fascinating than the question of whether he wants into her bloomers, or whether she wants him there. Sansa arguably would never have survived if it had not been for Sandor's protection and harsh lessons. And Sandor might well have given up and died (or done something suicidally stupid) if he had not had the influence of a truly good person to start altering his views.

[Solaris]

regarding the "get her a wolf, she'll be happier for it", i think it's very sad lady had to die, but IMHO it only means that the dog that will replace lady is sandor. as i said before in another thread, sandor walks by ned moments after lady leaves this world...

i do think that the septa is a snobby old woman but i liked her in a way. every time she had a fight with arya i was laughing. still, the second day of the tourney states that the septa had a headache and couldn't acompany sansa, so i don't think he ever learned that she had gotten drunk and the hound had escorted sansa. if he had he would have mentioned it in his chapter which follows the one of sansa. and since sansa was probably a little bewildered about what had happened the previous day i don't think she told ned about the septa getting drunk since he might have asked her questions leading to probably revealing what she had learned of the hound's secret. maybe jory escorted the septa back to the red keep and she was so ashamed she made him promise him that he wouldn't tell anyone if she promised not to do it again. and then she might have beg her pardons to sansa and that was the end of it.

I remember exactly what I did the first time I read this in the book "SEPTA DID WHAT?" I just could not believe that Septa Mordane got smashed and passed out like that when she was chaperoning Sansa, to me that was so out of character she is afterall the absolute epitome of propriety. I always wondered if she had her drink either spiked by LF or one of his minions so he could get to Sansa later... or Joff because he is a nasty little creature. Get her alone and humilate her but then his mother & robert had a moment and he got distracted?

Sansa states in her recollection that she was having such a good time that she dumped courtesy and ignored Septa Mordane seated on her left for the rest of the night. We don't know what happened with her, I am probably reading into it too much but I just cannot believe that Septa Mordane of all people would forget herself in a place of high honor at the table with royals. It makes not sense to me.

anyways, about the tourney, i like how the day started out just perfect for her and she felt as if she had stepped into a song only to have it end with the Hound trying to bring her back to reality. it sort of foreshadows her upcoming chapters where instead of the beautiful tourney, the atmosphere of living at court seemed at first perfect, but thanks to either joff, arya, the queen, ned & even robert (he was the one who brought the tourney's feast to an abrupt halt), reality hit sansa and made her see that in the end (as LF says) life is not a song. and the hound just keeps on trying to made her give up her foolish dreams any time he can to spare her a little of the pain that sansa must have felt when she realized that KL wasn't that magical...

i don't know if i'm making any sense, but there it is... :)

The Hound taking a step off into the deep end here again makes me laugh, he launches into this tirade because she is driving him nuts with how she talks and acts and he says to her "i saw you looking all the way down the kingsroad" he gets so freaking angry that she just wont come out and say "what happened to your face dude?" - he gets so pissed with her not just being straight with him about things, he is repeatedly telling her, you don't have to pretend to be a lady with me, I am the Hound, I am not a ser, not a Lord. JUST TALK STRAIGHT!

side note - I wonder too whether the scene where Renly is unhorsed by the hound and snaps of an antler off his helm and Renly hands it to the hound which Sandor then tosses into the crowd as a kind of shadowing of the antler that killed the direwolf mother but with a twist because of his refusal to accept it (the cause of death of the direwolf) is as kind of shadowing of his support for Stark? .... i again, am probably looking at that too hard.

[Raksha the Demon]

One important thing of that second Sansa POV is that she almost could feel physically the look of The Hound.

It is the first and the only time that she feels that. Not from Joffrey. From The Hound that is drunked and excited.

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I must say that I love the difference that she makes of Knights and True Knights. This plus the little bird will be their (Sansa and Sandor) privates "jokes".

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The way LF acts here and how touches her hair makes me chill. I hate him from that very moment!

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I agree about the Septa Mordane. She wasn´t a good influence to Sansa in order to catalogue people by the way the look like, not by how they were and how they beheave in live.

There's a hint in a much later chapter (in ASOS) that Septa Mordane might have been trying to inject a little reality into Sansa's Fantasyland outlook on her future. During her wedding night, when the frightened Sansa is facing naked Tyrion and the imminent consummation of their forced marriage, she remembers that Septa Mordane had told her that every man's body has some part that is beautiful. It sounds like the Septa had anticipated that Sansa might not get the pretty young knight of her dreams as a bridegroom and was trying to give her a bit of practical guidance (well, as practical as one could get with a prepubescent and pre-King's Landing Sansa) to help her during a time in Sansa's life that would not necessarily be all sunshine and roses. Unfortunately, the Septa had not anticipated Tyrion as a husband for Sansa; but I don't blame her for that; it would not have been on anyone's radar while Ned and Catelyn were alive.

I think a huge part of the Hound's appeal for Sansa is that he is the most honest person she has met outside of Winterfell. The Hound does not pretend to be someone other than he is, at least not consciously. He does not smile and say the expected thing and then turn on her. He comes across as angry and tormented and rough; and that's the way he is most of the time; but he does speak the truth, at least as he sees it, to Sansa. In the months and years to come, I think part of Sansa clings to her memory of the Hound as a kind of emotional lifeline; in a similar way to her clinging (after the end of AGOT) to the memory of her family and Winterfell, and draws strength from it.

[Raksha the Demon]

IMO there are a number of upcoming incidents that conclusively demonstrate Sansa's compassionate and caring nature, but we will get to those later.

This incident between Sandor and Sansa is when he began to endear himself to me. However harsh his wording, I believe he is genuinely trying to help Sansa in his own way. He sees a girl who is quite liable to get chewed up and spit out by court life, and is trying to jar her a bit and get her to recognize realities that could quite literally save her life.

The fascinating thing to me about the Sandor/Sansa relationship is the almost yin/yang quality of it. On the one side, you have the person who was introduced to the harsh cruelties of life almost from birth, and who has lived utterly immersed in them ever since. I believe Sandor had become convinced that true goodness and purity were utter fairytales, and that all people were crap under whatever exterior they chose to put on. Sansa is a glimmer of hope that perhaps all people are not like that; maybe there really are some humans left who actually have humanity. That is why I see his arc as beginning to change and slowly admit to the possibility of a lighter side of life. Whether he has "feelings" for Sansa herself is still somewhat of an open question for me, but I believe he is inexorably drawn to what she represents to him ...the possibility that life does not all have to be hopelessly dark and hateful.

On the other side, you have someone who has been raised in something resembling a candy castle (mentally) and has no awareness that bad guys are not only real, but sometimes win. It would be lovely if it were possible to live one's entire life believing that everything is a fairytale, but it is not, and that goes exponentially for the particular world Sansa has to survive in. While she is a glimpse of hope to Sandor, he is her first and primary (constructive) teacher about what the world really is, and how to survive it.

For me, these lessons that San/San teach each other are far more fascinating than the question of whether he wants into her bloomers, or whether she wants him there. Sansa arguably would never have survived if it had not been for Sandor's protection and harsh lessons. And Sandor might well have given up and died (or done something suicidally stupid) if he had not had the influence of a truly good person to start altering his views.

I also wonder whether Sansa reminds Sandor of his own sister, who may have been murdered by their brother; and he sees through her another innocent who is going to be harmed by the essential darkness of real life. Because, for Sandor, life is not a song, life is a dark and vicious journey that one cannot face unarmed. And Sansa is not only innocent, she has no armor at all. (of course, a recurring theme for Sansa is that Courtesy Is A Lady's Armor, but the Hound knows that Courtesy is no match for axes, swords, and sadistic big brothers and princes; she's going to need more)

[brashcandy]

I remember exactly what I did the first time I read this in the book "SEPTA DID WHAT?" I just could not believe that Septa Mordane got smashed and passed out like that when she was chaperoning Sansa, to me that was so out of character she is afterall the absolute epitome of propriety. I always wondered if she had her drink either spiked by LF or one of his minions so he could get to Sansa later... or Joff because he is a nasty little creature. Get her alone and humilate her but then his mother & robert had a moment and he got distracted?

Sansa states in her recollection that she was having such a good time that she dumped courtesy and ignored Septa Mordane seated on her left for the rest of the night. We don't know what happened with her, I am probably reading into it too much but I just cannot believe that Septa Mordane of all people would forget herself in a place of high honor at the table with royals. It makes not sense to me.

Oh it made perfect sense to me. It's all about the irony of this supposedly morally upright and dignified woman allowing herself to behave like any other overwhelmed commoner at a feast. That a good part of her time is spent chastising Arya on not being ladylike enough, makes it even more ridiculous. All of these little things just keep highlighting how much the Starks were out of place in this environment. Septa Mordane getting drunk over summerwine and neglecting her duties, Jory's shabby looking outfit at the tourney (not that I condone the Septa mocking him) etc; they were simply not prepared for this kind of courtly life, and the one who most thinks she is, who has waited all her life to finally be in this kind of atmosphere, learns some very unpleasant truths about the lords and ladies who dominate it.

[Solaris]

Oh it made perfect sense to me. It's all about the irony of this supposedly morally upright and dignified woman allowing herself to behave like any other overwhelmed commoner at a feast. That a good part of her time is spent chastising Arya on not being ladylike enough, makes it even more ridiculous. All of these little things just keep highlighting how much the Starks were out of place in this environment. Septa Mordane getting drunk over summerwine and neglecting her duties, Jory's shabby looking outfit at the tourney (not that I condone the Septa mocking him) etc; they were simply not prepared for this kind of courtly life, and the one who most thinks she is, who has waited all her life to finally be in this kind of atmosphere, learns some very unpleasant truths about the lords and ladies who dominate it.

I def am too suspicious, it's not my fault tho! Can you blame me? LF's & Varys' machinating non-stop has got me looking at everything 4-5 times! lol

[1234567]

Edit: Silly comment!

[bgona]

There's a hint in a much later chapter (in ASOS) that Septa Mordane might have been trying to inject a little reality into Sansa's Fantasyland outlook on her future. During her wedding night, when the frightened Sansa is facing naked Tyrion and the imminent consummation of their forced marriage, she remembers that Septa Mordane had told her that every man's body has some part that is beautiful. It sounds like the Septa had anticipated that Sansa might not get the pretty young knight of her dreams as a bridegroom and was trying to give her a bit of practical guidance (well, as practical as one could get with a prepubescent and pre-King's Landing Sansa) to help her during a time in Sansa's life that would not necessarily be all sunshine and roses. Unfortunately, the Septa had not anticipated Tyrion as a husband for Sansa; but I don't blame her for that; it would not have been on anyone's radar while Ned and Catelyn were alive.

I think a huge part of the Hound's appeal for Sansa is that he is the most honest person she has met outside of Winterfell. The Hound does not pretend to be someone other than he is, at least not consciously. He does not smile and say the expected thing and then turn on her. He comes across as angry and tormented and rough; and that's the way he is most of the time; but he does speak the truth, at least as he sees it, to Sansa. In the months and years to come, I think part of Sansa clings to her memory of the Hound as a kind of emotional lifeline; in a similar way to her clinging (after the end of AGOT) to the memory of her family and Winterfell, and draws strength from it.

I was going to say something about Tyron and Sansa in their wedding night but finally I thought best to said when we reread the chapter.

However, what I must say that The Hound not only see her inocence but also that she is nice. The thought of a beautiful good young girl will disturbed him more that he wished.

About the armour´s of the tourney. If you realized they said a lot of the character of the participants. Not only if they were poor or not. But also that rough combatient normaly doesn´t were nice armors (except of The Knight of the Flowers and Jaime, this one so proud of been Lannister that always were golden armours).

[bgona]

I also wonder whether Sansa reminds Sandor of his own sister, who may have been murdered by their brother; and he sees through her another innocent who is going to be harmed by the essential darkness of real life. Because, for Sandor, life is not a song, life is a dark and vicious journey that one cannot face unarmed. And Sansa is not only innocent, she has no armor at all. (of course, a recurring theme for Sansa is that Courtesy Is A Lady's Armor, but the Hound knows that Courtesy is no match for axes, swords, and sadistic big brothers and princes; she's going to need more)

She weared all the time in KL and this kept her alive ("the courtesy armor"), even when the others thought that she was stupid.

[bgona]

I don´t think she ever told her father what happen during the night. Probably Septa Mordane woke up and came back by her owns feet.

Eddard didn´t know that Sansa had returned with The Hound. That would have disturbed a lot cause he didn´t like him (he didn´t know if he dislike more Jaime or The Hound, by we don´t know why).

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Oh Dear! Points for trying to be objective? :)

Although the description in the chapter has a certain difference. She isn't afraid of LF but it does say he made her uneasy, whereas Sandor scared the hell out of her. LF's comments and the touch were creepy. Sandor's mocking her and scaring her was nasty and dickish behaviour.

I tried to keep the wording similar to the text in terms of her feelings and impressions.

I dont 'have the book in front of me for detailed evidence from this chapter, and not much time to actually reply now, but if you look at Sandor's behavior, it is objectively creepy. I would be severely creeped out if a nearly complete stranger shoved me against a wall and started telling me about his disturbing past out of nowhere and then said he would kill me if I told anyone.

Maybe there is some definition of creepy behavior that I am not understanding - what Sandor did here was freakin' creepy!

I don't have a problem with anyone liking Sandor Clegane. What bothers me is all the whitewashing and giant leaps to reinterpret his actions that seem to take place in the forums. I will say that a few Sandor fans in particular are very good about not doing this (Alexia and Littlespider spring to mind).

The fact is Sandor's a creepy asshole towards Sansa at every opportunity. Sansa is typically freaked the hell out by him (and often even afraid) but because Sansa's the awesome person she is, she has sympathy towards him because he has suffered. After she's been away from him for a very long time she develops a strange sort of attraction towards him.

As for Littlefinger, if you look at Sansa in aSoS and aFfC she is also very conflicted about him. To such an extent that she divides the man into two and refers to the man who makes her feel safe and is kind to her as Petyr and the parts that freak her out as Littlefinger.

I'm not saying they are the same, exactly. I'm saying that both of them are big 'ol creeps and wayyy too interested in an 11 year old prepubescent girl.

The main difference is in Sansa's reactions. These are important for what Sansa chooses to do, but even if she's ultimately less creeped out by Sandor (not sure if I even agree with Rapsie's interpretation that this is true as of this chapter, I need to check the text), that does not mean that Sandor's behavior was less "creepy" than Petyr's.

[1234567]

Dictionary def of Creepy: producing an uneasy fearful sensation, as of things crawling over one's skin.

It describes her feeling uneasy when she meets LF, and his behaviour and words are something that illicits a creepy feeling. She feels genuinely shit scared and paniced with Sandor. Neither are positive emotions in this chapter! From how it's written, Sandor's behaviour is bullying and scary, but not creepy as per the definition above IMHO, but LF's is.

Also he doesn't push her against a wall to tell her his face story. They are in the middle of a field.

Also off topic, but I think most people who are fans of the character don't whitewash him, well at least not as I've seen! Most people (including myself) think he is a asshole, but don't mention it in every post.

Edit: MDIND please do read the text as well. Although both BrashCandy and myself will be doing chapter summaries it would be good of everyone read the chapters too. :)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I dont understand on how "producing an uneasy fearful sensation" does not realte to the Hound. Thats like the perfect defination for that interaction. In fact Sansa hardly describes the LF part at all (still creepy, but much less). I know that this reread is about the book, but you know how much i love getting off topic, lol. In HBO LF is the one to tell the story of The Clegane brothers, not Sandor. And because this "perfect girl" has the two worst love intrests in Westeros (LF and Hound) its strange that LF takes the line. I heard GRRM works with HBO, but it doesnt seem that way. Although the actor who plays LF is awsome so maybe thats why

[1234567]

I dont understand on how "producing an uneasy fearful sensation" does not realte to the Hound. Thats like the perfect defination for that interaction.

I don't know, I think being scared and creeped out are very different things. Like the definition said, it's like things crawling over your skin. It's like shuddering away from a nest of spiders. being terrified and afraid is different. To give an example: I find Qyburn creepy, but Gregor terrifying.

Edit: Or another example, someone pushing me against a wall and shouting at me would be terrifying, but I'd find someone following me home creepy. But I guess it is your reaction to the text. I found LF's interaction with her to be very creepy and Sandor's to be very scary. Her reactions, unease with one and fear with the other seemed to suggest this too. However neither feeling or sensation is a positive one.

By hey, maybe it just comes down to semantics. :)

[Lemon Cake]

Also off topic, but I think most people who are fans of the character don't whitewash him, well at least not as I've seen! Most people (including myself) think he is a asshole, but don't mention it in every post.

As you know, I myself am quite fond of making lists of all the times Sandor was inexcusibly a dick to Sansa. :) Especially when Sansa is criticized (not often, but it happens) for not happily running away with him after the Battle of the Blackwater.

[brashcandy]

The main difference is in Sansa's reactions. These are important for what Sansa chooses to do, but even if she's ultimately less creeped out by Sandor (not sure if I even agree with Rapsie's interpretation that this is true as of this chapter, I need to check the text), that does not mean that Sandor's behavior was less "creepy" than Petyr's.

You are right - the onus should be on Sansa's reactions, and I don't want to turn this into another Sandor the man/the monster argument, but he is very important to Sansa's development and you'd be missing a hellava lot to simply focus on his negative personality attributes, without considering the real benefits of their interaction to both of them. If you're defining Sandor as creepy because Sansa is afraid of him, then fine, he's very creepy - to everyone. Because he freaks people out generally because of his fierceness, his frankness and basic bad attitude. However he is in no way shape or form comparable to the kind of creepiness that LF embodies. My gosh we learnt in ADWD that LF was willing to marry Sansa back in AGOT. Indeed, the mere fact that later on she has to negotiate between his two identities - LF and Petyr - should tell us just how uncomfortable and conflicted she feels around him. With Sandor it's clear - he's an ass fullstop.

To the accusation of whitewashing Sandor's behaviour, as far as I know, nearly all of the regular posters on the Sandor threads - myself, Rapsie, Lemoncake, Starbird, Headtrip, Candace, Faceless girl, in addition to Alexia and Littlespider, admit fully and freely that Sandor's behaviour was out of line, his treatment of Sansa not ideal in many instances etc etc, so the fact that we may not reiterate it in every single discussion of their interaction does not mean it is not noted. Perhaps I should begin every post by issuing a disclaimer saying: "I am fully aware that Sandor is being an ass here..." I think the difference is that some posters have more negative reactions to some of Sandor's behaviour, whilst others may have a more positive reaction. It's not cool that he threathened her at the end of the chapter and it's pitifully sad that Sansa has to take her lessons from a man like Sandor Clegane, but the point is that she does learn something nevertheless, and WE learn a lot of Sansa via their relationship.

This is not a shipping thread, or a Sandor thread - it is designed to focus on Sansa, the character, and all of her interactions with everyone. So whilst we can argue to the day is long, (and I look forward to it MDIND) on Sandor's role in her life, I'd appreciate leaving the whitewashing accusations at the door.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I don't know, I think being scared and creeped out are very different things. Like the definition said, it's like things crawling over your skin. It's like shuddering away from a nest of spiders. being terrified and afraid is different. To give an example: I find Qyburn creepy, but Gregor terrifying.

Edit: Or another example, someone pushing me against a wall and shouting at me would be terrifying, but I'd find someone following me home creepy. But I guess it is your reaction to the text. I found LF's interaction with her to be very creepy and Sandor's to be very scary. Her reactions, unease with one and fear with the other seemed to suggest this too. However neither feeling or sensation is a positive one.

By hey, maybe it just comes down to semantics. :)

I feel that they are kind of synonyms, and if not then you are pulling hairs. Sandor is scary, yes, but creepy none the less.(giant, 1/2 a face, etc) Sansa seemed scared, for sure, but nothing like BW or the last chapter in ASOS, so i guess with hindsight i can say it wasn't that scary, but i guess i shouldnt... But seriously she knows that she is gonna marry the prince, she knows that her dad is hand, and she thought that she was untouchable, she knew her life was'nt in danger