[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[MtnLion]

Arya's story arc is following the classic pattern of a revenge story. The powerless protagonist is injured, the protagonist leaves the scene of the injury and goes somewhere to acquire the power to get his revenge, the protagonist returns and kicks ass. Think Count of Monte Cristo, Wuthering Heights, etc. When Arya finally returns to Westeros I'm sure it will be to do something spectacular . . . but then I'm in the minority because I really lurve Arya's Braavos arc. Besides continuing the story of Arya, my favorite character, to me the Braavos interlude provides some relief from the complicated political clusterfucks in Westeros and Essos.

I'm right there with you! I do think that the government that eventually emerges will be overpowering to its enemies, and Arya is just one little cog in that wheel, but we will be dropping our jaws at the "mad skillz" she demonstrates.

[Lady Octarina]

Just some random thoughts:

Harsh, yes. Is anyone but me really bothered by the fact that Stannis hung the maimed and broken Theon on the wall in chains? It seems to me that it should be easy enough to keep Theon a prisoner without ripping his arms out.

I don't think Theon did Jeyne any favors by making her continue her impersonation of Arya. If she keeps up the pretense long enough, people might believe she's a willing participant in the plot to steal Winterfell. And of course, the longer there are false claimants the longer it will take to get Winterfell back to the real ones.

There are Liddles among Stannis' troops. Bran met a Liddle on his way to the wall, and I have no doubt that the Liddle knew who the crippled boy with the giant nurse was, and he probably had a clue who the girl with the net and trident was. However the Bran sighting obviously wasn't shared with Stannis. To me, this is more evidence that the Northmen with Stannis have their own agenda, and that putting Stannis on the iron throne isn't high on their list.

Arya's story arc is following the classic pattern of a revenge story. The powerless protagonist is injured, the protagonist leaves the scene of the injury and goes somewhere to acquire the power to get his revenge, the protagonist returns and kicks ass. Think Count of Monte Cristo, Wuthering Heights, etc. When Arya finally returns to Westeros I'm sure it will be to do something spectacular . . . but then I'm in the minority because I really lurve Arya's Braavos arc. Besides continuing the story of Arya, my favorite character, to me the Braavos interlude provides some relief from the complicated political clusterfucks in Westeros and Essos.

I agree with all you say, except I still think there is a chance the Northmen might support Stannis one way or another in the future. They haven't shared all they know with him because they don't know how much they can trust him yet. If Stannis, say, did sacrifice Theon to the old gods, perhaps they'd be more willing to fully support him?

He is harsh, I agree, but I think he probably considers Theon deserves all the pain coming his way as punishment for all he did. So why would he make his life any easier? What difference does it make to him Theon was broken enough by Ramsay? There's no human rights in Westeros...

One last thing: what happened to all those women Ramsay took from Winterfell, the ones he didn't kill on the spot? Is there any chance they're still alive at the Dreadfort, at least some of them? Because, once they defeat the Bolton's, they could be the key to revealing Jeyne is not Arya, since no other Stark will be arriving there so fast, and Rickon was only three last time he saw his sister - would he be able to tell Jeyne is not her?

And oh! I would really love if Old Nan was still around and started telling stories about the Others invading the North!

[The Sunset King]

If Stannis, say, did sacrifice Theon to the old gods, perhaps they'd be more willing to fully support him?

The emphasis placed on the red sap, or, as Asha though, dried blood, on the weirwood tree where Stannis is encamped certainly makes such a sacrifice a possibility (the description was even in the chapter called the "Sacrifice" IIRC, though the title refers to Asha; might be a potential parallel though). I wonder whether some of the Northerners might suggest making a sacrifice at that tree in the hopes that it will somehow change something about the lakes or the villages, thus providing an advantage for the coming battle.

Stannis is described as harsh in the books and to some degree is but most of the Northmen and many of Daenerys's allies seem just as harsh. Stannis's reputation seems sort of exaggerated by Westerosi standards.

It is hard to tell what the fate of the surviving spearwives was. It appears from the infamous letter that some of them may have been captured and information extracted from them about Mance. However, considering the emphasis the letter places on the threat of revealing Mance Rayder's continued existence, I suspect that even if captured Mance has not been tortured. Or at least not extensively; the author of that letter cannot afford to throw away the threat of revealing Mance, something that trying to torture him might put in jeopardy. If Stannis takes Winterfell, perhaps some of the people that know Jeyne's secret will reveal it. If Jon is back fast enough he might be able to do it as well.

[Jory]

There are Liddles among Stannis' troops. Bran met a Liddle on his way to the wall, and I have no doubt that the Liddle knew who the crippled boy with the giant nurse was, and he probably had a clue who the girl with the net and trident was. However the Bran sighting obviously wasn't shared with Stannis. To me, this is more evidence that the Northmen with Stannis have their own agenda, and that putting Stannis on the iron throne isn't high on their list.

More evidence? Show me the evidence where they exhibit any desire to betray Stannis, period. There isn't any. As for your Liddle theory, I disagree mostly because the Liddles are hardly incapable of communicating with the Wall or the remaining Northern lords - say, Manderly - and they failed to do so. This leads me to believe that one random Liddle meeting Bran and Hodor in a cave does not mean the same thing as: the entirety of the Liddle clan is convinced that Bran is still alive and now actively works towards some brilliant political maneuver even though before Stannis came along they were just sitting in the mountains chilling.

[iamthedave]

Arya's story arc is following the classic pattern of a revenge story. The powerless protagonist is injured, the protagonist leaves the scene of the injury and goes somewhere to acquire the power to get his revenge, the protagonist returns and kicks ass. Think Count of Monte Cristo, Wuthering Heights, etc. When Arya finally returns to Westeros I'm sure it will be to do something spectacular . . . but then I'm in the minority because I really lurve Arya's Braavos arc. Besides continuing the story of Arya, my favorite character, to me the Braavos interlude provides some relief from the complicated political clusterfucks in Westeros and Essos.

Actually it's not, because while she's been away almost everyone she wants revenge on has been killed.

By the time Arya returns she'll have at best two or three people left to take revenge on. What can she do that's spectacular? Perhaps kill Cersei at the height of her power. Except she can't because Cersei's going to be killed by the valonquar, whomever that turns out to be. Nobody seems to have noticed that most of the people on Arya's death list are minor, irrelevant characters who mean nothing. Ilyn Payne? A headsman who'll be replaced inside five minutes? Raff the Sweetling? WHO? A random soldier who once worked for Gregor Clegane?

Her revenge arc is going to be at best bitterly disappointing, if that's what you're so eagerly waiting for.

Furthermore, all of these theories hinge upon Arya being permitted to go on her vengeful way as opposed to doing exactly what the Faceless Men tell her to. You really think they won't kill her if she tries to leave after learning their secret magics and benefitting from all their teachings?

If that's the case, how do they even have secrets after all these years? I find it completely unbelievable that Arya Stark is the first Faceless Man in history to change her mind late in the game, but after all these years the FM remain secret, their ways and their tricks are unknown. Arya is a small fish and will always be a small fish, surrounded by assassins vastly better trained and more experienced.

I don't argue that Martin's got something in mind for her, but I imagine that it's related to the Faceless Men in entirety and that the final line of Arya's plotline in Dance is supposed to let us know that their indoctrination is breaking her down. Most likely, she's going to end up either infiltrating Dany's forces or going off to Oldtown with Sam. My money's on the latter since Sam's the only POV character in the area, and he could do with a stabby-stabby ally.

[Jaehaerys I]

Actually it's not, because while she's been away almost everyone she wants revenge on has been killed.

By the time Arya returns she'll have at best two or three people left to take revenge on. What can she do that's spectacular? Perhaps kill Cersei at the height of her power. Except she can't because Cersei's going to be killed by the valonquar, whomever that turns out to be. Nobody seems to have noticed that most of the people on Arya's death list are minor, irrelevant characters who mean nothing. Ilyn Payne? A headsman who'll be replaced inside five minutes? Raff the Sweetling? WHO? A random soldier who once worked for Gregor Clegane?

Her revenge arc is going to be at best bitterly disappointing, if that's what you're so eagerly waiting for.

Furthermore, all of these theories hinge upon Arya being permitted to go on her vengeful way as opposed to doing exactly what the Faceless Men tell her to. You really think they won't kill her if she tries to leave after learning their secret magics and benefitting from all their teachings?

If that's the case, how do they even have secrets after all these years? I find it completely unbelievable that Arya Stark is the first Faceless Man in history to change her mind late in the game, but after all these years the FM remain secret, their ways and their tricks are unknown. Arya is a small fish and will always be a small fish, surrounded by assassins vastly better trained and more experienced.

I don't argue that Martin's got something in mind for her, but I imagine that it's related to the Faceless Men in entirety and that the final line of Arya's plotline in Dance is supposed to let us know that their indoctrination is breaking her down. Most likely, she's going to end up either infiltrating Dany's forces or going off to Oldtown with Sam. My money's on the latter since Sam's the only POV character in the area, and he could do with a stabby-stabby ally.

Ok, this might be crackpot but this just came into my head. What if Arya is the valonqar? As part of the Faceless Men she would be able to change her face to Tyrion or Jaime and be the person to kill Cersei.

[kephv]

You really think they won't kill her if she tries to leave after learning their secret magics and benefitting from all their teachings?

I suppose if she just got up one day, after learning all their secrets, and told them she was quitting, then they would. More or less, though, she'll probably break away after she's sent off wherever (I think Oldtown for her reinsertion as well), in which case she'll be free to do as she pleases.

[Jory]

Actually it's not, because while she's been away almost everyone she wants revenge on has been killed.

By the time Arya returns she'll have at best two or three people left to take revenge on. What can she do that's spectacular? Perhaps kill Cersei at the height of her power. Except she can't because Cersei's going to be killed by the valonquar, whomever that turns out to be. Nobody seems to have noticed that most of the people on Arya's death list are minor, irrelevant characters who mean nothing. Ilyn Payne? A headsman who'll be replaced inside five minutes? Raff the Sweetling? WHO? A random soldier who once worked for Gregor Clegane?

Pfft... you just don't get it, do you? Arya's return and sweet vengeance against Raff the Sweetling and Polliver will be the ultimate climax of the series, after it's revealed that they're the Others.

[Melifeather]

I think Arya will be a good student and the people she kills will be an "assignment". She may get to kill some that were on her list, but somebody will come to the temple and pay for an assassin.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

More evidence? Show me the evidence where they exhibit any desire to betray Stannis, period. There isn't any. As for your Liddle theory, I disagree mostly because the Liddles are hardly incapable of communicating with the Wall or the remaining Northern lords - say, Manderly - and they failed to do so. This leads me to believe that one random Liddle meeting Bran and Hodor in a cave does not mean the same thing as: the entirety of the Liddle clan is convinced that Bran is still alive and now actively works towards some brilliant political maneuver even though before Stannis came along they were just sitting in the mountains chilling.

I don't think they're about to betray Stannis or oppose his claim to the iron throne -- my point is that they don't really care about Stannis and his goals. They are the most northern of Northmen, and they are more interested in their Lord's family, the fortress of Winterfell, and their personal goals of dying gloriously in battle, etc. The fact that Stannis is considering executing Theon in the Northern manner shows that the Northerners are pushing him in their direction, rather than the other way around. If Stannis wants the Northern lords to follow him south (assuming that's even possible) I don't think many will, especially with Robb's southern campaign fresh in their memories.

GRRM hasn't really disclosed what the Northerners know, but we have hints that there are plots within plots, to be sure. For example: there's an Umber inside Winterfell and an Umber outside, and that Umber outside was suspicious of "Arya." What does he know? Etc. Stannis has been dealing with the more conventional Northern Lords, like the Karstarks, but he hasn't been seen dealing much with the Hill Clans, even though they obviously know how to wage a winter war. So we don't really know what they're up to, and without more information my crackpot speculation is at least as good as yours.

Actually it's not, because while she's been away almost everyone she wants revenge on has been killed.

By the time Arya returns she'll have at best two or three people left to take revenge on. What can she do that's spectacular? Perhaps kill Cersei at the height of her power. Except she can't because Cersei's going to be killed by the valonquar, whomever that turns out to be. Nobody seems to have noticed that most of the people on Arya's death list are minor, irrelevant characters who mean nothing. Ilyn Payne? A headsman who'll be replaced inside five minutes? Raff the Sweetling? WHO? A random soldier who once worked for Gregor Clegane?

WHO? The people who really injured her by conspiring against and murdering her family, and there are shitloads of them left. My particular fantasy/crackpot theory has Arya, in full assassin mode, let loose in the Twins, an echo of the ghosts of Harrenhall and Winterfell. There are still Lannisters to kill -- Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion (wouldn't that be a standoff? favorite character vs. favorite character), Daven, etc., etc., Littlefinger, Varys, the Ramsays (although it appears that their demise is imminent; it would be more satisfactory if one of Robb's relatives skewered Roose, but we know that GRRM doesn't play that way) Greyjoys, the men of the Night's Watch who dared slay her beloved brother Jon -- yes, plenty of targets to keep a teenage ninja busy.

I don't think the Faceless Men will let Arya go because I don't think she'll stop to ask permission. Arya doesn't ask. If she meets a Night's Watch deserter, she kills him. It's also clear that Arya's been keeping secrets from the FM from day one, that her secrets are getting deeper and more important, and that her secrets are related to her identity as a Stark. Her "prayer," Needle, her wolf dreams, warging the cat -- all of these things tie her to Westeros and her family and are potential tools of her revenge. It seems obvious to me that she'll return to Westeros, then she'll either go to the Riverlands, drawn there because of UnCat and Nymeria, or that she'll go to the Wall after Jon. The textual evidence of her being absorbed by the FM is far less, imo.

[Lady Octarina]

Ok, this might be crackpot but this just came into my head. What if Arya is the valonqar? As part of the Faceless Men she would be able to change her face to Tyrion or Jaime and be the person to kill Cersei.

That would be interesting, and dramatic in a way. Valonqar could also have a different meaning beyong what Cersei knows that corroborates that. The problem is, as good as she might get with the FM abilities, she's not tall enough to impersonate Jaime, but Tyrion, maybe. On the other hand, both Cersei's brothers have plenty of reasons to kill her, and I think it would really be more interesting if Jaime, the one she really doesn't expect to do that, would be the valonqar. If he survives UnCat and her buddies, of course.

the Ramsays (although it appears that their demise is imminent; it would be more satisfactory if one of Robb's relatives skewered Roose, but we know that GRRM doesn't play that way)

I like your ideas, but just one thing: you meant the Boltons, right? And I think that after she runs away to complete her vendetta, chances are a FM (maybe Jaqen himself?) will find her and kill her for her betrayal to their order, or whatever. I simply can't see her surviving these books, and to be killed by a FM simply seems... right.

[iamthedave]

I suppose if she just got up one day, after learning all their secrets, and told them she was quitting, then they would. More or less, though, she'll probably break away after she's sent off wherever (I think Oldtown for her reinsertion as well), in which case she'll be free to do as she pleases.

You really think they won't find her? Come on. The Faceless Men - as they are in these books - are supernaturally good. It's not credible for Arya to do what her fans desperately want her to do inside the world as its presented to us. Arya is not some spunky punk successfully rebelling against society. She's spent four books as somebody's prisoner. First it was Yoren, then it was Gregor, then it was the Brotherhood Without Banners, then it was Sandor, now it's the Faceless Men. Arya has NEVER been independent, just independently MINDED, and it's gotten her precisely nowhere.

Sounds like pure wishful thinking to me. The same as I hope for Brienne and Jaime to admit their love for one another and ride off into the sunset without looking back. I WANT that to happen, so badly. But I know that it won't. One and most likely both of them will die before the series' end, and I'll be upset.

I suggest Arya fans gird their mental loins for similar feelings...

I don't think the Faceless Men will let Arya go because I don't think she'll stop to ask permission. Arya doesn't ask. If she meets a Night's Watch deserter, she kills him. It's also clear that Arya's been keeping secrets from the FM from day one, that her secrets are getting deeper and more important, and that her secrets are related to her identity as a Stark. Her "prayer," Needle, her wolf dreams, warging the cat -- all of these things tie her to Westeros and her family and are potential tools of her revenge. It seems obvious to me that she'll return to Westeros, then she'll either go to the Riverlands, drawn there because of UnCat and Nymeria, or that she'll go to the Wall after Jon. The textual evidence of her being absorbed by the FM is far less, imo.

For this series of events to occur the Faceless Men would have to be complete incompetents and the very notion that all of their teachings are secret becomes ludicrous. As I said, Arya has spent the last four books being a serial hostage. The idea that she's some spunky do-as-I-want super kid is myth.

So no, they won't let her go. One day she'll just decide to walk. And then they'll find her and quietly kill her in her sleep, because in the end Arya Stark is not the biggest, baddest thing around. She's always run with things that are bigger than her, badder than her, and nastier than her, and the Faceless Men are infinitely nastier than she could ever dream of being.

Jaqen H'Ghar being the one who finally kills her would, as said above, be quite fitting and I could see that. Maybe he finds her on the wall, like Old Nan said the one time?

[kephv]

You really think they won't find her? Come on. The Faceless Men - as they are in these books - are supernaturally good.

How would they find her, and how would they know? If she didn't come back after a certain period (Jaqen been gone for a few years now doing whatever) they might send someone out, but it's going to be a pretty difficult task to track someone down who's capable of changing their appearance whenever they want to. They're not supernaturally good, either. They use magic for certain aspects of their face changing, but they kill by completely ordinary means. Also, she's not their prisoner. Not as of yet at least.

And I'd say she has a very real chance to do exactly what she wants to do, as long as she's able to track those people down (a few may be coming to her already). The only one who'd be tricky is Cersei, but I doubt she'll be the end of her anyway.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I like your ideas, but just one thing: you meant the Boltons, right? And I think that after she runs away to complete her vendetta, chances are a FM (maybe Jaqen himself?) will find her and kill her for her betrayal to their order, or whatever. I simply can't see her surviving these books, and to be killed by a FM simply seems... right.

Ramsays? Duuuuuuuuuh. Boltons, of course. And yes, I expect there might be retaliation by the FM if/when she leaves. But they've known almost from day one that they have Arya of House Stark in their hands, and considering the way the FM collect intelligence, they know what that means. Who knows, they might find it very convenient to have a FM with a free pass to the great houses of Westeros amongst their number.

I just don't think that GRRM would bother to set the stage for Arya's return, and then continuing her story, if she wasn't going to have a significant role in the future. And she's no further out of action than Bran (in a cave with a talking corpse, making long-distance calls by raven), Rickon (the gods know where doing the gods know what), Sansa (talk about being a prisoner, she's practically inert, yet somehow people expect great things from her), and Jon (dead, dead, or mostly dead). Maybe we're all wrong to expect any Stark to do anything.

[iamthedave]

I just don't think that GRRM would bother to set the stage for Arya's return, and then continuing her story, if she wasn't going to have a significant role in the future. And she's no further out of action than Bran (in a cave with a talking corpse, making long-distance calls by raven), Rickon (the gods know where doing the gods know what), Sansa (talk about being a prisoner, she's practically inert, yet somehow people expect great things from her), and Jon (dead, dead, or mostly dead). Maybe we're all wrong to expect any Stark to do anything.

This is the thing, though: has he actually set the stage for Arya's return? There's no movement in that direction in her brief Dance plotline.

I think we've all slotted Dance - love it or hate it or inbetween - as a 'shuffling' book where Martin's prodding all his characters where he wants them. If that's so, and we see no evidence of Arya 1) breaking away from the Faceless Men (we see the exact opposite in one reading, and at best she's in a holding pattern) or 2) planning to return to Westeros or being pushed that way by the Faceless Men.

This seems to imply that Martin wants her to stay across the Narrow Sea. Now, he's said that in Winds he hopes to get everyone back on one continent, and this is what leads me to suspect she'll wind up with Sam in Oldtown, since that's the closest to where she is now and we know the Faceless Men have some interest there which has yet to be revealed. Basically, if the FM are intended to get up to something, Arya is our POV inside the ranks to see it, the same as Davos was for Stannis back before Asha was a kidnapee and Theon was for the Boltons and their villainy. If she DOES return to the main action, perhaps she'll return to the wall with Sam, if he returns at all?

I'll be honest in saying that I feel that the Starks haven't been main characters in a long time, though that could/should change in Winds. Still, as I see it the Starks line up something like this:

Jon: Very likely to return to life somehow, much to my great irritation and go on to be Azor Ahai, much to my even greater irritation. Jon fans will be happy. We will likely finally discover he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen in a twist that will result in at least three solid months of 'I told you so' posts on these boards.

Bran: Depends on just how powerful he is now, but it seems a guarantee he'll now be a major background character with all sorts of 'ooo, that tree branch moved, Bran did it!' speculation. Alternatively may become the Great Other. This strikes me as unlikely.

Arya: POV on the FM and their shenanigans. Can't even speculate on what they are, which is why I'm so sure she's going to be. May be set up to perform one critical assassination that turns the entire course of events, or may wind up being angled towards...

Sansa: In position to assume her rightful role as a critical political pawn in the Riverlands. Inherent Starkiness may result in shenanigans. Realization that Petyr Baelish is a creepy perv may likewise cause shenanigans. Arrival of Brynden Blackfish should result in both shenanigans AND hijinx. If he doesn't arrive, someone else will. I've always had a creepy feeling that Arya will kill Sansa eventually, but I'm probably wrong. Could be that Sansa and Arya get to finally make up, but I think the chance for heartrending tragedy may be too choice for Martin to pass it up. Seems a near-certainty that Sansa won't make it out of the books given the politics = death equation in this series.

Rickon: May well turn out to be living the good life as a cannibal on Skagos since Martin has developed an unhealthy obsession with grim darkness and never passes a gross-out opportunity these days. Alternatively, prisoner. Davos rescues. May go on to be the Stark in Winterfell. Will still pee the bed.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

Jaqen H'Ghar being the one who finally kills her would, as said above, be quite fitting and I could see that. Maybe he finds her on the wall, like Old Nan said the one time?

Could Jaqen kill Arya seeing as her knows her? Isn't it one of their rules that they can only kill people who are strangers to them?

[Geoff]

[Massey is] more likely to find Ayra. Or rather Arya will find him. A Stark in the hand is worth a whole army in the north. More importantly Arya will know her family is still alive

I think as stated above Stannis uses the ravens to send misinformation may be the source of Ramseys information in the letter. However doesn't Theon say Ramsey is in the field following The Freys and Manderleys?

Perhaps he'll meet Arya, or more likely, Dany, but I would like for him to meet up with Moqorro and discuss Mel and what is going on beyond the wall. That might give Dany a whole new priority and direction in order to save what she considers to be her realm.

[iamthedave]

Could Jaqen kill Arya seeing as her knows her? Isn't it one of their rules that they can only kill people who are strangers to them?

Ah that is true. I'd let that slip my mind (which is rather silly considering).

[Carey Snow]

My opinion of the Faceless Men in regards to Arya is that they realize who they have. They will not let Arya turn completely into a faceless man. She is much more powerful as an Arya Stark, possible Lady of the North and Faceless Man loyal ally, than as an 11 year old female assassin. They will not let her completely forget who she is. They will try to train her "or brainwash her" into being loyal and helping to place her in a position of power. Then asking favors now and then as they please.

Arya Stark is a very powerful asset to the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank. They will use her wisely unless she escapes.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

But then again, rules are there to be broken. And for all we know Jaqen could have motives of his own