From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa

[LuisDantas]

Really? Because Royce could turn her into the Lannisters where she would be swiftly executed. Maybe with a little actual rape first instead of LF's creepy come ons. Or dozens and dozens of other horrible things.

Sansa has been repeatedly punished for blindly trusting people. She's learned it can always get worse.

Again, I must beg to differ. She knows for a fact that Petyr Baelish corrupted and then betrayed and killed Dontos and Lyssa. She heard from his own mouth that he plans to use her to inherit the North. She knows that he is counting on Robin's death to conquer the Vale.

How low exactly must he stoop before she decides that the devil that she does not know is worth a shot?

[headtrip_honey]

@LadyoftheNorth

Very insightful!

Also, I would add, Sansa mentally blames Cersei for Lady as well, so she isn't completely oblivious. And while many say Sansa was an idiot for trusting Cersei after that...she really didn't. She only went to Cersei (re: telling her Ned's plans) because the King scared her. The King was her initial plan, but she was afraid he would be loud and drunk. And she was just an 11 year old girl. Clearly a woman would be less intimidating.

[headtrip_honey]

Again, I must beg to differ. She knows for a fact that Petyr Baelish corrupted and then betrayed and killed Dontos after Dontos planned to sell her for 10,000 dragons and Lyssa after Lysa had tried to murder Sansa. She heard from his own mouth that he plans to use her to inherit the North. She knows that he is counting on Robin's death to conquer the Vale.

How low exactly must he stoop before she decides that the devil that she does not know is worth a shot?

FTFY

[LuisDantas]

So you are saying that she failed to notice that Petyr was the instigator in either or both instances?

Really?

I don't think she is quite that naive. Not anymore.

[headtrip_honey]

So you are saying that she failed to notice that Petyr was the instigator in either or both instances?

Really?

I don't think she is quite that naive. Not anymore.

He was definitely the instigator in the Dontos matter, but as for Lysa...Lysa had Sansa dangling near the edge of the Moon Door when he interceded. He was not the instigator there, although it was his kiss that made Lysa go nuts.

[The Mother of The Others]

Was trying to figure out a scenario in which she becomes queen but also pulls one over on LF. Cuz mostly you'd need littlefinger to make it happen, like those 7 year old pageant girls have pageant moms with all the drive and knowhow to push the deal through so the tiara ends up on their girl's head. (to arrange the betrothal, in this case). Maybe the Fish (or that other guy who'll know Sansa on sight) can be used as a secret messenger to go behind LF's back and get word to Aegon's camp secretly that Sansa offers her hand, along with the upper half of the seven kingdoms, to the man who would rid them all of Cercei. But then what lesser scheme would LF be holding on to? Because doesn't he usually dream bigger and better than everybody else? So for him to suddenly have the inferior ambition of just grabbing Harry to lock up the Vale.... that's kind of fishy sounding. (But the above plan would allow the Fish to strike back in a very meaningful way against his enemies even without an army of his own, so it's got that going for it.)

[Starbird]

Again, I must beg to differ. She knows for a fact that Petyr Baelish corrupted and then betrayed and killed Dontos and Lyssa. She heard from his own mouth that he plans to use her to inherit the North. She knows that he is counting on Robin's death to conquer the Vale.

How low exactly must he stoop before she decides that the devil that she does not know is worth a shot?

So, do you think she should run now and leave Robyn to deal with LF on his own? Or hang around and try to prevent her cousin's death? Leave and take Robyn with her? What do you think her best course of action is?

[chavalah]

Been lurking for a little while, but I thought what better place to jump in than with a reread on Sansa, my favorite character? So often is Sansa polarized or pitted against Arya in a contest of "good/bad sister." I feel like, throughout the series, GRRM wrote their journeys to be quite similar. There are a lot of external/situational and topical personality differences, but underneath it all, I think they're largely the same. They both start the story as naive and unequipped to handle new realities at King's Landing, and currently they both feel trapped and resigned in their respective states as fugitives. They've both given up their names as well, which is something that Bran, for example, hasn't done.

Personally, I think this chapter exemplifies Arya's naivete more than Sansa's (though hers will come soon.) Arya's used to running wild at Winterfell, for getting dirty, riding horses, tearing clothing, even when, presumably, her mother and septa aren't pleased about it. That behavior hasn't been curbed, and Arya makes no effort to act in the "proper" manner with people who aren't her family, the Lannisters et. al. Even Ned, in a later chapter, explains to her why she needs to change. (I wish he'd been more forthcoming with Sansa as well, alas.)

We have come to a dark dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience...at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter.

Arya attacked Joffrey because she was used to Winterfell. In Winterfell, Joff would have been properly chastised for bullying the butcher's boy (though Arya may also have been chastised for getting involved.) Standing up for Mycah was the "honorable" thing to do...but honor is not always wise. (Personally, I'm in the camp that Joffrey was too much of a coward to kill a boy on his own before he was king/knew there'd be no consequences for him, but that's neither here nor there.) Ned, Sansa and Arya are all punished for doing the "honorable" thing where the Lannisters have the power.

Sansa is a young girl growing up to enjoy the things that are expected of her--royal carriage rides, being betrothed, "loving" her betrothed on the basis of the songs she reveres, which is probably her most naive attribute in this chapter, but, like Arya, the mistake of a child who does not understand the world outside her own door. This entire chapter was about Sansa stepping out of her comfort zone-- a completely unescorted day with Joffrey in foreign territory, more wine than she was used to, etc. From the moment she hears the slaps of Arya and Mycah's wooden sticks she wants to go back. Other than Arya being being "unruly," she's unused to the situation in front of her and frightened when Joff draws Mycah's blood. She does what she's used to; she stays out of it. For all intents and purposes, even if she knew how the fight started, it all went down pretty fast. I think her line about "stop it, both of you, you're spoiling it!" shows how little she understands the situation. At Winterfell she's used to Arya being "willful" and maybe her brothers rough-housing, but nothing so serious. She just wants everyone to stop and act with civility, as she enjoys/ has been taught (and as Ned, ultimately, seems to agree with.)

When she told the king she didn't remember who started the fight, I think this was her way of continuing to remain neutral in the hopes that the problem would just go away (or, perhaps, it could be the start of her repressing certain memories.) There's no way she could have guessed that Lady would be killed; that's not how Ned would have handled the situation, since he spoke out against it, especially. Sansa losing Lady was a travesty, even worse of one than most readers may have guessed in aGoT. Grieving the loss of this very important animal she turned to blaming Arya over Cersei. Why? Because it was easier. She was still engaged to Joff, expecting to live with him in King's Landing for most of her life. Quite a long time to harbor bitterness against her good mother, who has no reason to take that kindly. Arya and Sansa, on the other hand, have always fought, and yet they've always had someone like Ned or Septa Mordane reminding them at the end of the day that they're sisters. I imagine there will be more details about this in future reread chapters; looking forward to it!

[LuisDantas]

So, do you think she should run now and leave Robyn to deal with LF on his own?

No. She should realize that the Lords Declarant are in the right and support them. She was, after all, witnessing their requests for taking Robin away from Petyr.

Or hang around and try to prevent her cousin's death? Leave and take Robyn with her? What do you think her best course of action is?

Asking for Lord Yohn Royce's protection, telling him (and the other Lords) that Petyr is a dangerous man who directly caused Lysa's death, revealing that he framed the singer, and bidding her time until she found out if it was safe to reveal that she was Sansa Stark as well.

Sure, that is terribly risky. But remaining in the company of Petyr isn't at all risky. It is a certainty. The kind of certainty that no one should look forward to.

[LuisDantas]

He was definitely the instigator in the Dontos matter, but as for Lysa...Lysa had Sansa dangling near the edge of the Moon Door when he interceded. He was not the instigator there, although it was his kiss that made Lysa go nuts.

How is that not being the instigator?

[headtrip_honey]

How is that not being the instigator?

As far as we know, he didn't tell Lysa to try to kill Sansa. Likely he didn't intend her to see anything.

Trying to make out with a young girl ( :stillsick: ) does not make you responsible for someone trying to kill her.

[David Selig]

Asking for Lord Yohn Royce's protection, telling him (and the other Lords) that Petyr is a dangerous man who directly caused Lysa's death, revealing that he framed the singer, and bidding her time until she found out if it was safe to reveal that she was Sansa Stark as well.

This hiding her identity would last all of 15 minutes. If LF goes down due to Sansa's intervention, he'll reveal she's Sansa Stark, wanted for regidice, and she most likely ends executed soon.

On the other hand, for now LF has an interest to keep Sansa alive and in relative comfort. Sure he's a really dangerous struggling to control his obsession with her, but that's still better odds for survival than your scenario IMO.

Besides, the Lords Declarants came alone to the Eyrie and were at LF's mercy at this moment. Sure, arresting or killing them as a response to Sansa revealing the truth about Lisa to them would've led to huge problems for him, but he'd have done it, if that was the only way to save his skin.

[LuisDantas]

As far as we know, he didn't tell Lysa to try to kill Sansa. Likely he didn't intend her to see anything.

Trying to make out with a young girl ( :stillsick: ) does not make you responsible for someone trying to kill her.

It does when you are married to her unbalanced aunt and makes a point of letting her see you doing the deed. I don't believe that Petyr was caught unaware, and neither would Sansa as I see her.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Does no one share my belief that LF is in love? Pyter is a dick who must die for what he did to Ned. But he was in love with Cat and he is clearly in love with Sansa

[headtrip_honey]

Does no one share my belief that LF is in love? Pyter is a dick who must die for what he did to Ned. But he was in love with Cat and he is clearly in love with Sansa

He's "in love" (as much as you can call obsessive infatuation "love") with Cat, and is transferring his affections to Sansa. He has no real interest in her as a person, only in how she fills the role that Cat never did.

[headtrip_honey]

It does when you are married to her unbalanced aunt and makes a point of letting her see you doing the deed. I don't believe that Petyr was caught unaware, and neither would Sansa as I see her.

LF says that he hadn't planned for Lysa to die so soon, which tells me he did not anticipate what happened. Lysa's death forced him to gamble with the Lords Declarant, and while he's an adept gambler, it would have been easier with him manipulating Lysa.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

He's "in love" (as much as you can call obsessive infatuation "love") with Cat, and is transferring his affections to Sansa. He has no real interest in her as a person, only in how she fills the role that Cat never did.

I disagree, LF was such a herb in AGOT, but then in ACOK he seems kinda cool, and then in AFFC we find out he is behind everything, if he is in love, that would add so much debth!

[1234567]

The purpose of this thread is to do a reread of the character Sansa and examine each chapter chronologically. There may be times when other character's chapters (such as Ned's are relevant and will be covered) development and future events will be relevant to the thread (see the comparisons between the development of Sansa and Cersei).

I note a few of you are having a heated LF, Lysa , Moondoor discussion, which is wonderful, but can we maybe wait until we have got to the relevant chapter to discuss it, otherwise this will just become another Sansa discussion thread instead of a systematic analysis of her character arc.

By reviewing her character chapter by chapter, we may have better insights into her later actions.

[LuisDantas]

This hiding her identity would last all of 15 minutes. If LF goes down due to Sansa's intervention, he'll reveal she's Sansa Stark, wanted for regidice, and she most likely ends executed soon.

That is a very real possibility, yes. But not serious enough to make Petyr Baelish preferable.

Don't get me wrong. I can totally see how Sansa would be afraid to take the risk. It is understandable. What it isn't is wise. Or healthy.

On the other hand, for now LF has an interest to keep Sansa alive and in relative comfort. Sure he's a really dangerous struggling to control his obsession with her, but that's still better odds for survival than your scenario IMO.

I emphatically disagree. Besides, it is not a matter of survival alone. Existing under Littlefinger's auspices is a very miserable status quo. Helping in exposing him and perhaps bringing him down is far preferable, particularly given how little she has to lose at this point.

Never mind that accepting his "protection" also makes her an accomplice of the hazard to his cousin's mental and physical health. And her own.

Besides, the Lords Declarants came alone to the Eyrie and were at LF's mercy at this moment. Sure, arresting or killing them as a response to Sansa revealing the truth about Lisa to them would've led to huge problems for him, but he'd have done it, if that was the only way to save his skin.

I suppose it is too much to expect Sansa to have such a cool mind and a "resistance" mindset, but that still doesn't mean that it would be best for her not to.

[LuisDantas]

LF says that he hadn't planned for Lysa to die so soon, which tells me he did not anticipate what happened. Lysa's death forced him to gamble with the Lords Declarant, and while he's an adept gambler, it would have been easier with him manipulating Lysa.

To quote GRRM: would Littlefinger lie?