From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

While I understand that it was Cersei that actually ordered the death of a dire wolf as punishment for the damage inflicted on her son, the only reason she had any grounds to demand such a thing was because Sansa did not tell the truth when asked about what happened on the riverbank

Here's the thing. You say yourself here that Cersei demanded the death of a direwolf as punishment for a wolf attacking her son. Regardless of whether Robert believes Arya or Joffery, it is still the case that a wolf mauled the crown prince. The only difference is the motive. Cersei's argument was that Dire Wolves are dangerous, and she has proof of that right in front of her (Joff's arm). Hence the motive is irrelevant.

She does not tell the truth in order to protect her future husband, a boy that very clearly was the aggressor in the riverbank 'encounter', who most likely was going severely injure Mycah. I believe his line was "I wont hurt him...much", a drunken boy wielding a sword against a clearly submissive boy, I imagine that the encounter would have left Mycah at the very least scarred (we saw that much), more likely seriously injured or maimed, or even perhaps dead.

If you look at Sansa's perspective, she can A.) say that Arya's story is true - e.g. take Arya's side, B.) say that Joffery's story is true - e.g. take Joff's side or C.) say nothing. If she does A or B she increases enmity between the Royal family and the Stark family. She doens't want that, because she wants everyone to get along. C is the least likely to hurt anyone and the most likely to lead to the most good feeling between everyone, since as Robert has said, his plan is to discipline Joffery himself while Ned takes care of Arya.

I was very frustrated in reading your post in regards to how Arya acted, indicating that she somehow overreacted in protecting Mycah, and was somehow to blame for the incident. Drunken Joffery was the aggressor at every stage in this encounter until he was disarmed by Nymeria, even going so far as to attack a younger girl armed with a stick, himself armed with a sword.

Arya's mistake was not controlling Nymeria better. Nymeria could easily have stopped Joffery without biting him. I do sympathize with Ayra and obviously Joffery was the villain here.

The Butchers boy Mycah might still be alive (knowing Joffrey, I think he would have ended up dead anyway, but it would have been less blood on the Hounds hands ).

Unless there are cell phones in Westeros, this isn't possible. The hound has already killed Mycah at the time of the hearing (he returns with Mycah's body just as Ned is leaving the tent).

her fate in future books as a passive bird-pawn that will simply do whatever people tell her to do.

She's in survival mode during acok-asos and hence she has to appear to be tame, but all along she's planning her escape. Yes, she needs help (from LF and Dontos) to accomplish that, but still she does an excellent job of appearing to be quite meek while at the same time actually playing the long game.

she was obviously the least "Starky" of the other children/dire wolf combos, if for no other reason than she was not truthful in this scenario in order to protect her future husband. She needed a wristband that said "WWNSD" (what would Ned Stark do)

Ned was not truthful during his confession in order to protect his daughters. So she did very well at doing what Ned would do.

I'm confused by the idea of "Starkyness" that a lot of posters seem to have. To me it doens't seem to match up with any reality, given how different allt he Starks we know actually are. Compare Bran, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Brandon the elder, and Ned for some quite "Stark" differences. There is no one Stark personality.

In any case Sansa has her badass moments - she has a veneer of politeness but underneath she has some raw strength. She's a bamf when she tells Joff "maybe he'll (Robb) bring me yours." And when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion Lannister after being forced to marry him, I was like "Hell yeah, Lady of Winterfell biotch". And when she builds Snow Winterfell... so awesome. She also shows more inner strength than her age would imply on a number of occasions - helping people during the Battle of the Blackwater, etc.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

"Sansa: Your grace, Joff was tormenting the butcher's boy, and Arya jumped in to defend him, hitting Joff so hard the back of his head was bloody. He retaliated, they kept fighting, until Nymeria jumped in and bit his arm.

Robert: I see, thank you Sansa. Well, Ned, it looks like my son was a bit of a shit. I'll deal with him if you deal with her.

Cersei: What of the wolf that nearly tore your son's arm off?"

I could simply add a line: Ned: The wolf was protecting my daughter from your sword wielding son, who else present at the riverbanks could have protected her? I believe it is the responsibility of your Hound to do the same for Joffrey is it not?"

Or some such thing, obviously the nature of the story is not a happy one for the Starks, so Lady dying was required to allow the rest of the events that unfold in the books, but that does not change the argument that it was Sansa's decision NOT to tell the truth that caused her Lady's life to be so easily offered up as punitive measures. If the wolves are a problem, why not simply send them back to Winterfell? No it was because everyone thought that Joffrey was just walking along and was assaulted by the "wolf girl" and her wolf, well we cant simply kill Arya, but the wolf....

No one believed Joffery in that room except for Cersei. Ned actually knew Arya was telling the truth because Sansa had confessed to him earlier, and he could very well have said exactly what you posted even if Sansa said she couldn't remember. Yet, he did not. Why didn't he?? At this point he trusted Robert. He thought Robert would do justice, and that his word was final. Instead, Robert's weakness allowed him to give into Cersei's quite ridiculous request to kill Lady in place of Nymeria.

There's no reason whatsoever that Lady should not have been sent back to Winterfell regardless of where culpability truly lay. Even if they believed Joffery regarding Nymeria, everyone in that room knew that Lady was innocent. Guilt was not part of the equation when it came to her punishment. Cersei's bloodlust and Robert's weakness were the causes.

[David Selig]

IIRC Sansa and Arya didn't even have personal servants on the road to KL and while they were there before Ned's death, pretty weird considering their father is Lord of half the realm. The poor Septa Mordane was definitely given too much responsibility - she was their only teacher apart from Syrio and also a chaperon. It's strange the girls had no other teachers all those months in KL, especially for Sansa. Why not get her a music teacher for example. What was she doing all day anyway apart from daydreaming about Joffrey and tournaments ? It certainly doesn't seem that the Septa had much left to teach her at this point. Sansa was engaged to become a Queen, she needed someone to teach her about real politics. But Ned didn't even try either to do it or to find someone to teach her the basics.

[brashcandy]

@Brashcandy: Why do you think he would not have maimed or killed Mycah? In the course of the books I dont think there is ever a single shred of evidence that Joffrey has empathy towards anyone except perhaps his mother. And even once he became King, he began to not even listen to her anymore. What thought or concept would have stopped him from seriously hurting/killing Mycah?

I also do not understand how her not "remembering" could be the best solution for a nasty problem. It certainly was not the 'best solution' for Lady or Mycah. Her telling the truth could have opened the eyes of others around Joffrey to how much of a scumbag he is, at the very least. And if you guys are correct and Lady/Mycah were going to die anyway, why not get the truth out there, would that not still be a better solution that simply saying "I dont remember", which helps no one but the Sociopathic Joffrey?

At the end of the day, Joffrey is a coward. Yes, a dangerous sadist, but a coward as well. He enjoys picking on those he thinks he can control and abuse, so I'm not denying that a sword in his hand pointed at Mycah wasn't an alarming thing. However, in this particular circumstance, I think he wanted to show off to Sansa, act like somehow he was this great knight, and basically humiliate Mycah. I think he would have been aware of the consequences of going too far though, and would have stopped after a few more taunts and jibes.

With regards to Sansa and telling the truth, it wouldn't have mattered truly. A lot of those in attendance probably knew Joff was scum already - his own father, the Hound, Renly, lots of the other soldiers probably - but it doesn't change the fact that he's the crown prince. And what could Sansa really say that would make people think badly of Joffrey even if they held him in esteem? That he had threatened the butcher's boy? Oooooh, naughty Joff! In most of these people's minds, Mycah is a non-entity, not worth even bothering about. Attacking Arya? Joff could simply counter by saying that Arya had attacked him first, which Sansa would have to admit was the truth. He could claim he was only toying with Mycah etc etc.

[headtrip_honey]

Regarding the Lady incident...

All Cersei had to say was, "Joff was beaten so badly his head was bloody, and the wolf savaged him. By the girl's own sister's testimony, she threw a rock at my son's head. Joff had a sword, but the girl has not a scratch on her, except those her butcher's boy gave her. Pray tell, which of the children was out of control? And what happens next time they argue? Will the wolf go for his throat? I want it dead."

[OnionAhaiReborn]

It's hard for me to read this part of the book and not admire Arya's bravery in this situation, defending her friend from Joffrey's horribleness while throwing the class implications to the wind and then standing in front of the King and Queen of Westeros and telling the truth. We don't have to condemn Sansa's lack of bravery here (which is understandable given her age), but I think we have to admire Arya's guts under the same circumstances. It's also worth noting that Sansa goes on to draw the wrong lesson out of this whole mess, blaming Arya for Lady's death and giving her the cold shoulder while in King's Landing. In my opinion, recognizing Sansa's mistakes and errors of judgement in GoT is what makes watching her growth into a wiser and savvier person in the next few books so interesting.

[childofsummer]

The lack of supervision was ridiculous, these children should not have been able to roam without someone following them at a safe distance at least. I don't know how Joffrey was allowed to simply leave the Hound behind, and anything could have happened to either Mycah or Arya on one of their jaunts through the countryside.

Agreed, in retrospect. I just don't think we have enough information to say whether or not, given the environment and the norms of the time, that Ned was necessarily unreasonable in his level of supervision. I'm more curious that Joff, the crown prince, was allowed to leave his bodyguard behind.

[1234567]

I could be mistaken but I assumed the wording of that statement put you into the category of people who believe she was not culpable (I could be wrong). While I understand that it was Cersei that actually ordered the death of a dire wolf as punishment for the damage inflicted on her son, the only reason she had any grounds to demand such a thing was because Sansa did not tell the truth when asked about what happened on the riverbank.

Had Sansa recounted the events in an accurate manner to the 'tribunal' meeting, Joffrey would have clearly been shown to be in the wrong. Any demands by Cersei would have much less foundation, and could simply be ignored by the King. The Butchers boy Mycah might still be alive (knowing Joffrey, I think he would have ended up dead anyway, but it would have been less blood on the Hounds hands <maybe, he was ever the loyal dog>).

There will be more about this in the discussion of the Ned/Sansa chapter on Thursday, however one point I'd like to make is that Arya attacked Joff. Joff did not attack her. True she was defending Mycah, but Joff was the crown prince. In the world of Westeros that means something. Even Oberyn talks about people having hands cut off for striking Princes.

In reference to your highlighted point, I think not. What would have been shown is a third version of events which was somewhere in between Arya's and Joff's. Cersei could equally have said she was protecting her sister and things would have played out as they had. Also Cersei was determined to have a wolf skin either way: it wasn't about being right, it was about Lannister pride and Cersei getting one up on Robert. Also Cersei didn't want the direwolves there from the start. Anyway, more of that on Thursday!

[brashcandy]

It's hard for me to read this part of the book and not admire Arya's bravery in this situation, defending her friend from Joffrey's horribleness while throwing the class implications to the wind and then standing in front of the King and Queen of Westeros and telling the truth. We don't have to condemn Sansa's lack of bravery here (which is understandable given her age), but I think we have to admire Arya's guts under the same circumstances. It's also worth noting that Sansa goes on to draw the wrong lesson out of this whole mess, blaming Arya for Lady's death and giving her the cold shoulder while in King's Landing. In my opinion, recognizing Sansa's mistakes and errors of judgement in GoT is what makes watching her growth into a wiser and savvier person in the next few books so interesting.

I agree with the bolded part especially. I like Sansa and I do think she is unfairly blamed for somehow causing Lady's death, but that isn't to say that most of us don't realise that she makes mistakes in judgement concerning Cersei and Joffrey, and that her idealism and naivete placed her in a difficult situation for much of AGOT. In this first chapter I think we see the strengths and weaknesses of both Sansa and Arya and they both have a lot of growing up to do.

Agreed, in retrospect. I just don't think we have enough information to say whether or not, given the environment and the norms of the time, that Ned was necessarily unreasonable in his level of supervision. I'm more curious that Joff, the crown prince, was allowed to leave his bodyguard behind.

Yes, this is puzzling. It seems that everyone lost their normal mode of behaviour on the road, and things were allowed to go unnoticed. I suppose from the Hound's perspective he might have thought no harm could come to Joff going off with a girl that clearly worshipped him.

[voodooqueen126]

I do wish that Sansa had wised up to Joff’s true nature in this chapter, especially after he lashes out when she tries to comfort him, but I can see why that would not be a realistic expectation. She’s so completely enraptured with the idea of him as her perfect Prince that his words probably didn’t do more than make her feel a bit hurt at the time.

This reminds me again that Sansa is a rationalist, whilst Arya is an empiricist.

The way Sansa acts throughout AGOT is completely rational, if you believe that princes and queens are honourable etc

[arya horsefaceless]

This reminds me again that Sansa is a rationalist, whilst Arya is an empiricist.

The way Sansa acts throughout AGOT is completely rational, if you believe that princes and queens are honourable etc

Exactly. Sansa had no reason to think Cersi would demand Lady die for Nymieria's crimes. Actually she acted with way more sense than Arya did, and Arya's my favorite character. Hell, if Arya was a member of any other family to call the Crown Prince a liar to everyones faces (true or untrue) usually results in owning less one head. Arya's boldness to say what she thinks to whomever she wants is what I love about her, but it's not the smart thing to do.

[Raksha the Demon]

This reminds me again that Sansa is a rationalist, whilst Arya is an empiricist.

The way Sansa acts throughout AGOT is completely rational, if you believe that princes and queens are honourable etc

Excellent point. The sad thing is, I would have thought the same thing if I were a noble-born eleven-year-old girl in Westeros; especially with Ned and Catelyn as my parents. I can see why Sansa would believe that Joffrey is her True Prince; that's something else I would have been delighted to believe, even without knowing said Prince, in her circumstances at the age of eleven.

I place some of the blame for the Mycah debacle on Ned and Catelyn. They allowed their older daughter, who they had to know would be a valuable marriage prize and very possibly the Lady of a great house one day, to grow up with pretty songs of chivalry as the core of her belief system. And then, after Ned seals the deal with Robert that will send their dreamy, romantic eleven-year-old daughter to marry a future king (whose mother comes from a house Ned distrusts), do he and Catelyn have some discussions with Sansa about the reality of the hornets' nest into which she will be thrust? Even after Catelyn gets the message from Lysa saying that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, do she and Ned reconsider bringing their little girls to King's Landing with Ned, a small force of guards, into the power of the Lannister queen and her Kingslayer brother? Ned could have promised to come back with Robert as Hand and send his daughters to join him in a year or two.

And then there's Arya. Her tomboy tendancies, frequent rudeness and rebellious streak, understandable in a modern child but not so customary in the daughter of a great house of Westeros, were indulged by both parents. Ned identified her with his beloved lost sister who died so young and tragically; and let her have her way more often than not. I think that Catelyn thought she could let Arya run a bit wild while she could, while she was so young, and planned to work harder to turn Arya into a Lady when Arya was a year or two older. Neither Ned nor Catelyn foresaw Jon Arryn's death or Robert's need of Ned to replace him, and the offer to unite their houses through Sansa and Joffrey. We know that the daughters of Northern nobility are often physically tougher and somewhat more self-sufficient than many of the Southern houses (except for Dorne, and where did that get poor Elia?). But one would think, at the age of nine, that Arya would have been taught better manners, and would have known that she had to spend some time with the tedious Lannisters, if only for the honor of her own House. And one would think that even when justifiably angry, Arya would not have physically attacked her sister in public. I don't blame Arya for having been rather over-indulged; her wildness probably saved her life; since, if she had meekly stayed a Lannister captive, she'd have been served up to Ramsay Bolton as a trophy bride on a silver platter, and he probably would have killed her.

If Sansa and Arya had been better prepared for their journey South, and reared in a generally more realistic fashion, the Mycah incident might have turned out differently. Joffrey was not yet quite the monster he was at the end of AGOT, when he had been crowned and was feeling pretty invincible because of it. He was a bratty boy trying to impress a pretty girl. He turned on Mycah by mistake, thinking that he would swoop in and punish the peasant brute who was bullying Joffrey's betrothed's little sister. If Sansa had the sense that she learned later at such great cost, she would have fluttered her eyelashes, told Joffrey what a wonderful prince he was to look out for her sister; but it was bratty Arya's fault, and Sansa would love him even more if he showed he could be merciful, like her father and the knights in the stories. If Arya had bowed her head and apologized, or at least kept quiet (and not attacked Joffrey), I do think Mycah would have survived, though probably with a cut or a scar. Joffrey still had his mother and father to answer to at that point, and total submission from the Stark girls, with adoring glances and flattery by Sansa, might have mitigated his viciousness. Arya's attack enraged and embarrassed Joffrey; and once he started pursuing her, to hurt or kill her, Nymeria's natural instinct kicked in; and what could have been, should have been, Joffey's introduction to Stark Sister Dynamics, became a terrible cycle with long-term consequences.

I can't say that Arya was utterly wrong to have attacked Joffrey; I would have wanted to stop him by any means possible had I been in her shoes, poor Mycah was in terrible danger through no fault of his own. But her attack was like the pouring of gasoline into a fire, with an explosion resulting; and an innocent boy and a wolf who had done no harm paying with their lives. Joffrey was most to blame, after him, Cersei for having raised him in Lannister arrogance (I would imagine that even Robert, if he had been in Joffrey's place, might have been willing to hear out Arya's explanation that she and Mycah were sparring, Mycah was not trying to hurt her; heck, a young Robert would have probably been amused and intrigued); and only then Arya, and Sansa, for not handling the situation better (though it might have been too much to expect of an eleven-year-old and nine-year-old).

I still cannot fathom why, after the sorry incident ended, Ned did not send both his daughters home with Lady's body. Why on earth would he want Sansa to marry a prince who was clearly a vicious young monster; whose mother the queen was a ruthless woman who cared less for innocence (that of Mycah, and of Lady, who didn't do anything wrong either except be a direwolf) than her own pride, and whose father could not control either of them? I would think that Ned would want to get his girls as far away from Cersei and Joffrey as he could; having had a first-rate lesson in Baratheon/Lannister Justice.

Of course, if Ned had sent the girls home, there wouldn't be as much of a story; or at least it might have been very different...

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Just a personal note with regard to the somewhat-popular opinion that Sansa was somehow stupid, or inexcusibly naive.

I was raised by Christian parents, in a very religious-intensive household that included church thrice a week. Now, please note that I am NOT SAYING Christians are the only nice people to grow up around, okay. It just so happened that I was fortunate enough to grow up in a church full of extremely kind, nice, supportive people, who were all like one huge family. There were very few divorces or incidents of infidelity, most of us kids who grew up together were fairly sheltered, and we were all raised believing that everyone was pretty much the same as the people we grew up around ...kind, honest, decent, giving, polite, etc.

What a shock the real world turned out to be.

Even now at 39, I find myself quite frequently expecting people to be better than they are, and extremely shocked when it turns out that I am very wrong. And I have had years and tons of life experience on Sansa to realize that not everyone is like the families I grew up with.

All Sansa has ever known is honor, justice, kindness, fairness, and a very narrow definition of how things are "supposed" to be. She honestly has no clue, before leaving Winterfell, that the bad guys in the stories exist too. IMO, she cannot be blamed for not being able to imagine/predict the things she does not know exist ...adulterous lying queens, cowardly cruel princes, men who would shed blood as soon as look at you. It is no wonder to me that she clings to her childish ideas as hard as she does. I am decades ahead of her, and I still refuse to believe that humanity is capable of some of the things that my rational brain knows it has done. When you are raised an idealist and then thrust into an imperfect world, it hurts. The psyche's natural inclination is to fight back and refuse to accept that everything you ever believed is a bunch of hogwash.

This has nothing to do with intelligence level. It is simply about emotional maturity, which one can hardly expect from a preteen girl. If she lived IRL, she would have daydreams of being Juliet, as I did at her age. She dreams of being Jonquil. This does not make her stupid. It makes her an idealist, and I for one hope she hangs onto a good deal of her idealism. Once you assimilate into the real world, a healthy dose of idealism is not the worst thing in the world to have.

[Lemon Cake]

This does not make her stupid. It makes her an idealist, and I for one hope she hangs onto a good deal of her idealism. Once you assimilate into the real world, a healthy dose of idealism is not the worst thing in the world to have.

I couldn't agree more. As much as I enjoy watching Sansa grow wiser and more politically savvy, and as much as I think she needs to do that to survive, I would be very sad if she completely lost her innate idealism, because I think she needs that too.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I couldn't agree more. As much as I enjoy watching Sansa grow wiser and more politically savvy, and as much as I think she needs to do that to survive, I would be very sad if she completely lost her innate idealism, because I think she needs that too.

Absolutely. It is the most beautiful part of her character, in my opinion, that she continually demonstrates throughout the story she has not lost that idealism. That she still believes her dreams could come true no matter how many horrible things she experiences.

Two moments in particular:

When she thinks she's going to get to marry Willas and have puppes in her lap at Highgarden!

Then of course when she builds snow Winterfell...

I hope that even when she has to arrange an "accident" for Littlefinger, that she will still maintain that side of herself. She will play the game, but only because she wants to create a better world, like she has always dreamed of.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Looks like a clear choice to me.

Really? Because Royce could turn her into the Lannisters where she would be swiftly executed. Maybe with a little actual rape first instead of LF's creepy come ons. Or dozens and dozens of other horrible things.

Sansa has been repeatedly punished for blindly trusting people. She's learned it can always get worse.

[Solaris]

I think we are all agreeing that in order for Sansa to have an interesting arc she needed to start off naive and trusting in the idealic Royals & Knights are all honorable.

I feel that she is being developed into Sansa 2.0. I think Sansa is going to become more like Cersei (the conniving side by using her assets, not the irrational OFF WITH THEIR HEADS type deal we have seen of late) mostly and scare the pants of the lot of us. Seriously, she is going to be a mash up of herself, LF and Cersei.

I feel we are already seeing that in aFfC with how she handles sweetrobin and to a point LF (very Cersei) and her innermonologue of biding her time (very LF) with her childlike dreaming, nerves and doubts mostly prevalent in her innermonologue e.g. the unkiss and nervously considering a reveal to Royce and her trepidation over leaving the Eyrie (very Sansa).

Sansa has been internalised and Alayne is displaying LF & Cersei charachteristics outwardly. The way she addresses the Eyrie staff she is outwardly in command of her self but internally she keeps collapsing and reminding herself she must be Alayne. This girl has substance, I don't know how she held her shit together for this long, honestly. I think she maybe cracking a little though and descending into I really am Alayne not Sansa. I think the Hound coming back will give her the opportunity and confidence to act, maybe off LF with that strangler she MUST still have............. ANYWAY I am rambling too far along!

Like many of you I started off really disgusted with her charachter especially when she ran off to dob on her father trying to get them the hell out of KL. In all honesty I still cannot reconcile how she trusted Cersei after the nut bag had Lady offed and Mycha killed and on a number of occasions Cersei was really scathing and nasty to her. Even her childlike idealisim should have had trouble with all that. Think about it, she was present there for the whole hearing and still blamed Arya for it all.

If all of this stuff didn't happen we wouldn't have a story though would we? That would be crap, it makes for excellent reading. I love a good emotional rollercoaster! I try not to think about what everyone should have done only because we know we wouldn't have a story.

BUT! I always thought Ned should have told Sansa WHY he wanted them returned to Winterfell but then the rest of Sansa's story wouldn't have happened and we wouldn't have had san/san and that would be crap. Crapper than a crap thing.

[Lemon Cake]

Really? Because Royce could turn her into the Lannisters where she would be swiftly executed. Maybe with a little actual rape first instead of LF's creepy come ons. Or dozens and dozens of other horrible things.

Sansa has been repeatedly punished for blindly trusting people. She's learned it can always get worse.

Exactly. From Sansa's point of view, on the surface Bronze Yohn may seem like a better option than Littlefinger, but she's had to learn the hard way that appearances can be deceiving. She's been burned badly in the past by trusting people who appeared (to her) to be good and trustworthy, so she's understandably wary about doing it again. With Littlefinger, she does at least have some idea of what he's like and where she stands with him. For all she knows, Bronze Yohn could turn out to be a monster of Ramsay Bolton proportions.

Admittedly, Sansa does trust Littlefinger more than I would like. But I think there are several indications in her thoughts that she has not been completely brainwashed by him and drunk the LF kool-aid. She's wary of him, and well aware that she needs to be careful. I think her decision to stay with Littlefinger, as opposed to pleading with Bronze Yohn for help, is not because she blindly trusts Littlefinger. I think it's more a case of "better the devil you know" for her.

ETA: Gah! Sorry, I did it again. I keep forgetting and talking about things that are waaaaayy in the future. I'll try to stop, really, I will. :blushing:

[Wolf Maid]

Sansa just comes off as an idiot to me in her first chapter. I don't understand how she, or anyone above the age of 5, could see someone cut another person's face, unprovoked, then try to kill her own sister and still think he is a good person. At the end of it, all she is worried about is her day being ruined, not the fact that her sister was almost killed or an innocent person was harmed. To me that just shows a lack of empathy. The only time she realized Joffrey was bad was when he was doing wrong to her.

I don't understand the arguments of Arya being at fault for not keeping Nymeria under control. The wolf was protecting her, it was doing its job. If she hadn't jumped in Arya would probably have been killed. Sansa sure wasn't doing anything to help her. It wasn't like she ripped him to pieces. She only bit his arm enough for him to drop the sword.

The fact that Sansa lies to protect him, and is still in love with him, after he almost killed her sister, is why I don't have much sympathy for this character. And no, her lies did not protect Arya because Arya never denied hitting Joffrey or throwing his sword in the river, which is the reason Renly bursted out laughing in the middle of her story. Also the fact that she continues to lie about Mycah, even after he is dead, telling people that he attacked Joffrey, when she knows that isn't the truth.

I don't actively wish harm on her character, as I do some others, however, I have a hard time feeling sympathy at her disappointment that others won't risks their lives to stick up for her or defend her against Joffrey. She expects things from others that she wasn't willing to give to her own sister.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Sansa just comes off as an idiot to me in her first chapter. I don't understand how she, or anyone above the age of 5, could see someone cut another person's face, unprovoked, then try to kill her own sister and still think he is a good person. At the end of it, all she is worried about is her day being ruined, not the fact that her sister was almost killed or an innocent person was harmed. To me that just shows a lack of empathy. The only time she realized Joffrey was bad was when he was doing wrong to her.

I disagree. The last we see of Sansa's POV, as far as this debacle goes, is when she is off to find help for Joff. There are several intervening days between that, and when Arya is found and Mycah killed. We have no idea whether she suffered anxiety and fear over where her sister was, if she was okay or even alive. And we also don't have her POV on what she thought of Joff's behavior.

To play Devil's Advocate a bit, let's play the whole scene from inside Sansa's head (something I frankly don't feel GRRM did a very good job of). You are a romantic preteen girl, walking along with your first major crush, trying to impress him and not make a fool of yourself, because you have absolutely no experience with boys. Suddenly you come upon your sister, whose behavior is usually an embarrassment (to an image-conscious preteen), doing the most unimaginably embarrassing thing possible: play-swordfighting with someone completely unsuitable in terms of station to be a playmate. You realize that Dreamboat next to you is seeing this too, and may be judging you accordingly.

Suddenly Dreamboat is coming to your sister's "defense," and a way for this to be salvaged comes to mind. Perhaps Dreamboat will see this as the boy's fault and not some colossal and possibly genetic failing. Then things are turned on their head again as your own sister commits a capital crime - she strikes the crown prince.

Now everything is REALLY upside down. You are concerned for Dreamboat, who after all only thought he was protecting your spazzy little sister. You are also terrified for said spazzy little sister, who is obviously completely oblivious that she has just committed a major crime, and promptly vanishes. You are left with Dreamboat, and behave in what you have been taught is the proper manner ...kind and helpful and solicitous. And suddenly Dreamboat turns into Nightmare and yells at you.

I would be absolutely baffled and confused as well. And three days of terror over your sister's fate and worry about the situation with Dreamboat does not help compose you any.

I believe that Sansa would have been worried about Arya, as well as angry with her, but we don't know for sure because that part is not told from her POV. I also disagree that Sansa's feelings about Joff do not begin to change as a result of this incident. She is markedly antsy about it the next time she has to speak to him, scared of how he will act. He does charm her back at that point, but IMO little things from then on show that she does not ever see him as Dreamboat again. Her focus instead turns to the idea of being princess and someday queen.

IMO Arya's hatred of the Lannisters after this, and Sansa's continued acceptance, is not the result of stupidity on her part. She started off from a position of being bedazzled by them; Arya started off utterly indifferent. Sansa, the idealist, is able to rationalize away the Lannisters' behavior, while Arya the realist sees it for what it is. It is simply a matter of coming from two totally different places and totally different personalities and goals, that the two end up at such opposite places in their view of what "really" happened. Sansa believes her future is with these people, so in her mind, there is no choice but to blame Arya and her father for the whole thing. It certainly will not help her betrothal (which I honestly think it never even crossed her mind could be broken) for her to hate her betrothed or his family.