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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4


Angalin

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I don't think Asha wanted a new Kingsmoot to place either herself or Theon on the Seastone Chair.

In Dance (Wayward Bride page 342) she kisses Tris Botley who reminded her of Torgon coming home and calling the kingsmoot unlawful since he hadn't been there to make his claim. So it would make sense she was thinking of Theon except that a few pages earlier she had received Ramsay's letter sending her a piece of prince and had already heard that Ramsay had been flaying Theon. She couldn't possibly be so thrilled about the Torgon story if Theon was who she had in mind to actually sit the Seastone Chair. He's currently a prisoner and being flayed.

Nor, at least after losing Deepwood Motte, does she have herself in mind. In The King's Prize (page 553) she thinks, "Her father's lands would never be hers, no matter whom she married. The ironborn were not a forgiving people, and Asha had been defeated twice. Once at the kingsmoot by her uncle Euron, and again at Deepwood Motte by Stannis. More than enough to stamp her as unfit to rule."

It seems to me that Asha wants Theon only for the purpose of challenging the Kingsmoot because he was the legitimate heir and wasn't there to make his claim, but after the Kingsmoot is challenged I think she has someone else entirely in mind to put forth as a candidate other than anyone we have named so far. Not Theon, not herself, not Victarion.

What do you think?

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Theon is a Coward and will always be one. I bet when Stannis goes to cut off his head, Theon will tell him about Bran and Rickon to save his own ass. This dude fucked the starks over enough, but when his ass is on the line he will gladly sell-out the stark boys. Lets think about what kind of life that Bran or Rickon will live if held by stannis, they would be a hostage/ward just like Theon, but not treated as well as Theon because Ned and Stannis are not alike and Stannis will look down on them and be harsh, and if he can't find a use for them, he would just have them killed or do it himself.

I hope Stannis doesnt give him a chance to have any last words, just swings the sword and is done with it. We get rid of a useless character and Stannis gain respect with the Northern troops, its a win-win.

I seriously disagree with a lot of this post.

Stannis would never have Bran or Rickon killed. He would not do that just out of principle, let alone the fact that if he did have them killed, it would cost them the north. Stannis knows a son of Eddard Stark, is key to gaining the North. That's why Stannis was so persistent on getting Jon to be Lord of Winterfell (Stannis thought Jon was the last son of Eddard Stark).

Also Stannis wouldn't keep Branor Rickon as Hostages, and he would not treat them "harsh" nor would he "look down on them". First off, why would he "look down on them" or treat them "harsh"??? What has Bran or Rickon done, to cause Stannis to "treat them" like this?

Second off, Stannis would not do this in the first place, because it would not get him the support he needs from the North.

If anything, if Stannis finds out that Bran and Rickon are alive, he would leave them under the care of a loyal Northern Lord (most likely Manderly, once some light has been shed on everything Manderly has done to get Rickon).

Besides Stannis has much more important things to take care, instead of babysitting Bran and Rickon as his "Hostages/Wards". Like fighting the Others for example.

In short Stannis would leave Bran and Rickon in Winterfell, under Manderly's supervision(Manderly is to fat to do much else, so it's not like he will be expected to personally lead Manderly soldiers into battle), and Stannis would go back to fighting the real enemy at the Wall, the Others.

fyi Theon was heald as a Ward, to insure his father did not start another Rebellion, so I don't understand comparing Bran and Rickon as "Wards" to Stannis, as the same thing as Theon being a Ward to Ned. Bran and Rickons father is dead, and so is Robb, and Jon is a sworn Brother of The Nights Watch, so how can they be compared to Ned, who is going to Start a rebellion, if Stannis doesn't hold them as Wards??? The answer would be nobody. There is just absolutely no reason for Stannis to keep them as hostages, opposed to Stannis making one of them Lord of Winterfell to raise the North for Stannis. (Stannis is the Norths only friend, that is fighting for the North, it makes no sense that the North would fight against him at this point, because Stannis on the Iron Throne, is a lot better for the North then anyone else contending for the Crown at this point.)

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Not Asha, nor Theon or Euron so who is the candidate for the Seastone chair?

1, Victarion - but he is far away, can be elected someone who isn't there?

2, Damphair - he is a priest, so probably not, but who knows...

3, The Reader - the very unlikely candidate at the first look, but when you think about it.... Kingsmoot surprisingly enough isn't about swords but words and this guy can argue even with Euron, so maybe...

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If anything, if Stannis finds out that Bran and Rickon ate alive, he would leave them under the care of a loyal Northern Lord (most likely Manderly

If anything, if Stannis finds out that Manderly ate Bran and Rickon alive, he would most likely leave them under care of a loyal Northern Lord.

Rearranged for shits and giggles.

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I hope Stannis doesnt give him a chance to have any last words, just swings the sword and is done with it. We get rid of a useless character and Stannis gain respect with the Northern troops, its a win-win.

Theon, a useless character o_O

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3, The Reader - the very unlikely candidate at the first look, but when you think about it.... Kingsmoot surprisingly enough isn't about swords but words and this guy can argue even with Euron, so maybe...

Yes, the Ironborn could be pissed about the Old Way that got them nothing but loss of people (like Asha said), and seek peace at the hands of The Reader...

Ok, euh, no.

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He’s not sick; he’s injured.

Count no one in this series dead did you have seen the body — drawn, quartered, and burnt to ashes. Probably best to wait for the ashes to cool, too, and scattered across the waters.

I know, right? I just used the wrong word... What I wanted to say is that Manderly won't be able to direct his troops in any capacity because of his injury. So I think people are way optimistic in thinking that Manderly will come and help Stannis. Especially since Stannis has Manderly marked down as a traitor who had Davos executed. And who would tell him otherwise? Would they have any occasion to parley? Or would they attack each other on sight?

Someone called out my name, I heard it resonating in the dungeon where the heretics linger :devil:

I wonder who that was? :D But you did address a question I was also interested in. :)

Theon is now seen as the one who saved Arya. But he is also still seen as the one who killed Bran and Rickon. ETA Who will believe him if he says they are not dead? He can't prove they are not dead. Saving Arya for the North and getting her away from Bolton, therefore weakening Boltons claim, this could give him some goodwill, small change.

However, when it is known that Arya is a fake - and that Theon knew she is a fake, he looses this goodwill alltogether. More so if it is known that he actively participated in making the fake wedding possible. Theon was the one who gave Fake Arya away at the wedding at Winterfell.

Well, they don't seem to grant him any goodwill anyway, judging from the predicament he is in now, being chained to the Wall, Northmen demanding his death and all. He still participated in the wedding, whether she was the fake or the right Arya. The girl was certainly forced into participating as was Theon himself. He shows obvious signs that he was tortured badly, even though the Northerners will say that he deserved it. And while losing the genuine Arya would weaken Ramsay's claim, revealing that he was never married to her in the first place surely hurts him more. If Arya were genuine she's still his wife after all cos the marriage is still valid. Whether the girl desires the marriage, doesn't factor large in Westeros society.

That's why I think that Jeyne would be a valuable asset, because she can affirm that she is NOT Arya and that the Boltons tried to pull some trick to cheat the Starks off Winterfell. Granted, Theon is not really needed anymore in that scenario, he could just corroborate Jeyne's story.

I don't think he is afraid that they will kill him if the truth comes out. But he is probably very, very afraid if they chose to sent him back to Ramsay, as his punishment.

I don't think Theon is in any danger of being sent back to Ramsay. Who would do that? They surely wouldn't want to spare any men to send him to Winterfell. Hey, those men would be in danger of being subject to Ramsay's pleasures themselves. Besides, is it really more satisfactory to send a man off to be tortured in a far away place, as compared to having him executed in front of their very eyes? The Northerners demand that he is executed in front of the Old Gods, i.e. by the sword. If they had any interest in torturing Theon, they would agree to letting Theon burn.

But Theon might not be able to think straight where Ramsay is concerned. He might think that he could possibly be sent back. Anyway, even then, death is always the last exist he could take even if sent back to Ramsay. That's why I am very unconvinced that Theon is not afraid of death and why should he not be?

And maybe Theon is genuinely concerned what will happen to Jeyne if her true identity is known.

You probably have a very different reading of Theon. :D I think he's rather selfish and yes, a coward and while he won't actively hurt other people when it doesn't suit him, he won't go out of his way to help them either.

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Someone called out my name, I heard it resonating in the dungeon where the heretics linger :devil:

What I meant ... my thoughts are a bit fuzzy:

Theon is now seen as the one who saved Arya. But he is also still seen as the one who killed Bran and Rickon. ETA Who will believe him if he says they are not dead? He can't prove they are not dead.

Saving Arya for the North and getting her away from Bolton, therefore weakening Boltons claim, this could give him some goodwill, small change.

However, when it is known that Arya is a fake - and that Theon knew she is a fake, he looses this goodwill alltogether.

More so if it is known that he actively participated in making the fake wedding possible.

Theon was the one who gave Fake Arya away at the wedding at Winterfell.

I don't think he is afraid that they will kill him if the truth comes out.

But he is probably very, very afraid if they chose to sent him back to Ramsay, as his punishment.

And maybe Theon is genuinely concerned what will happen to Jeyne if her true identity is known.

I think Theon's reason for not telling the truth about Bran and Rickon is separate from his reason to keep Jeyne/Arya secret. Your explanation is still fuzzy to me.

Great chapter.

Personally I don't want Roose or Ramsey to come to an end until they have been publicly humiliated by being shown in front of gods and men that the Lannisters paid them false coin with the fake Arya. Theon, obviously, is the key here, unless Jon makes it back from the grave with all faculties in tact. And Theon will only expose Jeyne if he is assured of his and Jeyne's safety.

I want them humiliated, more than I want them executed.

Don't the Bolton's know that their Arya is a fake? I think its obvious from reading the text that they know she's not Arya, that's why they made a point of using Theon as her nearest next of kin in the wedding. It wasn't quite clear (to me at least) from your post that you understood that or not.

Theon is a Coward and will always be one. I bet when Stannis goes to cut off his head, Theon will tell him about Bran and Rickon to save his own ass. This dude fucked the starks over enough, but when his ass is on the line he will gladly sell-out the stark boys. Lets think about what kind of life that Bran or Rickon will live if held by stannis, they would be a hostage/ward just like Theon, but not treated as well as Theon because Ned and Stannis are not alike and Stannis will look down on them and be harsh, and if he can't find a use for them, he would just have them killed or do it himself.

I hope Stannis doesnt give him a chance to have any last words, just swings the sword and is done with it. We get rid of a useless character and Stannis gain respect with the Northern troops, its a win-win.

While I agree that Theon could confess the truth of Bran and Rickon if his life depended on it, I disagree that Stannis would harm Bran or Rickon. I think Stannis would want them back at Winterfell to ensure the loyalty of the North.

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Well,I gave a warning beforehand that my thoughts are still fuzzy ... :frown5:

Theon is in a catch-22 situation.

I think his actions are driven by his fear of being returned to Ramsay and become Reek again.

Remember the hooded man he encountered at Winterfell? HM recognised him, but said 'I'll leave you to him then", 'him' being Ramsay.

I read it that his was meant as the ultimate punishment and that 'Reek' understood it as that.

Now Theon remembers his name, but he still fears being sent back to Ramsay and turn into Reek.

He knows Stannis is just. Harsh, but just.

And Theon knows that Arya (the real one) is of value to Stannis.

Theon saving Arya from the Boltons is also of value to Stannis.

So as long as Stannis thinks Theon saved the real Arya, Theon may think Stannis will be a wee grateful and grant him what he wants: a clean death as Theon.

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And, to adress Bran and Rickon. The catch-22 is what I said, no one will believe him. Everyone will say he is trying to save his hide (not literally spoken here ...)

And besides that: Theon could as well believe Bran and Rickon are dead. They disappeared and everybody seems to expect them dead, otherwise no one would believe in that Arya holds the claim to Winterfell.

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Theon may think Stannis will be a wee grateful and grant him what he wants: a clean death as Theon.

Truly, I think death is not his real desire. I posted this earlier:

I don't believe that he is actually "for" the death Stannis has in mind for him; though he's not dead set againist it either. If he was really so keen, he wouldn't have wanted Jeyne to correctly answer Mors Umber's questions so badly. "Mikken, Theon thought. His name was Mikken....Remember, damn you. Your father was the steward, he had charge of the whole household. The smith's name was Mikken, Mikken, Mikken."

This is not the thoughts of someone who is anxious to die.

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Small question regarding some of the discussion going on here, does Ramsay and/or Roose know that Bran & Rickon are alive? Was Ramsay with Theon when he did that or was he off gathering men at that time?

It was Ramsay's idea to kill the miller's kids in the first place. He was most definitely with Theon, as he was Reek and Reek was the one with the cunning plan. Also note that when Bran shelters with one of the mountain folk, he's told that the Boltons are looking for certain walking dead (implied to refer to Bran and Rickon).

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It was Ramsay's idea to kill the miller's kids in the first place. He was most definitely with Theon, as he was Reek and Reek was the one with the cunning plan. Also note that when Bran shelters with one of the mountain folk, he's told that the Boltons are looking for certain walking dead (implied to refer to Bran and Rickon).

Yea I think they believe that they must have died in the wilderness somewhere. Cant rem a specific reference but have vauge idea Roose said something along those lines.
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Truly, I think death is not his real desire. I posted this earlier:

I don't believe that he is actually "for" the death Stannis has in mind for him; though he's not dead set againist it either. If he was really so keen, he wouldn't have wanted Jeyne to correctly answer Mors Umber's questions so badly. "Mikken, Theon thought. His name was Mikken....Remember, damn you. Your father was the steward, he had charge of the whole household. The smith's name was Mikken, Mikken, Mikken."

This is not the thoughts of someone who is anxious to die.

We see Theon beginning to reassert himself as a man in the last chapters in Dance. While everyone's eager to hate on him, I think it's worth observing that he has incredible fortitude to be as sane as he is at this point, and to be showing any signs of recovery whatsoever (which he is).

He may have lost all of his grand illusions, but you still see fragments of his sense of humour and intelligence. He could bounce back and make something of himself eventually, and most likely he is going to escape captivity with Stannis one way or another. I suspect - much to the anger of some people on this board - that Bran is going to forgive him, seeing Theon in his broken state. But that's for TWOW to prove. For sure though, Martin's got more in mind for Theon. He's almost certain to live long enough to see the Iron Islands once more so Asha can challenge the legitimacy of the Kingsmoot.

We get rid of a useless character and Stannis gain respect with the Northern troops, its a win-win.

I feel this way about Arya, who hasn't been relevant to the plot for about three books. Theon's immediate actions could have huge consequences in the North and his death huge consequences in the Iron Islands. If Arya dies tomorrow... help me out here? I can't fathom what difference it'll make save her fans will cry.

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I see Theon as GRRM's Gollum. He is doomed to die, but not before he serves a major purpose that advances the plot. He knows Bran and Rickon are alive, he knows the situation at Winterfell (he seems to be holding out on Stannis somewhat), he can help Asha remove Euron, and he does have a strange connection to Ramsay.

I think he help to resolve all of these issues before he meets his fate.

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We see Theon beginning to reassert himself as a man in the last chapters in Dance. While everyone's eager to hate on him, I think it's worth observing that he has incredible fortitude to be as sane as he is at this point, and to be showing any signs of recovery whatsoever (which he is).

He may have lost all of his grand illusions, but you still see fragments of his sense of humour and intelligence. He could bounce back and make something of himself eventually, and most likely he is going to escape captivity with Stannis one way or another. I suspect - much to the anger of some people on this board - that Bran is going to forgive him, seeing Theon in his broken state. But that's for TWOW to prove. For sure though, Martin's got more in mind for Theon. He's almost certain to live long enough to see the Iron Islands once more so Asha can challenge the legitimacy of the Kingsmoot.

I feel this way about Arya, who hasn't been relevant to the plot for about three books. Theon's immediate actions could have huge consequences in the North and his death huge consequences in the Iron Islands. If Arya dies tomorrow... help me out here? I can't fathom what difference it'll make save her fans will cry.

I think Arya could have a big impact on the story in the future, with her connection to the Faceless Men. I think the reason why Arya hasn't seemed very relevant to the story, for like you said the last few books, is because GRRM has been getting Arya in just the right spot this whole time. So I don't see Arya as a useless character or anything, in fact, I think it's the opposite, and I think Arya will have a huge part in the future story. There has to be a reason, of why she has taken up so many pages so far, and not really much has happened with her. The only thing that makes sense, is that Arya has a huge role in events to come.

Fyi, I don't think Theon is useless either. (I actually don't think any character is useless, and I believe GRRM has a purpose for every charecter he puts into the story.)

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Just some random thoughts:

He knows Stannis is just. Harsh, but just.

Harsh, yes. Is anyone but me really bothered by the fact that Stannis hung the maimed and broken Theon on the wall in chains? It seems to me that it should be easy enough to keep Theon a prisoner without ripping his arms out.

I don't think Theon did Jeyne any favors by making her continue her impersonation of Arya. If she keeps up the pretense long enough, people might believe she's a willing participant in the plot to steal Winterfell. And of course, the longer there are false claimants the longer it will take to get Winterfell back to the real ones.

There are Liddles among Stannis' troops. Bran met a Liddle on his way to the wall, and I have no doubt that the Liddle knew who the crippled boy with the giant nurse was, and he probably had a clue who the girl with the net and trident was. However the Bran sighting obviously wasn't shared with Stannis. To me, this is more evidence that the Northmen with Stannis have their own agenda, and that putting Stannis on the iron throne isn't high on their list.

Arya's story arc is following the classic pattern of a revenge story. The powerless protagonist is injured, the protagonist leaves the scene of the injury and goes somewhere to acquire the power to get his revenge, the protagonist returns and kicks ass. Think Count of Monte Cristo, Wuthering Heights, etc. When Arya finally returns to Westeros I'm sure it will be to do something spectacular . . . but then I'm in the minority because I really lurve Arya's Braavos arc. Besides continuing the story of Arya, my favorite character, to me the Braavos interlude provides some relief from the complicated political clusterfucks in Westeros and Essos.

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