From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[brashcandy]

I think even at this stage in the narrative the parallel arcs of Sansa and Cersei are being established and IMHO the stage is being set for Sansa to be the younger Queen from the Maggy the Frog Prophecy.

Compare Sansa’s “love” for Joffery with Cersei’s recollections of Rhaegar from AFFC

Cersei

The text also notes that “Cersei had been so happy that day”, but “her laughter died at tourney’s end.”

Sansa

Sansa has the same excitement as Cersei did over meeting her prince. Both have dreamed about an ideal prince for years. Both also want to comfort them. Both days start out happy and then end by with the path of both girls’ lives changed forever.

This memory of Cersei’s seems to echo the experience of Sansa to a certain degree. She had been promised to marry a prince and her head was full of thoughts of how wonderful and fairytalesque her life was going to be. With only a year between them, it seems to imply that it is normal for high born maids of 10 or 11 to still believe in fairytale ideas and it would only be later that the realities of married life would be explained to them.

In a sidenote, does anyone think it is significant that the Arya/Joff fight happens in exactly the same place as the Rhaegar / Robert fight? Are there implications or foreshadowing involved here?

Great work in highlighting those parallels, Rapsie! Those were eerily similar descriptions of childish infatuation between Cersei and Sansa. I also like that it highlights that Sansa is not some aberration from the norm in terms of blind crushes. I do think there may be some foreshadowing involved in the fights as well, and Arya's explicit reason for not going with Sansa that day is because she and Mycah will be out looking for Rhaegar's rubies in the stream. Someone else might be able to speak to the detailed relevance here, but as we know, important things do seem to happen by this river. Also, Arya threw Joff's sword into the river; I wonder if that has washed up on the Quiet Isle too?

Nice catch on Serwyn. This seems too coincidental not to be involved with the Ghost of High Heart prophecy.

Yeah, I was excited about this too, and Sandor seems like a dead ringer for Serwyn, right down to the mention of being haunted by the ghosts of people he's killed.

Indeed the whole fight scene is a lot more brutal than I remembered as well. What is interesting though is Arya does go for Joffery after he cut Mycah’s cheek and that Joffrey did not attack her first, although he had attacked Mycah. Standing up for a victim against a bully is always laudable, however Joff was the Crown Prince. Arya enflamed the whole situation by attacking him.

Whilst a lot of people seem to see Arya as more pragmatic, I would say this chapter also highlights that in her own way Arya was just as naïve as Sansa, because she was also convinced her life would be a fairytale: one that involved fighting and swords and doing as she pleased. (Ironically this has sort of come to pass. ) Sansa gets annoyed that whenever Arya acts in an unladylike manner her father laughs it off and hugs her (and in so doing reaffirms her bratty behaviour). I am always surprised that Ned did not make it more implicit to Arya that she could not act the way she had done at Winterfell when they were in KL or travelling with the King and Queen. If it hadn’t have been for Bran’s fall, I am certain that Cat would have talked to her and Ned about this. Ned is not used to Southron courts, Cat was. Ned’s indulgence of Arya’s wild streak and rebellious nature is one of his failings.

Yup. Both Cat and Ned were sorely negligent in preparing these girls, and I think Ned's lack of control over Arya during the procession down South created a mess of problems. You also get the sense of how isolated these girls are and surrounded by Lannister henchmen when Sansa becomes scared of Ilyn Payne, and later on when Arya is recaptured and brought to the Queen after the fight. Not an ideal atmosphere.

NB: Don’t know why I never noticed this before Joffrey. Maybe those letters are evil. <_<

An inspired observation Rapsie

:cheers:

[brashcandy]

Is it so? I beg to differ.

One of Robert's best qualities, one that Joffrey evidently did not learn well, was refusing to take things far too seriously when such seriousness was not warranted.

Joffrey took far more after Cersei on this. I'm not sure why you disapprove to strongly of her refusal to give terrain to Joffrey on the Mycah incident. It seems to me that things would be far worse if she did bend to his will. Perhaps not immediately, granted, but still.

That's the thing - I don't really blame her for attacking Joffrey, I just wish she hadn't. I think Arya was allowed to run too wild on the road; at least at Winterfell there were some checks and balances on her behaviour, but during the ride down South she goes off on her own everyday with the butcher's boy, gets dirty, acquires rashes, and Ned just hugs her and shrugs it off. I think Joffrey wanted to scare Mycah, but I'm not convinced he would have done him permanent harm. I should note here that no one was checking on Sansa's behaviour either. It wasn't exactly wise to allow her to go off with Joffrey alone (no Hound or Lady to supervise), and she proceeds to drink too much wine etc.

[Raksha the Demon]

Not really. I don't particularly blame LF for Lyssa's mental state, although I don't think he helped at all. I figured that Hoster Tully and her forced marriage were more decisive - and from what we learn by Lysa's own account, that in turn was basically a result from her own mistake, albeit tragically so.

And that is the thing. In AFFC, by my reading, she is visibly cracking, and quite seriously so.

She is keeping herself together externally, but only at the cost of losing herself internally. But I guess this thread will come to that point in due time.

That sort of is the problem. She is making way too many concessions for that darned Petyr Baelish. For one thing, she seems to actually fear being recognized by Bronze Yohn Royce. It is even hinted, if not stated outright, that at that point she may trust Baelish over Royce. Which is a very grave mistake, and she ought to know that well after witnessing what Dontos, Robert Arryn and Lyssa suffered by trusting Baelish. That, by and of itself, is clear evidence to me that Sansa has unfortunately broken.

When we last see Sansa in AFFC, she is, in my opinion, standing on the edge of a moral precipice. On one hand, she is repulsed by Baelish's sexual attentions; and on the other, she trusts him as a protector; and is agreeing with his direction of a potentially dangerous treatment for her helpless young cousin. I don't think that Sansa has realized, when she is arguing with the Maester, that the sweetsleep could kill Robert; she might think (have been told by Littlefinger, or even deceived herself into believing) that they could just use the sweetsleep to get the kid down the mountain so he wouldn't have to be carried the whole way and so be seen to be feeble. But if Sansa continues to acquiesce and abet the administration of the sweetsleep to Robert, she will cross an important moral line.

On the other hand, Sansa is totally dependent on Littlefinger; and she's seen what happens to those who refuse to march to his tune, such as her own aunt. Sansa's main fault is a tendency to deceive herself; she might be talking herself into believing that Littlefinger is not out to kill little Robert.

I can certainly understand Sansa's decision not to reveal herself to Bronze Yohn. Why should she trust him, or any Arryn vassal, over Petyr? Where were they when Joffrey's Kingsguard was beating her, or when she was forced to marry Tyrion Lannister? It was Petyr who delivered Sansa from King's Landing. At least that might be how Sansa sees things.

[Candor]

I just find find it hipocratical him critisising Renly because of his youth and calling him a fool for that(early tweny), when he himself decided to choose a teenager as a royal he would serve (and not Stannis for example). At least Renly is not the grudgebearer type, but the one who could laugh even at himself. I really miss him. Sorry a little off.

Re-reading this bit, I am given the impression that youth might not be the motivation for what Barristan says. After all, like we hear after he is dismissed from the KG, people are wondering which claimant he will appear to, because that will represent an important distinction. Barristan is noble, and will only serve the rightful heir. Not the best looking, the richest, the most morally sound... the correct one, even if they a terror like Joffrey.

I think Selmy is more concerned about Renly's attitude than age. He's not serious, perhaps not as capable as one would like.

And when he leaves, he goes not to Renly or Stannis, but to Daenerys, the youngest claim apart from Joff.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

What a contrast to my own reading of the situation. For one thing, I'm not sure Arya would ever enter an arranged marriage, or even be pressured into one by Ned. It doesn't really go well with what I gather of their views on ethics and personal responsibility.

Arya was literally the last in line as inheritor of Winterfell (behind even Rickon). If the Blackfish couldn't be forced to marry, why should her? At least at that point in time, I just don't see Ned planning to tell her that she must marry "according to her station" or some such folly. Not with Robb, Bran, Rickon and Sansa all living and ahead of her as lords and lady in waiting, certainly. And perhaps not even if she were the last living Stark. It is just too much to ask of her, for too dubious a benefit.

Probably eventually unless she would have found something else to do. And even if he didn't Cat had no problem marrying her off.

That sort of is the problem. She is making way too many concessions for that darned Petyr Baelish. For one thing, she seems to actually fear being recognized by Bronze Yohn Royce. It is even hinted, if not stated outright, that at that point she may trust Baelish over Royce. Which is a very grave mistake, and she ought to know that well after witnessing what Dontos, Robert Arryn and Lyssa suffered by trusting Baelish. That, by and of itself, is clear evidence to me that Sansa has unfortunately broken.

Except she knows what LF wants. As disgusting as he is, she's safer playing him than risking an unknown figure at this point.

[brashcandy]

Arya doesn't see the appeal of boys yet is all. Her independent fire will remain as she gets older, no doubt, but this vibe we got from her of "I'll never settle down" was just a passing phase, probably. We caught her during that 'year of the tomboy' to start the story, and then she's been so busy just trying to survive ever since that we never got to see how her development would have progressed into a mixture of Sansa traits and tomboy qualities. If there'd been no war, in another couple few years she'd have been like "Damn! That Xander boy's hot. ...Okay, show me how to do that square dance thing again."

I think this is true. The war changed everything for everyone in Westeros. It's difficult to say if Sansa would still be engaged to Joffrey because this all hinges on Ned not finding out that he was not Robert's true heir, but perhaps if Ned had lived, the war would not have developed to such a terrible extent. I do think that Arya would have eventually settled into being a Lady of a castle, though, even if she was a rather unconventional one.

ETA: What I found interesting in reading that first chapter is how much Arya and Sansa are fighting a battle of wills, and seem to define a lot of themselves in opposition to one another. Coming from a family where my sister and I bonded over our similarities, I found it revealing and amusing :)

[Lemon Cake]

ETA: What I found interesting in reading that first chapter is how much Arya and Sansa are fighting a battle of wills, and seem to define a lot of themselves in opposition to one another. Coming from a family where my sister and I bonded over our similarities, I found it revealing and amusing :)

That interests me, too. Arya in particular almost constantly compares herself with Sansa in the first book. Even the name she gives her sword is, in part, both a snipe at Sansa and an effort to emphasize how different she feels she is from her sister. "Sansa can keep her sewing needles. I've got a Needle of my own."

I don't have any sisters, so their dynamic is both foreign and really interesting to me.

[Lemon Cake]

I can certainly understand Sansa's decision not to reveal herself to Bronze Yohn. Why should she trust him, or any Arryn vassal, over Petyr? Where were they when Joffrey's Kingsguard was beating her, or when she was forced to marry Tyrion Lannister? It was Petyr who delivered Sansa from King's Landing. At least that might be how Sansa sees things.

And besides, at one point when Bronze Yohn was staring at her intently, she did consider revealing herself and begging for his protection. That alone shows that she doesn't completely trust Littlefinger and knows that she could well be in danger with him. But she also doesn't yet know if she can trust Bronze Yohn, and Littlefinger had gotten her out of King's Landing, so she's conflicted and ultimately doesn't follow through on revealing herself.

Still, I think it's one of several examples that show she hasn't fallen into the trap of completely trusting Littlefinger. At least not yet. I fervently hope it stays that way.

ETA: Just realized we're supposed to be talking about the first book and I jumped waaaaaaaaayy ahead. Sorry, I got carried away. I'll rein it in in future posts.

[brashcandy]

That interests me, too. Arya in particular almost constantly compares herself with Sansa in the first book. Even the name she gives her sword is, in part, both a snipe at Sansa and an effort to emphasize how different she feels she is from her sister. "Sansa can keep her sewing needles. I've got a Needle of my own."

I don't have any sisters, so their dynamic is both foreign and really interesting to me.

Yup! I wonder if it partly explains why Sansa is snobby and Arya is an "everybody" kinda girl. On the one hand, Sansa absolutely thinks it's distasteful that Arya runs around with someone like the Butcher's boy, and Arya seems to be at be pains to prove that she can rough it with anyone. Both their likes and dislikes are then further entrenched by being so at odds with one another. Later on, I think we see that Sansa is not naturally snobby, and Arya isn't the quintessential tomboy either; but in these first chapters their qualities seem so pronounced because they're being set up in opposition to one another.

Even with regards to the wolves, Sansa feels a little superiority in the fact that Lady is so Lady-like :) whilst Nymeria is wild and unruly. It's sad that we never get to see Lady being a bad ass, because I think she would have been spectacular.

[Silverin]

ETA: What I found interesting in reading that first chapter is how much Arya and Sansa are fighting a battle of wills, and seem to define a lot of themselves in opposition to one another. Coming from a family where my sister and I bonded over our similarities, I found it revealing and amusing :)

They remind me of my cousin and I :D (I was more like Arya and she is like Sansa, what is funny even the haircolors match :D)

Anyway I was a tomboy and she was always really girly, I went to volleyball practice and was good at math, she had piano and ballett lessons and wore pretty clothes. And wether you believe it or not, she is my best friend!

Anyway time to time we too had really big childish arguments, but still got along extremly well and played a lot. My grandma always used to tell that she can see on us that we just had to look at each other and know what the other was thinking. I guess i miss that from the Sansa Arya interaction. Just because two sibling is that different it doesn't mean they can't get along, and can't understand each other and play a lot (I consider her my sister).

I have two brother who have really different personalities as well, my eldest brother is like a male Arya (they always tell us how we are so similar :)), and my other brother is quite, serious and nice, yet they get along well as well.

About how they define each other I do can relate to that. Although she is my best friend, I was still realy jealous at her, I felt i could never compare to her, and the more jealous I got the more tomboyish I behave, i started searching for something that I can be good too (sience and volleyball), but now I did come to peace at myself and accepted that I do love some of the girly things as well:D. I guess I can understand Sansa's fustration as well, although a lot of people say that Sansa is spoiled, I actually disagree, I think Ned spoiled Arya more (just like I think I was more spolied than my cousin, she always had to be perfectly mannered, her mother didn'T let her cut her hair, she always had to be a good girl etc etc etc, while I was free to run wild, and my father was even somewhat proud ot me because of that), so in Sansa's view she is the one who does everything she is supposed to yet her little sister gets off with wather she does by their father. That must be fustrating.

[brashcandy]

You made some good points, Silverin. Thanks for sharing a bit of your family rivalry :) It seems like the girls did have good times together playing as children, but by the time AGOT begins, their differences are becoming more noticeable and bothersome to both of them as it is preventing them from what they think they want most. Sansa wants to project genteel and ladylike manners, and Arya wants to run free and play with swords.

[Silverin]

You made some good points, Silverin. Thanks for sharing a bit of your family rivalry :) It seems like the girls did have good times together playing as children, but by the time AGOT begins, their differences are becoming more noticeable and bothersome to both of them as it is preventing them from what they think they want most. Sansa wants to project genteel and ladylike manners, and Arya wants to run free and play with swords.

Couldn't help, got a little off :)

But anyway maybe that is why my bigest wish for the two girl, is to meet up and be a friendly loving badass sister combo, that cannot be stopped :)

I don't even have any ship for them, just antiships (like no Sansa with LF or tyrion ).

I am a bit worried about the path of both sister is right now though.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Oh yay, I'm glad someone is doing a Sansa reread! Since she's my favorite PoV after Dany I'll be spending some time here I'm sure (well what little time I do have to post anymore). Given it's Brash and Rapsie I think I may have to provide some rare non-Hound fangirl perspective... Ya know, just to keep things fair. ;)

Sansa's first chapters are interesting to me mostly because of they way that I feel GRRM is trying to manipulate our feelings about certain characters.

For example, Arya and Jon are shown right away to be just wayyy too good at judging people and just generally checking every box for "cool fantasy hero." And each of them are given convenient foils to contrast with (Sansa and Robb/Theon respectively). This is so that they can be carefully deconstructed later (well, Arya at least... Jon not as much). It's quite interesting as we find out much later that Jon's opinions of the "Baratheon" kids, Tyrion, and Jaime are pretty much wrong. Also, Arya and Jon think that Tommen is stupid and fat and laugh when Bran beats him (not to mention Myrcella who both Jon and Arya think is not worth giving the time of day for the crimes of smiling at Robb and being friends with Sansa). Not exactly heroic behavior especially considering how we find out later how adorable and sweet Tommen is, and how clever and brave Myrcella is.

Sansa meanwhile is being constructed (to be later magnificently deconstructed) as the vapid brainless cheerleader type who doesn't "understand" the uber cool awesome perfect tomboy Arya. GRRM does this by literally making Sansa the opposite of Arya in every conceivable way after previously establishing Arya as "the cool tomboy heroine". Every character that Arya and Jon have previously mistrusted, Sansa likes. Every character that Sansa mistrusts, it's because they are ugly or scary looking. Every interest Arya has, Sansa echews, and vice-versa.

What's important though, is that GRRM constructs the narrative so that Jon and Arya appear to be generally right, whereas Sansa appears to be generally wrong about things. Hence in the wolf scene, we are on Arya's side and not Sansa upon the first read, not reflecting on the fact that all parties here have been quite unreasonable. GRRM is careful not to explicitly reveal how nuanced and difficult Sansa's position in the conflict really is. It's only upon close reading that most readers see how Sansa is being forced to choose to support Joffery or Arya, and in fact chooses to support neither. I wanted to discuss this here since it's a Ned chapter and otherwise it would be missed in the discussion.

So, is sansa vapid and stupid? In some ways she is still extermely naive (like father like daughter), and willingly blinds herself to uncomfortable truths (Joffery's reaction to her is quickly glossed over). This is true even rereading with a pro-Sansa stance (as all my rereads have been, in contrast to my original read). However what's interesting is that about 90% of what I remember bothering me about Sansa upon the original read are in fact things that are totally fine and that I was only bothered due to the fact that I think GRRM constructed the narrative for us to be "on Arya's side." E.g. Liking Myrcella is not a crime and in fact was probably wise - Myrcella could have been a great friend to Sansa if she'd had the opportunity. Preferring to hang out with a Princess and Queen and learn about King's Landing is not somehow worse than playing in the river with a common boy. Fearing the Hound and Illyn Payne was in my opinion not unwarrented at all - both men are potentially cruel and dangerous. Etc.

[Starbird]

Yup! I wonder if it partly explains why Sansa is snobby and Arya is an "everybody" kinda girl. On the one hand, Sansa absolutely thinks it's distasteful that Arya runs around with someone like the Butcher's boy, and Arya seems to be at be pains to prove that she can rough it with anyone. Both their likes and dislikes are then further entrenched by being so at odds with one another. Later on, I think we see that Sansa is not naturally snobby, and Arya isn't the quintessential tomboy either

Poor Sansa. I wouldn't say she was ever a snob. She was just taught to support the system in which she lived and was raised. She was groomed to be a pleaser, and to represent her House with poise and grace. Sansa got nothing but positive reinforcement for her efforts (her sewing, etc.) whereas Arya's told she's got the hands of a blacksmith. It's interesting that Arya and Sansa both have a gift for talking to people. Sansa uses her talents on members of her class while Arya doesn't. I think the 'snob' title is inflicted on Sansa by readers because most readers don't identify with being royalty, or of an extremely elevated social eschelon, which Sansa is. As such, Sansa would not talk to 'us' and Arya would, so Arya's likeable and Sansa's a snob. Maybe? Further, Sansa enjoys things that modern readers would find tedious (hours of sewing, hours of polite chit-chat in a windowless wheelhouse with the queen and princess, close observance of etiquette, etc.) We live in a relaxed society. Arya's relaxed in the extreme (you don't just blow off an invitation from the queen) so she's more relate-able and, as a result, more likable. I don't blame Sansa for being scandalized by her sister's behavior. It reflects poorly on Sansa and all of the Starks. (It's a lucky thing for Arya that the day's plans were cancelled. Had she not shown up, her sister and Septa Mordane would have had to make excuses for her, and it would have reflected poorly on Ned as well. On the other hand, maybe he would have started putting his foot down - but it's a moot point.)

If Sansa is less snobby now, it's because she's become disenfranchised with the system.

[Im no Ser]

When we last see Sansa in AFFC, she is, in my opinion, standing on the edge of a moral precipice. On one hand, she is repulsed by Baelish's sexual attentions; and on the other, she trusts him as a protector; and is agreeing with his direction of a potentially dangerous treatment for her helpless young cousin. I don't think that Sansa has realized, when she is arguing with the Maester, that the sweetsleep could kill Robert; she might think (have been told by Littlefinger, or even deceived herself into believing) that they could just use the sweetsleep to get the kid down the mountain so he wouldn't have to be carried the whole way and so be seen to be feeble. But if Sansa continues to acquiesce and abet the administration of the sweetsleep to Robert, she will cross an important moral line.

Sweetrobin going down the mountain on meds wasn't an option - once he's perceived as that ill by his bannermen it is in effect a death warrant - and Sansa's recognition of this is evidence of her increased political savvy. The maester is (properly) seeing only a child and a patient, but Sansa grasps the bigger picture.

I can certainly understand Sansa's decision not to reveal herself to Bronze Yohn. Why should she trust him, or any Arryn vassal, over Petyr? Where were they when Joffrey's Kingsguard was beating her, or when she was forced to marry Tyrion Lannister? It was Petyr who delivered Sansa from King's Landing. At least that might be how Sansa sees things.

Plus she is smart enough to know that if she's going to betray Peytr she'd better have all contingencies accounted for. She's eyeing the situation closely enough to deduce one of the Lords Declarant is a LF plant, so she knows there are significant risks.

And what would have happened if she revealed her identity to Royce? She's effectively wanted for regicide in King's Landing. It's reasonably likely that Royce tells the Lannisters to discredit/destroy LF. Does LF let them leave the Eyrie if she reveals herself, or is everyone going out the moon door? Even with the superior knowledge we as readers have to Sansa these answers aren't obvious; to her it must have seemed like a preposterously huge risk.

[headtrip_honey]

FYI, in case anyone's interested, we're doing a Sansa/Hound re-read over on LJ (in my sig) as well. I'm sure there'll be some crossover in discussion, but I just wanted to put that out there!

[brashcandy]

Oh yay, I'm glad someone is doing a Sansa reread! Since she's my favorite PoV after Dany I'll be spending some time here I'm sure (well what little time I do have to post anymore). Given it's Brash and Rapsie I think I may have to provide some rare non-Hound fangirl perspective... Ya know, just to keep things fair. ;)

Damn you :P

Sansa's first chapters are interesting to me mostly because of they way that I feel GRRM is trying to manipulate our feelings about certain characters.

For example, Arya and Jon are shown right away to be just wayyy too good at judging people and just generally checking every box for "cool fantasy hero." And each of them are given convenient foils to contrast with (Sansa and Robb/Theon respectively). This is so that they can be carefully deconstructed later (well, Arya at least... Jon not as much). It's quite interesting as we find out much later that Jon's opinions of the "Baratheon" kids, Tyrion, and Jaime are pretty much wrong. Also, Arya and Jon think that Tommen is stupid and fat and laugh when Bran beats him (not to mention Myrcella who both Jon and Arya think is not worth giving the time of day for the crimes of smiling at Robb and being friends with Sansa). Not exactly heroic behavior especially considering how we find out later how adorable and sweet Tommen is, and how clever and brave Myrcella is.

It definitely highlights the danger of judging by appearances, even when it's being done by the "cool, fantasy heroes" of the tale. I agree that his assessment of Myrcella was wrong in particular, but why do you think so of Jaime? He judges purely on looks though, if this is what you mean, thinking that he looks much more kingly than Robert. Obviously we come to learn that Jaime can be very treacherous.

Sansa meanwhile is being constructed (to be later magnificently deconstructed) as the vapid brainless cheerleader type who doesn't "understand" the uber cool awesome perfect tomboy Arya. GRRM does this by literally making Sansa the opposite of Arya in every conceivable way after previously establishing Arya as "the cool tomboy heroine". Every character that Arya and Jon have previously mistrusted, Sansa likes. Every character that Sansa mistrusts, it's because they are ugly or scary looking. Every interest Arya has, Sansa echews, and vice-versa.

What's important though, is that GRRM constructs the narrative so that Jon and Arya appear to be generally right, whereas Sansa appears to be generally wrong about things. Hence in the wolf scene, we are on Arya's side and not Sansa upon the first read, not reflecting on the fact that all parties here have been quite unreasonable. GRRM is careful not to explicitly reveal how nuanced and difficult Sansa's position in the conflict really is. It's only upon close reading that most readers see how Sansa is being forced to choose to support Joffery or Arya, and in fact chooses to support neither. I wanted to discuss this here since it's a Ned chapter and otherwise it would be missed in the discussion.

Completely agree here on the deliberate portrayal of Sansa vs. Arya, and it just becomes more blatant and irritating on reread, but we do know it's deconstructed later as you noted.

With regard to the chapters, some interesting things do happen concerning Sansa in other character (Ned/Tyrion mostly) POVs so I do imagine we'll have to sometimes provide a brief analysis of what happens in those ones as well to kinda inform our reading of the specific Sansa chapters. Ned's upcoming one is a biggie, so I suspect Rapsie will mention a little of it in her upcoming discussion.

So, is sansa vapid and stupid? In some ways she is still extermely naive (like father like daughter), and willingly blinds herself to uncomfortable truths (Joffery's reaction to her is quickly glossed over). This is true even rereading with a pro-Sansa stance (as all my rereads have been, in contrast to my original read). However what's interesting is that about 90% of what I remember bothering me about Sansa upon the original read are in fact things that are totally fine and that I was only bothered due to the fact that I think GRRM constructed the narrative for us to be "on Arya's side." E.g. Liking Myrcella is not a crime and in fact was probably wise - Myrcella could have been a great friend to Sansa if she'd had the opportunity. Preferring to hang out with a Princess and Queen and learn about King's Landing is not somehow worse than playing in the river with a common boy. Fearing the Hound and Illyn Payne was in my opinion not unwarrented at all - both men are potentially cruel and dangerous. Etc.

Definitely not vapid and stupid. In fact in this chapter she impresses me more with her charm and tact in addressing Renly and Barristan, than Arya does with her wild attack on Joffrey. I agree on the Hound and Payne being dangerous types, but I just wanted to add that she finds Payne infinitely more scary than the Hound. ;)

[LuisDantas]

Except she knows what LF wants. As disgusting as he is, she's safer playing him than risking an unknown figure at this point.

I sincerely doubt it. What she knows of Petyr is that he is treacherous, dangerous, and a skilled manipulator. Getting away from him should be her main concern now, particularly after she saw how he treated his own accomplices, namely Dontos and Lyssa.

[brashcandy]

I sincerely doubt it. What she knows of Petyr is that he is treacherous, dangerous, and a skilled manipulator. Getting away from him should be her main concern now, particularly after she saw how he treated his own accomplices, namely Dontos and Lyssa.

But exactly how is she supposed to accomplish this, Luis? She's basically at his mercy, and has to bide her time.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Damn you :P

:fencing:

Mwahaha... Someone's got to provide some balance!

It definitely highlights the danger of judging by appearances, even when it's being done by the "cool, fantasy heroes" of the tale. I agree that his assessment of Myrcella was wrong in particular, but why do you think so of Jaime? He judges purely on looks though, if this is what you mean, thinking that he looks much more kingly than Robert. Obviously we come to learn that Jaime can be very treacherous.

Well IIRC Jon is quite admiring of Jaime, saying that he seems to be everything a king should be, and that this assessment is based entirely on his appearance. And then directly after he contrasts Tyrion to Jaime, saying he is everything his brother is not (i.e. not kingly, weak, ugly, etc). Yet Jon is rarely singled out by readers as being particularly shallow, whereas Sansa is constantly berated for it. Quite the opposite, many readers think Jon is extremely good judge of character because of this scene, Despite the fact that we find out later that the majority of his opinions are wrong. The only ones that seem to be close to right are Joffery, Cersei, and Robert. I believe that GRRM wrote the scene and constructed the character quite carefully to make it seem as if Jon was right - obviously Jon himself thinks he's right - even though he's mostly wrong.

Jaime is a rather odd case because you can argue either way about whether he's a totally awful person or just sort of lazy and reckless yet strangely idealistic - I personally love the character for this reason. However "kingly" Jaime is not. He would neither want to be a king nor would he be any good at it if he were.

Completely agree here on the deliberate portrayal of Sansa vs. Arya, and it just becomes more blatant and irritating on reread, but we do know it's deconstructed later as you noted.

I found myself rolling my eyes at Jon a lot on my first reread, and Arya on my second (whereas it was Sansa who got my contempt on my first read). It's just frustrating amazing how good GRRM is at twisting our feelings! He knows his tropes inside and out, and how to use that to manipulate readers.

Definitely not vapid and stupid. In fact in this chapter she impresses me more with her charm and tact in addressing Renly and Barristan, than Arya does with her wild attack on Joffrey.

Yeah I agree of course she's not actually vapid and stupid. Though what jumped out at me with the Renly / Barristan thing is that everyone basically reacts like "awww.. look at the cute little girl, she thinks she's clever" *pat head*. That is, Sansa is condescended to by everyone in this scene - it's so very clear by their reactions how glaring Sansa's naivete and "girlishness" is to an outsider. Specifically where and when laughter occurs in the scene. Yes, Sansa's responses to Barristan and Renly show some knowledge of who is who, but in really her courtesies are adorably transparent - almost laughably so - to the experienced players surrounding her (as both the Hound and LF later point out to her).