From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[brashcandy]

You know what's funny about this scene too Rapsie, is that the Hound was probably expecting her to be all freaked out and shit, but the story actually calms her down, and she thinks she has to comfort him! (Sansa cannot be tamed!) :lol:

[littlespider]

She just seems so caught up in proper behaviour and yet the first feast and she drinks herself into a stupor.

I thought it was kind of hilarious. Go Septa.

[chavalah]

Thanks so much for the welcome, BrashCandy. I hope I'm not repeating too much; you guys are so prolific! I'm especially drawn to the poster who pointed out that Arya is empirical and Sansa is rational, and how that informs their responses to situations.

I see that in Ned's chapter when Arya starts hitting Sansa after her sister didn't tell the truth about what happened. All it really did was give more "proof" that she was wild and unruly. I felt bad for both girls--I can certainly understand Arya's anger that her sister didn't tell the truth, but I feel for Sansa, too. She makes a foolish decision (borne out of a scary and complicated situation), but she doesn't deserve to be beat on. Two wrongs don't make a right, if I can be so trite.

I really loved Sansa's reaction to Ser Hugh's death. It was a little detail that showed she was more than a two-dimensional girly girl. I also liked that she thought it through because her lack of response shocked her. She rationalized that if she knew him it would be a different story, and she'd already cried lots of tears for Bran and Lady. Even from this point in the story, before the worst of the worst starts to happen, she's able to compartmentalize her feelings, which doesn't mean that she's heartless (particularly towards her family) but I'd say its an asset in this story where life is so cheap. She has a very rich interior life as well, which is rather important, because all people on the outside (like Septa Mordane) see is that she's "composed." Speaking of Septa Mordane this reminds me of my least favorite scene in the tv show where Sansa was snooty for no reason--given this chapter that behavior seems to fit the Septa better, lol.

(Random aside--personally I would put the bulk of Sansa and Arya's upbringing on the Septa, because in a medieval society wouldn't it be she, rather than Catelyn, who was primarily responsible for their educations? Catelyn was certainly around, but her main job was to help run the household.)

Since the incident at the Trident I think its clear that Sansa views the situation through the prism of losing Lady, and not as broadly and objectively as perhaps she should. But this is very true to life when something so personally traumatic happens. Focusing on Lady she decides to blame Cersei (who ordered her death) and Arya (because Lady died in the place of Nymeria.) She's completely erased Joff's involvement in the whole debacle, perhaps remembering how he ended up bloodied and on the ground. And she's certainly been hearing tales about his grievous injury ever since, which leads to her observation that he's "not complaining" about his arm during dinner, which she admires as being brave. Very misguided, but understandable imho. They're still engaged and she still wants him to like her because let's face it--it would suck for your medieval husband (and the king) to hate you for the rest of your life. With Joffrey, I think, she's still cleaving to the hope for a fairy tale ending.

The scene with The Hound at the end is a wonderful debunking of the fairytale. Her ladylike lessons don't work on him; none of what she's been taught to expect he'd like (commenting him on his gallantry) makes him any warmer to her. Ser Gregor is a knight who is more of a monster than a savior. When Sandor tells her the story about what happened to his face her fear is replaced with sadness. This is an interesting parallel to her wedding night in aSoS--Tyrion lays down the ways that fate has been cruel to him, and her fear turns to pity. I'd call it a mark of strength in her character that she is able to feel sympathy for these two men who, in different ways, are victimizing her.

I'm actually a fan of Sansa's love of Westeros history and songs (though yes, applied incorrectly and they can be dangerous,) plus her impressive skill for courtesies/house sidgils/forms of flattery that are important for a high-born lady to impart among ego-hungry men, hee. There've been lots of great posts on these subjects.

Thanks, Rapsie, for the great summary!

[ARYa_Nym]

Jeyne's behavior wasn't stellar by any means, but I always saw her as a kid trying to be "cool" and make her friends laugh. Kids are often assholes when they're in groups, anyway. I feel bad for Arya, of course, but at the same time I don't judge Jeyne too harshly. Like Starbird said, much of it was just that she was trying to impress the prettier, higher-born Sansa. Interesting, though, that as others have noted, Sansa in comparison is quite gentle and considerate.

I think the need to impress had a lot to do with it but I also think she had some personal dislike for Arya. She said it again when Sansa wasn't around in ADWD. Since she was impersonating Arya she may have thought that Arya was dead by this time so it wasn't necessary to say it.

"I will be a good wife to him…I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he’ll see.” “You are the real Arya, my lady. Arya of House Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter, heir to Winterfell.”..”Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to call you Arya Horseface.” “It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn’t. I was pretty.”

In the next instance she wanted reassurance that she's pretty from Theon.

I think her bullying was typical though. Girls can be catty and competitive with each other.

[littlespider]

The scene with The Hound at the end is a wonderful debunking of the fairytale. Her ladylike lessons don't work on him; none of what she's been taught to expect he'd like (commenting him on his gallantry) makes him any warmer to her. Ser Gregor is a knight who is more of a monster than a savior. When he tells her the story about what happened to his face her fear is replaced with sadness. This is an interesting parallel to her wedding night in aSoS--Tyrion lays down the ways that fate has been cruel to him, and her fear turns to pity. I'd call it a mark of strength in her character that she is able to feel sympathy for these two men who, in different ways, are victimizing her.

Verra nice, chavalah, and welcome. I like your parallel between these two situations insofar as goes her ability to surpass fearful moments and victimization with sympathy.

Now, a question. She's additionally being victimized by Littlefinger. In my recollection, she hasn't had a similar reaction to him (sympathy). But then again, I don't actually think that Littlefinger has demonstrated any kind of genuine emotional response around her.

[Candor]

I think the need to impress had a lot to do with it but I also think she had some personal dislike for Arya. She said it again when Sansa wasn't around in ADWD. Since she was impersonating Arya she may have thought that Arya was dead by this time so it wasn't necessary to say it.

In the next instance she wanted reassurance that she's pretty from Theon.

I think her bullying was typical though. Girls can be catty and competitive with each other.

I read Jeyne as she thought she'd be a better sister than Arya, so she wishes she could have been in her place.

[Candor]

Eta: and the wicked GRRM's way of making that wish come true.............impersonating Arya in the marriage with Ramsay.

[headtrip_honey]

I think the need to impress had a lot to do with it but I also think she had some personal dislike for Arya. She said it again when Sansa wasn't around in ADWD. Since she was impersonating Arya she may have thought that Arya was dead by this time so it wasn't necessary to say it.

In the next instance she wanted reassurance that she's pretty from Theon.

I think her bullying was typical though. Girls can be catty and competitive with each other.

Possible there was a personal dislike, but there's not much evidence for it, since Jeyne doesn't appear that much. I'm more inclined to think it was just girls being girls. Arya wasn't good at the typical "lady-like" things, nor was she stereotypically pretty, so she was an easy mark. Jeyne may have been insecure next to Sansa, and wanted to impress her, so she made fun of the awkward sister that Sansa fought with constantly.

When she mentioned Arya in ADWD I just read it as her reminiscing about the "real" Arya. She's terrified here, so yes, she'd want some kind of reassurance, any kind she can get. And really the best she's gonna do in that situation is be told she's pretty.

Remember, Jeyne's been trained as a prostitute. She probably equates being "pretty" with being "safe." The prettier she is, the more her clients (and now Ramsay) will be pleased, and less likely to hurt her. Sad sad sad.

[ARYa_Nym]

I read Jeyne as she thought she'd be a better sister than Arya, so she wishes she could have been in her place.

Maybe since Arya and Sansa didn't get along Jeyne felt that she should have been her sister. In comparison, Sansa did say once that Margaery was the sister she dreamed of having.

"Sister. Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world's graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went. How can I let my sister marry Joffrey?"

So Jeyne was what she had to turn to growing up. Arya probably preferred having brothers.

[ARYa_Nym]

Possible there was a personal dislike, but there's not much evidence for it, since Jeyne doesn't appear that much. I'm more inclined to think it was just girls being girls. Arya wasn't good at the typical "lady-like" things, nor was she stereotypically pretty, so she was an easy mark. Jeyne may have been insecure next to Sansa, and wanted to impress her, so she made fun of the awkward sister that Sansa fought with constantly.

When she mentioned Arya in ADWD I just read it as her reminiscing about the "real" Arya. She's terrified here, so yes, she'd want some kind of reassurance, any kind she can get. And really the best she's gonna do in that situation is be told she's pretty.

Remember, Jeyne's been trained as a prostitute. She probably equates being "pretty" with being "safe." The prettier she is, the more her clients (and now Ramsay) will be pleased, and less likely to hurt her. Sad sad sad.

I see what Jeyne went through as a seperate issue in which I sympathy for.

She seemed to relish in Arya's misery from the little we got of her. When Arya didn't do well at the stitching, neighing whenever she came near, and the way she told Arya about Mycah's death was a little crass. This is typical behavior for a girl of her age though.

Putting Arya down may make her feel better about herself which happens when there is insecurity so it's understandable.

I do think that Jeyne helped Arya to form insecurities of her own but of course it wasn't her only.

[headtrip_honey]

I see what Jeyne went through as a seperate issue in which I sympathy for.

She seemed to relish in Arya's misery from the little we got of her. When Arya didn't do well at the stitching, neighing whenever she came near, and the way she told Arya about Mycah's death was a little crass. This is typical behavior for a girl of her age though.

Putting Arya down may make her feel better about herself which happens when there is insecurity so it's understandable.

I do think that Jeyne helped Arya to form insecurities of her own but of course it wasn't her only.

Agreed - I was just giving context for her comment about Arya in ADWD, since you brought it up.

[ARYa_Nym]

Agreed - I was just giving context for her comment about Arya in ADWD, since you brought it up.

I think in context her comment wasn't really necessary but it's understandable if we look at her insecurity. At the same time it's somewhat tactless to insult someone you're pretending to be because they're probably dead.

[Lemon Cake]

I think in context her comment wasn't really necessary but it's understandable if we look at her insecurity. At the same time it's somewhat tactless to insult someone you're pretending to be because they're probably dead.

Considering the situation Jeyne was in, I'm more than happy to cut her some slack for a little tactlessness. I'd like to think Arya would, too.

I thought it was kind of hilarious. Go Septa.

I did too, tbh. Poor Septa, she just seemed so out of her depth. Plus, more than anything, it was a plot contrivance so the Hound would have to escort Sansa home, so... I'm not as appalled by her lack of diligence and decorum as I should be, I guess?

[headtrip_honey]

I think in context her comment wasn't really necessary but it's understandable if we look at her insecurity. At the same time it's somewhat tactless to insult someone you're pretending to be because they're probably dead.

My point was, I don't think it was an insult. I think she was just remembering the way things *used* to be in Winterfell. Her "it was me who came up with that name" almost seems a bit guilty to me. She's remembering the real Arya, and for her, that includes the way she used to tease Arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

My point was, I don't think it was an insult. I think she was just remembering the way things *used* to be in Winterfell. Her "it was me who came up with that name" almost seems a bit guilty to me. She's remembering the real Arya, and for her, that includes the way she used to tease Arya.

I read it as her taking pride of the nickname that she came up with.

The comment before though was more catty. It may be true that she would be better than the real Arya but it's not really needed to be said.

Considering the situation Jeyne was in, I'm more than happy to cut her some slack for a little tactlessness. I'd like to think Arya would, too.

I think it's better if they never see each other again. I think her situation is very sad but whether it happened or not her relationship with Arya would have remained the same. Her comments were really a continuation of the attitude that she had towards Arya in the past.

[Candor]

I think Jeyne is past catty in ADWD.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Jeyne is past catty in ADWD.

I think she was when she finally married Ramsay.

She has never been mean to anyone other Arya which is why I think it was personal dislike.

[headtrip_honey]

It's probably pointless to continue talking about this, because clearly we read it differently, but here we go.

Jeyne is terrified. About to be married off to a man renowned for his cruelty. She's nervously trying to get reassurance that everything will be all right.

"I will be a good wife to him, and t-true. I...I will please him and give him sons. I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he'll see."

This statement is not about Arya. It is about her trying to convince herself that everything will be okay, that she'll please him.

Note it is Theon who brings up the cruel nicknames, and she immediately admits to making them up.

This whole scene has very little to ACTUALLY do with Arya, or Jeyne's feelings about Arya, but more about her absolute terror at being married to Ramsay. Arya is only being brought up because that's the identity Jeyne has assumed.

[ARYa_Nym]

It's probably pointless to continue talking about this, because clearly we read it differently, but here we go.

Jeyne is terrified. About to be married off to a man renowned for his cruelty. She's nervously trying to get reassurance that everything will be all right.

"I will be a good wife to him, and t-true. I...I will please him and give him sons. I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he'll see."

This statement is not about Arya. It is about her trying to convince herself that everything will be okay, that she'll please him.

Note it is Theon who brings up the cruel nicknames, and she immediately admits to making them up.

This whole scene has very little to ACTUALLY do with Arya, or Jeyne's feelings about Arya, but more about her absolute terror at being married to Ramsay. Arya is only being brought up because that's the identity Jeyne has assumed.

IA. It wasn't about Arya which is why I was saying that the comments about her weren't necessary. All that mattered was if Ramsay liked her.

I understand why she said it though.

[Candor]

I think she was when she finally married Ramsay.

She has never been mean to anyone other Arya which is why I think it was personal dislike.

I would argue she was once she started her 'training' in the brothels. That isn't any sort of place to keep a girl spirited.