From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[brashcandy]

@Lemoncake - Sansa and the Septa were on their way out of the gallery, so when they met with LF it wasn't in the full view of the court. And I think his reasoning would have matched what Varys told Ned in the previous chapter: When you're making an enemy of the Lannisters, it's best to make friends with the Tyrells.

[Lemon Cake]

@Lemoncake - Sansa and the Septa were on their way out of the gallery, so when they met with LF it wasn't in the full view of the court.

Ah, that makes sense. So it was really just Septa Mordane's fault. AGAIN. :P

[Grail King]

AGOT – SANSA III

Summary

<SNIP>

This one chapter here is what always gave me a bad feeling for her future so in hind sight the loss of her father was a gift to her, just sad she has very hard lessons to learn.

[brashcandy]

To me, this chapter is completely in line with an 11 year old (let's admit it, very spoiled) girl seeing her fondest wish torn to pieces. She does not think beyond her own daydream of being queen, to the fact that Joff and his family have proven untrustworthy and that going home would be safer. She lacks the foresight and experience that we all gain with maturity, that most things in life will work out fine, even if we don't get exactly what we thought we wanted. She is the child in the candy store being told she may not have candy now, but perhaps after dinner. And she responds with an according tantrum.

I completely agree with you on the point of her age, and it is something that has to be taken into consideration in all of her critiques, but Sansa's age cannot excuse her from accountability in her actions and words, however, and what we see in this chapter is a girl so insistent on living her dream world, that she doesn't mind if she has to create it herself - whether through mismemories or lying.

Sansa has had entirely too much thrown at her at once, and she simply cannot armor herself in composure and ladylike behavior anymore. Too much grief and too many disappointments too fast. She cannot take it out on her father or the Lannisters or the Septa; Arya is her only safe target and she (unfairly) gets the verbal lashings. Incidentally, Arya's line that Sansa has orange on her face, YOUR GRACE is one that cracks me up every time.

The line was funny :) Honestly, I agree that Sansa has had a lot thrown at her, but I don't know if what we're witnessing in this chapter is the cumulative effect of too much grief and disppointments. Surely, she's hurt and upset, but that only comes into full effect at the end of the chapter. Before that I was personally dismayed to see her kind of simply brush off what happened to Jory, not to mention choosing to lie about Mycah and defend the Hound.

The one area where I disagree with the analysis above is in what Sansa is now focused on. I believe she knows by now that her relationship with Joff is unlikely to be the great romance she had hoped for; she has therefore fallen back on being queen and mother to heirs as her fondest desire. If the romance part cannot be a song, then by gosh she will at least be in song as a great queen and the mother of great kings. I think this is shown in what she says to Arya regarding her having to bow to her, and in her emphasis on HER feelings for Joff, what SHE will do to be a good wife/queen, how SHE will fulfill her duties. Nothing about Joff loving her, or their great budding romance, or what a wonderful husband/father he will be.

I disagree with this. I think Sansa still believes Joffrey will be the Prince of her dreams, and this explains her devastation over the thought of leaving him. She has not yet realised anything near the extent of Joff's depravity and is anxious to convince others of this as well. Of course we could infer that some of this blatant lying is evidence about a growing uncertainty in the relationship, but overall I firmly believe she thinks Joffrey will be her Prince Charming. Indeed her vehement defence of him is what finally gives Ned the truth about Joff's parentage.

[David Selig]

Very good analysis. One detail from the previous chapter needs to be mentioned here since it's pretty relevant IMO. Ned saw Sansa watching the hearing of the smallfolk which survived Gregor's attack and was angry at Septa Mordane for bringing her since "this was no place for a girl". She was engaged to become Queen, she had to start learning about the real politics of Westeros and its brutal side ASAP. Yet Ned made no effort at all to teach her anything in this respect all those months since the engagement and prefer to keep her sheltered and completely unprepared for it. But taking 7 year old boys to watch beheadings was perfectly OK in his book. Don't get me wrong, Sansa was really good at creating her dream world on her own, but Ned's attitude certainly didn't help matters.

Anyway, I've always found it ironic how Sansa the naive romantic and the two most knowledgeable political masters in Westeros (Varys and LF) reached the same conclusion about sending Loras after Gregor, but for completely different reasons.

[Solaris]

name='brashcandy' timestamp='1327333777' post='2935657']

Oh I forgot to talk about the curious dream she has with Lady of them running together - was this an aspect of a warg dream - but obviously her inability to remember is because of Lady's death and the disconnect between them?

I cant agree with this only because Lady is dead. It can't have been lady she warged with - clearly she thinks it's lady but it just cannot be. Maybe she tried to connect with one of her siblings wolves and hence the lapse in memory? An unsucessful upload into Nymeria perhaps? The other solution is possibly Bran coming back in time through the weirwoods to her dreams? I don't know if that can happen either though - she may have to be in a weirwood for that, but we know that Bran can communicate through time as he did with Ned in the Godswood @ winterfell before he left for KL.

[Starbird]

LadyoftheNorth72: "But Sansa has been raised in an authoritative twilight zone" Ha!

I'm currently wondering what's going on with Sansa and Ilyn Payne. He stared her down before, thinking of him now makes her feel like she's got a dead thing slithering on her skin, and she's afraid of him again (not to jump ahead) during the battle scene. I don't doubt that he's a creepy dude, and a captive related to traitors (again, not to jump ahead) should have a healthy respect for the local headsman but . . . doesn't Sansa's reaction to him, and his initial interaction with her, seem a little extreme? Like it's foreshadowing the moment Sansa's dragged back to justice in KL . . . or something.

I'm not so sure that Sansa's still convinced Joff is her Prince Charming . . . I think it may be that she's just not ready to admit that he's not. How could she not be devastated thinking she's going to spend the rest of her life with a petulant, cruel, insecure monster? Better to hope his better nature prevails.

[brashcandy]

Very good analysis. One detail from the previous chapter needs to be mentioned here since it's pretty relevant IMO. Ned saw Sansa watching the hearing of the smallfolk which survived Gregor's attack and was angry at Septa Mordane for bringing her since "this was no place for a girl". She was engaged to become Queen, she had to start learning about the real politics of Westeros and its brutal side ASAP. Yet Ned made no effort at all to teach her anything in this respect all those months since the engagement and prefer to keep her sheltered and completely unprepared for it. But taking 7 year old boys to watch beheadings was perfectly OK in his book. Don't get me wrong, Sansa was really good at creating her dream world on her own, but Ned's attitude certainly didn't help matters.

Excellent point. Is it any wonder then that events play out the way they do?

Anyway, I've always found it ironic how Sansa the naive romantic and the two most knowledgeable political masters in Westeros (Varys and LF) reached the same conclusion about sending Loras after Gregor, but for completely different reasons.

Indeed. And if Ned had listened to either side he might have been better off for it.

[Lemon Cake]

Ned saw Sansa watching the hearing of the smallfolk which survived Gregor's attack and was angry at Septa Mordane for bringing her since "this was no place for a girl". She was engaged to become Queen, she had to start learning about the real politics of Westeros and its brutal side ASAP. Yet Ned made no effort at all to teach her anything in this respect all those months since the engagement and prefer to keep her sheltered and completely unprepared for it. But taking 7 year old boys to watch beheadings was perfectly OK in his book. Don't get me wrong, Sansa was really good at creating her dream world on her own, but Ned's attitude certainly didn't help matters.

That's a good point. I love Ned, but looking back, it's easy to get exasperated with him for the way he coddled and sheltered Sansa from some harsh truths. I can understand feeling protective, especially of a daughter like Sansa who was so gentle by nature. But the girl was going to be queen and was marrying into a family like the Lannisters. Ned did her no favors by not doing anything to prepare her for the harsh reality of life at court. It's even more frustrating because he did make an effort with Arya, but not with Sansa.

Anyway, I've always found it ironic how Sansa the naive romantic and the two most knowledgeable political masters in Westeros (Varys and LF) reached the same conclusion about sending Loras after Gregor, but for completely different reasons.

Ha! Foreshadowing? ;)

[Solaris]

LadyoftheNorth72: "But Sansa has been raised in an authoritative twilight zone" Ha!

I'm currently wondering what's going on with Sansa and Ilyn Payne. He stared her down before, thinking of him now makes her feel like she's got a dead thing slithering on her skin, and she's afraid of him again (not to jump ahead) during the battle scene. I don't doubt that he's a creepy dude, and a captive related to traitors (again, not to jump ahead) should have a healthy respect for the local headsman but . . . doesn't Sansa's reaction to him, and his initial interaction with her, seem a little extreme? Like it's foreshadowing the moment Sansa's dragged back to justice in KL . . . or something.

I think the description of Ser Payne backs up the theory that the girl is an empath. I think that anyone that has got strong emotions going on around her directed at her in particular is making them felt physically. Ilyn is descibed as "only lives to kill" she seems to know for a certainty that he IS a monster just like Gregor...

[Raksha the Demon]

So far, not just this chapter, but in the entire series, have we seen any proof that Ilyn is a monster? From what I remember, he's just a knight who had his tongue cut out by the Mad King, and does his job well. His job isn't a pleasant one; but I don't remember any indications that he was unnecessarily cruel. I wonder if Sansa either has a premonition of Payne executing her father, or worse - perhaps there will be a moment when Sansa is dragged up to Payne to be executed for poisoning Joffrey? If Cersei's agents find Sansa and take her back to King's Landing, that could happen, unless there's a last-minute reprieve or rescue....

[Lemon Cake]

Forgive my randomness and backtracking, but the brief scene with Littlefinger is striking to me, because I am of the firm belief that Littlefinger would not be wasting his time teaching Sansa to play the game of thrones if he didn't think she was smart enough to learn, if she hadn't given him some reason in these early books to believe that she could be a competent player. And yet here, when he gives her her first test, she seems to fail rather spectacularly. It'll be interesting to me to pick out moments in future chapters that may have made Littlefinger believe she has the potential to be a good game player.

[brashcandy]

Forgive my randomness and backtracking, but the brief scene with Littlefinger is striking to me, because I am of the firm belief that Littlefinger would not be wasting his time teaching Sansa to play the game of thrones if he didn't think she was smart enough to learn, if she hadn't given him some reason in these early books to believe that she could be a competent player. And yet here, when he gives her her first test, she seems to fail rather spectacularly. It'll be interesting to me to pick out moments in future chapters that may have made Littlefinger believe she has the potential to be a good game player.

Hmmm, she did fail spectacularly, but I don't think LF wrote her off as a lost cause because of it. He probably realised that she gave a typical answer for an 11 yr old, and maybe it worked to strengthen his resolve to begin working on stealing her away from the Lannisters. It's interesting because whilst her naivete seems to completely annoy Sandor, LF responds in a much more "gentle" fashion. I guess it highlights the difference between the two men, but LF's approach seems to leave Sansa feeling a lot more troubled and perturbed.

[Lemon Cake]

Hmmm, she did fail spectacularly, but I don't think LF wrote her off as a lost cause because of it.

Oh yes, I agree that it didn't make him write her off as a lost cause. That's exactly why it interests me. What was it about Sansa at this point that made him pay such close attention to her? Was it just her beauty and resemblance to Cat*, or did he see something in her, even this early on, that made him realize she could play the game well, despite the poor answer she gave to his question?

* It probably really is as simple as that, and I'm overthinking it. But I can't help it -- it interests me so much!

[brashcandy]

No no, it is interesting :) My take on it is that he never really bothered about whether she could play the game or not. He overheard her comment and was intrigued for a moment in thinking that maybe she might have a good answer as to why Ned's decision was bad. But LF's mode of questioning her is distinctly to let her think on her own, unlike what I would consider to be the Septa's rather rudimentary style of teaching, hence Sandor's accusation that she's just another talking bird. The effect this has on Sansa is that she feels uneasy, but it's probably a combination of not knowing what to make of LF himself, and an awareness that she failed a test she had no idea she was taking. In having to voice those thoughts out loud, she probably senses just how childish and simplistic they appear. If LF is having one good impact on her, it's in getting her to think analytically about situations.

[Lemon Cake]

It's interesting because whilst her naivete seems to completely annoy Sandor, LF responds in a much more "gentle" fashion. I guess it highlights the difference between the two men, but LF's approach seems to leave Sansa feeling a lot more troubled and perturbed.

I think at this point both men make her feel highly uncomfortable to an equal degree, but in very different ways and for very different reasons. With Sandor, it's obvious and straightforward: He's scares the bejeezus out of her, simple as that, and the reason he scares her is equally simple (he's huge and scary-looking and he threatened her life). With LF, it's much more vague; he just gives Sansa a feeling of general unease, but she doesn't know why; there's just something about him that creeps her out, but she can't put her finger on what it is. But I think both of them leaving her feeling extremely unsettled.

My take on it is that he never really bothered about whether she could play the game or not. He overheard her comment and was intrigued for a moment in thinking that maybe she might have a good answer as to why Ned's decision was bad. But LF's mode of questioning her is distinctly to let her think on her own, unlike what I would consider to be the Septa's rather rudimentary style of teaching, hence Sandor's accusation that she's just another talking bird. The effect this has on Sansa is that she feels uneasy, but it's probably a combination of not knowing what to make of LF himself, and an awareness that she failed a test she had no idea she was taking. In having to voice those thoughts out loud, she probably senses just how childish and simplistic they appear. If LF is having one good impact on her, it's in getting her to think analytically about situations.

I love everything you said here, especially the bolded part. Whatever my feelings about Littlefinger as a person, if Sansa can manage to survive her time in the Vale without being molested or assisting in the murder of a child, then I can't help thinking that her time spent with Littlefinger is invaluable, simply because what she's learning is so important. But I'm jumping way ahead, so I'll stop there.

[bgona]

Please: what means bejeezus?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

First, @Brashcandy, I loved your analysis of this chapter. If it made any difference I'd be assaulting the like button right now. I feel like I have very little to add on top of that.

I think someone in the books makes the point that sending Loras brings the power of House Tyrell to Ned's side, and that's what Littlefinger was thinking. As for ballsiness, IIRC, I'm pretty sure Littlefinger counsels Ned against sending Loras (probably to weaken him) and then walks over to his daughter and admits that sending Loras would have been right! Sometimes I feel like LF's whole success is not based on brilliant scheming but getting lucky and then lying about how it was what he planned all along.

Actually, my first thought when I read that part was that sending Loras would have been a good idea because he would inevitably have been killed by Gregor, because let's face it, everyone who goes up against him is inevitably killed, even if they're fire-magicked back to life. They also had a history of mutual dislike from the tourney where Gregor probably developed a personal vendetta against Loras. Gregor is an agent of the Lannisters, everyone with a hand in the game knows this, just as all the players already know that Cersei's kids are Jaime's kids. The death of the Tyrell golden child at the hand of a Lannister pet pits the Tyrells and Lannisters against each other, further consolidating the power of the hand, who can watch these fools tear themselves apart, leaving him to do as he wills. The Lannisters are powerful, ruthless, and inimical to anyone siding against perceived Lannister interests. The last hand saw this first hand and we see this in the political machinations in feast and ADWD. Having the Tyrells and Lannisters hate each other off the bat would be so helpful to a hand. Anyway that was my take on that whole thing, and I thought that bit was really interesting...sorry to dwell on it.

The second thing I found really interesting was Sansa's observation about Jeyne being too low born to marry Beric. This parallels Cat's obervation that Mya Stone is too lowborn to marry that squire she loves. This is interesting because Jeyne, through the deceit and manipulation of others, looks poised to take over Arya's identity and birthright. Issue of identity and its loss and change is so imporant in this series, name and birth are forgettable, changeable, malleable, only thing that truly defines a person is ability and character. The reason Jeyne will always seem out of place as Lady of Winterfell and especially Arya, if she were to be forced to maintain that charade, is not her low birth which has been buried, but because she's quite meek, passive. Arya, despite faceless man training, hangs onto her wolfblooded ways, hides needle, relishes her wolf dreams, is incorrigible. For better or worse she will always be in essence Arya, by any other name. At this point in the story Sansa is a little too obsessed with outer appearances and heraldry. Both Stark sisters are learning to see with their eyes.

I just really disagree with this on a lot of levels:

To me, this chapter is completely in line with an 11 year old (let's admit it, very spoiled) girl seeing her fondest wish torn to pieces. She does not think beyond her own daydream of being queen, to the fact that Joff and his family have proven untrustworthy and that going home would be safer. She lacks the foresight and experience that we all gain with maturity, that most things in life will work out fine, even if we don't get exactly what we thought we wanted. She is the child in the candy store being told she may not have candy now, but perhaps after dinner. And she responds with an according tantrum.

Although I was disappointed in a lot of her words and actions, I think this chapter is meant to remind us that Sansa is ELEVEN. Still a child.

Her being 11 does not excuse her petty behavior and words in this chapter one bit. Her being a child allows us to understand her motivations, as it does all through GoT, but this was her absolute lowest point in the book. She was just being flat out petty, and she really could have used a talk from Ned about looking at the big picture, and being supportive of your family in the worst of times. I understand that she really fit in in southern courtly life and her dreams were shattered when she thought she'd have to leave that. I understand her disappointment. But there are OTHER ways to express disappointment. Telling your sister you wish she had died instead of Lady, ridiculing Hodor, lying to yourself and others about Joff, comparing Alyn favorably to a dead man who died defending your father, are not good ways to express that disappointment. I understand it, but if my own future child were to act this way, I would sit her down and explain to her why her behavior is not appropriate, not brush it off as "kids being kids." That doesn't mean Sansa is a bad person, at all, but she was behaving very poorly here, and needed to understand that.

The one area where I disagree with the analysis above is in what Sansa is now focused on. I believe she knows by now that her relationship with Joff is unlikely to be the great romance she had hoped for; she has therefore fallen back on being queen and mother to heirs as her fondest desire. If the romance part cannot be a song, then by gosh she will at least be in song as a great queen and the mother of great kings. I think this is shown in what she says to Arya regarding her having to bow to her, and in her emphasis on HER feelings for Joff, what SHE will do to be a good wife/queen, how SHE will fulfill her duties. Nothing about Joff loving her, or their great budding romance, or what a wonderful husband/father he will be.

I believe Sansa has come to identify with what she sees as the long suffering Cersei with her imperfect sot of a husband. I think that is why she goes to Cersei with the news of their departure. She has come to see herself and Cersei as sisters in fate, married to kings who do not deserve them (in different ways), but still the loved and admired amd beautiful and fertile queen who will save the realm by providing heirs and mitigating their husband's nonsense as much as possible. After all, if you look at the melee situation, from Sansa's POV, it probably looks like Cersei talked Robert out of it. She has no idea it was really her father and Selmy.

I disagree with this based on textual evidence. Sansa wants to have Joff's babies, not just some babies of some lovely handsome man somewhere. In the much alluded to chapter where she goes to see Cersei, one of her first thoughts is disappointment at the fact that Joffrey, "her prince" is not there. While there is plenty of evidence that she still loves Joff, or the idea of Joff, at this point, there is none indicating that she feels kindred with Cersei because of her troubles with Robert, because she sees herself in the same position with Joff.

[bgona]

This makes me really curious to know what reasons Littlefinger would have given for sending Loras.

That will means Tyrells against Lannister, and the Tyrells will be in your side. Nedd send to Beric that hadn´t so much House power as the others.

[1234567]

Bejeezus: IMHO is an Irish dialect version of "Oh Jesus" used in the context of getting a fright. For example, a friend jumps out of a door way to scare you and you might exclaim "Oh Jesus", or if you're me "Jesus Christ, followed by a swift utterance of far worse profanities concerning the person who had jumped out of the doorway, using a slang term for the act of fornication and a woman's lady parts".