From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Looking forward to it. I wonder if there might be an element of both?

I think there is. He's a man in conflict with himself.

I'm not sure this is true all of the time; I think the problem mainly ends up with occasional posters who stop by who all out dismiss him as simplistic and total evil rather than a character worthy of discussion and deep reading. I think dissenting opinions are pretty useful in our discussion, though. So, you'd be welcome in my book.

*shrugs* Well, I've posted stuff like I'm posting here a few times, and generally the few responses my posts do get seem to be quickly overwhelmed by other topics that are of specific interest to the posters there. This is totally fine. I'm just not particularly interested in most of the discussion that goes on in the Sandor/SanSan threads and the feeling seems to go both ways on that.

[1234567]

*shrugs* Well, I've posted stuff like I'm posting here a few times, and generally the few responses my posts do get seem to be quickly overwhelmed by other topics that are of specific interest to the posters there. This is totally fine. I'm just not particularly interested in most of the discussion that goes on in the Sandor/SanSan threads and the feeling seems to go both ways on that.

I agree with Littlespider on this. There is a difference between interesting and differing points of view that help everyone to appreciate a character better and posts that are meant to antagonize. It can be a very lighthearted thread, but it is also there for serious discussion.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I agree with Littlespider on this. There is a difference between interesting and differing points of view that help everyone to appreciate a character better and posts that are meant to antagonize. It can be a very lighthearted thread, but it is also there for serious discussion.

Getting off topic so this is the last I'll say,

The fact is that when I've posted in Sandor threads (never meaning to antagonize but simply meaning to bring another perspective), my posts get very little response and are quickly overwhelmed by other topics. I repeat, THIS IS JUST FINE. If people are more interested in discussing other topics wrt Sandor in the Sandor threads than that's what they should discuss. But in that context there's no good reason for me to post my opinions to an audience that isn't interested in discussing them. So I will continue to stay away. It's not an insult to anyone who posts in that thread that they happen to be interested in different topics than I am. I avoid many threads in this forum that I'm not interested in and I'm sure you all do too.

I'll try to keep my comments in this thread to the current chapters from now on though.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

(Random aside--personally I would put the bulk of Sansa and Arya's upbringing on the Septa, because in a medieval society wouldn't it be she, rather than Catelyn, who was primarily responsible for their educations? Catelyn was certainly around, but her main job was to help run the household.)

My only disagreement with this is in the results. If the Septa was that big an influence I think we would possibly see very different outcomes for both girls. Sansa did obviously take in a lot of lessons from the Septa regarding her courtesies and ladylike behavior, but I think her strength and a lot of her general kindness come from Cat and Ned. On the flip side, Arya is a complete failure on the Septa's part, if the intention was to turn her into a prototypical lady. Arya's main influences, IMO, seem to have been Ned and her brothers. I am not sure how much of the blame for this can be laid at the Septa's door, but I liked the idea posted upthread that Winterfell probably would not have gotten the "pick of the litter" when it came to being assigned a Septa. They probably had to take what they got. Since Sansa was an easy pupil, she had an easy time with her. Perhaps a more experienced or effective Septa would have had a more effective outcome with Arya.

In any case, how much the Septa is relied upon at home is difficult to gauge, since we have such a brief glimpse of their home life. It may be that, being somewhat out of the mainstream (and given their personalities), Ned and Cat took a more personal hand with their kids rather than consigning them entirely to a governess, and that is why each of their kids has been allowed to develop their own, very unique, very personal characters. The thing they all seem to share is their inner strength and general kindness, which i think are attributable to their parents. I am not a fan of Cat and really dislike her treatment of Jon, but as a mother to her own children I think she did a uniquely and admirably good job of allowing them to be who they were. It cannot be blamed on her that she did not foresee the need to train them to be kings and court ladies, she had no reason to think they would ever be called to those positions. She might have done more to prepare them once she knew they were going, but she did have Bran to cope with, and probably assumed the Septa and Ned were adequate.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think we agree in the essentials, and I really enjoyed reading your take. :)

Obviously within Sandor there's a battle between cynicism and idealism and I think this is the most interesting part of his character. I think ultimately Sansa's Idealism is much more powerful than his cynicism, and we will see (IMO) that she teaches him more than he teaches her.

You object to the use of my phrase "bring her down to his level," but if we both agree that he is trying to validate himself, I think the only difference would be whether or not Sandor thinks that cynicism is actually superior to idealism. I think we will see that Sandor doesn't fully believe in the cynicism he espouses. Hence, attempts to make Sansa more cynical in order to validate himself would be bringing her down/crushing her as he was crushed. But it's pretty much semantics.

In general, I think there are two points that could influence how we view Sandor's actions.

First, whose world view is more correct? Is everyone a monster and no one to be trusted and we should all turn to monsters ourselves or die in the process, or is everyone good at heart and we should try to be as good as we can in turn?

Second, does Sandor actually believe that his own world view is correct or does he doubt himself and secretly fear that his life is a lie he's told himself?

My opinion is that to the first point, neither of them are correct. However I am much more sympathetic to Sansa's view and I exult every time she shows signs that she has not lost it entirely after all she's been through.

To the second point, I think there's evidence that Sandor doesn't believe the cynical world view that he tries to foist off onto Sansa (and Arya later). He's so desperate for validation and shows a great deal of suppressed insecurity with his choices.

I'm not sure that there is one right worldview; nor does GRRM want us to espouse one. Everyone hardens a bit as they mature; it's usually not advisable to be as open and trusting at 25, or even 15, as one was as a five-year-old child.

Sandor is, more than some other characters who have done reprehensible things, open to the possibility of redemption; though at the time he meets Sansa, I am not sure he is aware of it. I can't think of why else he not only starts talking to her, deliberately scaring her, and telling her his Deep Dark Secret, and later supports her, helps her and ultimately comes to her in rage and despair. I'm not sure why Sandor starts grumbling and roaring at this eleven year old girl from the frozen north, especially since she is the daughter of a Great House and the betrothed of the sadistic crown prince who happens to be both his master and his charge. Sansa can't be the first pretty young girl to have peeked at the dreadful Hound's scarred face from behind a corner; there must have been plenty of high-born girls to have giggled and shrieked at the Hound's face. Why does he immediately unveil the great sorrow of his life to her?

It might well be that the Hound initially couldn't believe that such a girl as Sansa really exists; she's not only pretty, but she seems to believe in all that pretty talk she's spouting. Maybe the Hound feels that no one can be allowed to continue being so impossibly naive and silly about a very dangerous world, and that's why he tries his best to shock Sansa. Maybe he also feels that this little girl is in for a world of hurt, since she is betrothed to a boy that Sandor knows full well is a monster, and he is trying to get her to open her eyes about life before it chews her up and spits her out. Maybe it's a bit of both. What I think is new for Sandor, and might not have happened with any other young lady or even some would-be hero-worshipping boy who dared to stare at the Hound's face, is Sanda's empathic response. When he tells his tale of Gregor-horror, Sansa does not run off in horror; or even voice pity for Sandor; she comes up with the true but unintentionally funny line of "He was no true knight"; and she dares to touch him in sympathy.

I don't think Sandor really knows whether his worldview is correct; you are right in that he is not a complete cynic. There may well could be a very damaged idealist under Sandor's physical and emotional and verbal armor; not that he wants that to get out....

[Grail King]

Wow !

This went speeding on but I'll just put my 1 cent in. (in between snow shoveling)

3 characters Sansa, Hound and Little F. Baelish.

Sansa : young beautiful Naive brought up to believe the fairy tale, her primary interactions are Septa Mordane and her mother, her sister hung with the guys and hence had more interaction with her father this is where their personalities developed.

Starts to live the dream and has it rudely ripped from her seeing her father beheaded the household destroyed her family branded traitors .

The Hound : young innocent unlike Sansa lives in a some what dysfunctional family most likely believed in Knights until the day his brother burned his face, watches as his brother attains a Knighthood and grapples with the death of family members most notable his sister possibly by his older brother this is where his personalty developed.

Baelish : young a grandson of a Bravosi who became a ward of Hoster Tully, naive innocent living the fairy tale thinking he is good enough to marry into an important family only to be shot down and watch as the girl he loved becomes another man's wife and is humiliated in a duel only to realize this girl only liked him as a brother, gets another pregnant and is kicked out to fend for himself.

Their Outlooks

Sansa : now much less naive and trusting of many people, keeps her feelings bottled up deep inside split between two minds Sansa and Alaynne, as Sansa she uses courtesies to mask her feelings and take in information, plays on her innocence and acts less intelligent to learn how politicking works.

As Alaynne she acts above her bastard station learning how to control a house picking up tricks, tips and lies from LF and how he manipulates people.

Hound: bitter, cruel low esteem protects himself by inflicting pain on others either physical or mental, hates anyone with silly childish ideals, but deep down inside he wants peace, quiet, respect and most importantly someone to care for him (Sansa's touch her song) and him to care for someone, he sort of found it in both Stark girls.

Baelish : hates all hi-born the best way to say what he wants is to refer to the HBO show the scene with Ros and another prostitute here he goes over his life story and then states how he can't compete with the lords on their level so he's gonna F!@# them and take the realm he wants it all.

Hopefully Sansa can pick the parts from both men save her sanity and come out wiser yet keep the empathy and caring that she has.

Hound is slowly finding peace letting his rage go.

Baelish still cocky, major player and despite all his smarts is an evil person willing to ruin some young girls lives (Sansa and Jeyne) with out a care in the world they are no more than tools to use for his end,

[Fire Eater]

I believe that Sandor sees in Sansa a bit of himself, the innocent child that died long ago. In To Kill a Mockingbird mockingbirds represent innocent, good people who are destroyed by evil. In Sansa, Sandor sees a mockingbird like he was, such as when Joffrey had Ser Boros and Ser Meryn beat Sansa Sandor shouted for Joffrey to stop.

There is also another scenario. It is also stated that the Cleganes also had a sister that died, most likely killed by Gregor. Sandor possibly loved his sister who could've been like Sansa, and vowed to kill Gregor not just for thrusting his face into a brazier but for killing the sister he loved. In AGoT, he risked his life to stop Gregor from killing Ser Loras despite the fact he was a complete stranger he probably couldn't watch Gregor kill another person with the memory of his sister. He possibly sees his sister in Sansa. After his sister, Sansa was probably the only thing good and pure in his life.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I believe that Sandor sees in Sansa a bit of himself, the innocent child that died long ago. In To Kill a Mockingbird mockingbirds represent innocent, good people who are destroyed by evil. In Sansa, Sandor sees a mockingbird like he was, such as when Joffrey had Ser Boros and Ser Meryn beat Sansa Sandor shouted for Joffrey to stop.

I think you're right that Sandor sees himself in Sansa. But it's not clear that he actually wants to protect her innocence unequivocally. His actions show he's extremely conflicted on that account, at best.

There is also another scenario. It is also stated that the Cleganes also had a sister that died, most likely killed by Gregor. Sandor possibly loved his sister who could've been like Sansa, and vowed to kill Gregor not just for thrusting his face into a brazier but for killing the sister he loved. In AGoT, he risked his life to stop Gregor from killing Ser Loras despite the fact he was a complete stranger he probably couldn't watch Gregor kill another person with the memory of his sister. He possibly sees his sister in Sansa. After his sister, Sansa was probably the only thing good and pure in his life.

The Sandor's sister theory is possible but I don't think it's very well supported by the text. If she was such a big influence on him, I think he'd bring it up in his weakest moments - instead he dwells on his own pain and his fear of fire. Based on what we are actually told by the text, it seems more likely that Sandor hates Gregor because of what he did to him. Not just the burns, but also the psychological torture and destroying of his boyish dreams.

[1234567]

The Sandor's sister theory is possible but I don't think it's very well supported by the text. If she was such a big influence on him, I think he'd bring it up in his weakest moments - instead he dwells on his own pain and his fear of fire. Based on what we are actually told by the text, it seems more likely that Sandor hates Gregor because of what he did to him. Not just the burns, but also the psychological torture and destroying of his boyish dreams.

Also the day before he had watched Gregor killed Hugh of the Vale being murdered by his brother and it being passed off as an accident. The fact he mentions it at all shows that it bothers him. In his speech with Sansa, this admission about his brother, is (I think) the catalyst for the rest of the out pouring of his life history.

[brashcandy]

We're not covering it in our reread, but the next (Eddard) chapter where the tourney concludes, Sansa states that she knew the Hound would win after his first joust against Jaime. To my mind, this kind of surety sprang from their conversation the night before, but just what is it about that conversation that convinced her he would win? Or is it that she was secretly pulling for him given his confession? And why doesn't she appear more freaked out about him given how the conversation ends: "If you ever tell anyone, I'll kill you."

[David Selig]

One thing I noticed rereading this chapter is that Sansa had no reaction when she heard LF's name from Septa Mordane, she didn't thought "Oh, that's the guy who fought a duel with my uncle for the right to marry my mother". This probably means she didn't know that story. Was that confirmed later? My memory is a bit unclear on that.

I also noticed on my current reread that Arya knew the story of the duel - she noticed LF at the Baelor's Sept before Ned's execution and thought he "might be the one who had once fought a duel for Mother". It would be ironic if Arya knew that story at the time and Sansa didn't

[Caro99]

We're not covering it in our reread, but the next (Eddard) chapter where the tourney concludes, Sansa states that she knew the Hound would win after his first joust against Jaime. To my mind, this kind of surety sprang from their conversation the night before, but just what is it about that conversation that convinced her he would win? Or is it that she was secretly pulling for him given his confession? And why doesn't she appear more freaked out about him given how the conversation ends: "If you ever tell anyone, I'll kill you."

i think she was secretly wishing he would win. maybe an unconcious part of he thought that despite his heated words against knights, it would be good for him to win against jaime (not so sure if she would still want this if it was loras this early on) but she doesn't seeem to mind that loras let the hound take the winning honors. but i think she was happy that he stopped gregor not only so loras didn't die but because she knew what that would mean to Sandor.

and this made me wonder why sansa never even mentions jaime as a gallant figure. i mean, he is supposed to be really good looking and sansa digs that- he may have been too old for her liking, but she never even mentions his looks. just thought it funny.

[Lemon Cake]

Or is it that she was secretly pulling for him given his confession?

I think that's probably the most likely explanation.

Or, maybe she just honestly thought he was probably the better jouster? :dunno:

[Candor]

i think she was secretly wishing he would win. maybe an unconcious part of he thought that despite his heated words against knights, it would be good for him to win against jaime (not so sure if she would still want this if it was loras this early on) but she doesn't seeem to mind that loras let the hound take the winning honors. but i think she was happy that he stopped gregor not only so loras didn't die but because she knew what that would mean to Sandor.

and this made me wonder why sansa never even mentions jaime as a gallant figure. i mean, he is supposed to be really good looking and sansa digs that- he may have been too old for her liking, but she never even mentions his looks. just thought it funny.

He's the Kingslayer. He's not a true knight. :devil:

[Lemon Cake]

and this made me wonder why sansa never even mentions jaime as a gallant figure. i mean, he is supposed to be really good looking and sansa digs that- he may have been too old for her liking, but she never even mentions his looks. just thought it funny.

Yep, I think that's exactly it. After all, she thinks Beric Dondarrion is handsome but "old," and iirc, he's only 21 or 22. (Oh, to be an 11-year-old again...)

Anyway, I'm sure that's largely why she doesn't sigh dreamily over Jaime's looks. She considers him geriatric. That, and as Candace said, the whole kingslaying business would make him "not a true knight" in her eyes.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

and this made me wonder why sansa never even mentions jaime as a gallant figure. i mean, he is supposed to be really good looking and sansa digs that- he may have been too old for her liking, but she never even mentions his looks. just thought it funny.

Well she does spend a good half a paragraph talking about how well he rode in the joust. But you're right she never says he's particularly handsome. Probably the age difference - at over thirty he's like 10 years out of her preferred age range.

[clover]

I always brushed it off thinking that Sansa never mentioned Jaime because she, in fairytale mentality mode, would think of him as "my future uncle-in-law. You know, when she was digging Joff, that Jaime is just an older relative of her pampered prince. He's just the future uncle of her beautiful blonde babies.

I am still savoring the mention of the sister. I can't let it go. There is so much built up about Sandor and Gregor. The issues between the brothers, and then only a quick mention of the dad and the sister. I think we find out about her later. Or I am still suffering from Rowling paranoia. LOL. The quick sister mention just always made me feel like, hold on to that nugget, it will be important later. Like the mention of Harry's eyes... Nothing in the beginning, but huge later.

Also, I thought of how I could sum up Sandor and Sansa and their interactions in books 1 & 2.

She is the balloon and he is the kid with the needle that wants to burst it. And he does it over and over again.

And that is the question that badgers. Why? What is going on within his character consciously or subconciously .

[littlespider]

Yep, I think that's exactly it. After all, she thinks Beric Dondarrion is handsome but "old," and iirc, he's only 21 or 22. (Oh, to be an 11-year-old again...)

I have to say, this is one of my absolute favorite Sansa moments in the first book: "but he's so old!"

[Solaris]

I'm not sure that there is one right worldview; nor does GRRM want us to espouse one. Everyone hardens a bit as they mature; it's usually not advisable to be as open and trusting at 25, or even 15, as one was as a five-year-old child.

Sandor is, more than some other characters who have done reprehensible things, open to the possibility of redemption; though at the time he meets Sansa, I am not sure he is aware of it. I can't think of why else he not only starts talking to her, deliberately scaring her, and telling her his Deep Dark Secret, and later supports her, helps her and ultimately comes to her in rage and despair. I'm not sure why Sandor starts grumbling and roaring at this eleven year old girl from the frozen north, especially since she is the daughter of a Great House and the betrothed of the sadistic crown prince who happens to be both his master and his charge. Sansa can't be the first pretty young girl to have peeked at the dreadful Hound's scarred face from behind a corner; there must have been plenty of high-born girls to have giggled and shrieked at the Hound's face. Why does he immediately unveil the great sorrow of his life to her?

It might well be that the Hound initially couldn't believe that such a girl as Sansa really exists; she's not only pretty, but she seems to believe in all that pretty talk she's spouting. Maybe the Hound feels that no one can be allowed to continue being so impossibly naive and silly about a very dangerous world, and that's why he tries his best to shock Sansa. Maybe he also feels that this little girl is in for a world of hurt, since she is betrothed to a boy that Sandor knows full well is a monster, and he is trying to get her to open her eyes about life before it chews her up and spits her out. Maybe it's a bit of both. What I think is new for Sandor, and might not have happened with any other young lady or even some would-be hero-worshipping boy who dared to stare at the Hound's face, is Sanda's empathic response. When he tells his tale of Gregor-horror, Sansa does not run off in horror; or even voice pity for Sandor; she comes up with the true but unintentionally funny line of "He was no true knight"; and she dares to touch him in sympathy.

I don't think Sandor really knows whether his worldview is correct; you are right in that he is not a complete cynic. There may well could be a very damaged idealist under Sandor's physical and emotional and verbal armor; not that he wants that to get out....

I agree with everything that you are saying. The why Sandor does things he does, I think is relatively straight forward. He was the KL version of Aero Hota if you think about it. What I mean by that is he was always by Joff's side or the power players overhearing everything that goes on and seeing what was going on and I agree that he was conflicted by what was happening and what he was hearing, this is why he took it upon himself to dish out some lessons here and there.

Everything he does is tainted by his insecurity and inner turmoil, I think that is what makes it harder to see unless you really pull everything appart.

I always brushed it off thinking that Sansa never mentioned Jaime because she, in fairytale mentality mode, would think of him as "my future uncle-in-law. You know, when she was digging Joff, that Jaime is just an older relative of her pampered prince. He's just the future uncle of her beautiful blonde babies.

I am still savoring the mention of the sister. I can't let it go. There is so much built up about Sandor and Gregor. The issues between the brothers, and then only a quick mention of the dad and the sister. I think we find out about her later. Or I am still suffering from Rowling paranoia. LOL. The quick sister mention just always made me feel like, hold on to that nugget, it will be important later. Like the mention of Harry's eyes... Nothing in the beginning, but huge later.

Also, I thought of how I could sum up Sandor and Sansa and their interactions in books 1 & 2.

She is the balloon and he is the kid with the needle that wants to burst it. And he does it over and over again.

And that is the question that badgers. Why? What is going on within his character consciously or subconciously .

Conflict of values and ideology. It rips him to shreads. The Starks and what happened to them (and now Sansa) is causing him serious conflict. There is still honor about him, he is more a true knight than any of the others. IMO

[clover]

I can't remember for the life of me which thread I posted this on, but I mentioned how Sandor can be as calculating as Littlefinger is when he is on the job as the Hound in KL.

Somebody mentioned the quote where he says the direwolves nurse the Starks.

Yes, it was snarky, but also intuitive in a way. It foreshadowed the closeness Bran and some of the others would have with their pets. Ok, everybody probably knows the wolves are their sigil and they kept wolves, but before GOT direwolves hadn't been seen in years. Always made me wonder if that dialogue was something more.

Could be me reading too much into it.