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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4


Angalin

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My opinion of the Faceless Men in regards to Arya is that they realize who they have. They will not let Arya turn completely into a faceless man. She is much more powerful as an Arya Stark, possible Lady of the North and Faceless Man loyal ally, than as an 11 year old female assassin. They will not let her completely forget who she is. They will try to train her "or brainwash her" into being loyal and helping to place her in a position of power. Then asking favors now and then as they please.

Arya Stark is a very powerful asset to the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank. They will use her wisely unless she escapes.

I don't really think that the FM really expect their members to forget who they are and become no one, what they want is their members to be able to lie about being "no one," so that they can completely sink into their roles.

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I think it's not important whether or not their members lie about forgetting their past and becoming no one, I think all they want is their complete allegiance, like Sand Snake no 9 suggests. Actually, this "I'm no one" mantra reminds me of Pascal... he had this idea that if he went to church often enough, he might start believing in all the things the priest said and have his place secured in heaven, if it exist. So if they, the FM, force their members to repeat they're no one, maybe they'll start believing it themselves and put all their hearts into their cause, whatever it is. In those circumstances, it's not important if Arya stops feeling like a Stark - she knows she was born a Stark, and if that's useful to the FM purposes, she might remember that just enough to do her job.

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I don't think it has been mentioned before, but Stannis sending Alysanne Mormont with Jeyne to find Jon in order to "pay his debts" is quite an interesting choice.

It's likely the She-bear will find Jon's "dead" body and take Longclaw from him if he remains in Ghost for a prolonged period of time. Alternatively, if Jon is immediately resurrected by Melisandra, Jon may give Longclaw to the She-bear instead, as it is the Mormont family sword. Either way Jon loses Longclaw back to the Mormont family.

This has a symbolic purpose, as Longclaw is a 'bastard' sword and is described in ACOK as a "bastard sword for the bastard". Jon losing it is an indicator that Jon's bastard status will change and opens up a range of new possibilities, strongly hinting that r+l=j will be revealed in TWOW. Bloodraven, who was the last known possessor of Dark Sister may have arranged for the sword to be in the crypts of Winterfell, or give it to him in some other way, providing a measure of proof for r+l=j.

"Aegon" is likely a secret Blackfyre as has been hinted and foreshadowed extensively in ADWD. Hence if Jon Connington and the Golden Company brings the sword Blackfyre across the Narrow Sea, this could allow for a replay of Bloodraven vs Bittersteel, with Jon wielding Dark Sister and Jon Connington or "Aegon" using Blackfyre.

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Bloodraven, who was the last known possessor of Dark Sister may have arranged for the sword to be in the crypts of Winterfell, or give it to him in some other way, providing a measure of proof for r+l=j.

Another possibility would be that Aegon V did not allow Bloodraven to take Dark Sister to the Wall. (With Blackfyre gone, it was the Targs' only Valyrian steel sword left. Bloodraven's preferred weapon was his weirwood bow, anyway.) Dark Sister eventually descended to Rhaegar, who chose not to use it for some reason (it was too small for his taste?) and left it with Lyanna for their child. (Given Lyanna's athletic ability, either a boy or a girl would probably be capable of wielding the sword.) Eddard took it north and placed it with Lyanna's bones in the Winterfell crypt. Different route, same destination.

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This has a symbolic purpose, as Longclaw is a 'bastard' sword and is described in ACOK as a "bastard sword for the bastard". Jon losing it is an indicator that Jon's bastard status will change and opens up a range of new possibilities, strongly hinting that r+l=j will be revealed in TWOW. Bloodraven, who was the last known possessor of Dark Sister may have arranged for the sword to be in the crypts of Winterfell, or give it to him in some other way, providing a measure of proof for r+l=j.

Unless they R + L managed to find the time to marry AND that marriage can be proven (which strikes me as next to impossible) nothing can ever change Jon's status as a bastard save royal decree. Which he already had a chance to accept and refused.

I really think the R + L theory has rooted itself so deeply in the psyche of many people on this forum that they think when it's revealed it will cause the entire series to transform, when it seems to me that there are dozens of factors working against it doing so, most notably that the only person still alive who'd know has zero credibility with anyone not of the North. And I'm not even sure the Reeds have much cred in the North, either. They were barely mentioned in Dance, and nobody seemed interested in courting their support.

Seems to me that if R + L = J is significant, it's most likely because of prophecy. But as someone else pointed out, it would only change Jon's name to Jon Rivers instead of Snow.

Proof is really the issue.

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You just reminded me that it's still not clear for me if the bastard surenames depend on where actually the child is born, or on either parents orgin.

Jon is fact is a good example. Assuming R+L=J is true and...

I.) If it depends on the location of the birth, which was Dorne:

Jon Sand

II.) If it depends on the orgin of the mother - Lyanna who is a Stark from the North - which is the only thing that is always 100% sure about the parents.

Jon Snow

III.) If it depends on the orgin of the father - Rhaegar who is a Targaryen from the Crownlands:

Jon Waters

So, all in all, it's pretty simple some times, when all these things overlap, both parents are from the same region and the child is born there.

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You just reminded me that it's still not clear for me if the bastard surenames depend on where actually the child is born, or on either parents orgin.

Jon is fact is a good example. Assuming R+L=J is true and...

I.) If it depends on the location of the birth, which was Dorne:

Jon Sand

II.) If it depends on the orgin of the mother - Lyanna who is a Stark from the North - which is the only thing that is always 100% sure about the parents.

Jon Snow

III.) If it depends on the orgin of the father - Rhaegar who is a Targaryen from the Crownlands:

Jon Waters

So, all in all, it's pretty simple some times, when all these things overlap, both parents are from the same region and the child is born there.

I think it's said somewhere in GoT that the surname is based on the place where they're born rather than the origin of the parents.

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Coming back to Theon in the TWOW chapter, I think several posts here are overthinking his intentions quite a lot. To get into his head, we have to get on the same level of thinking he is on, and that isn't a sober "what is best for me" kind of mindset. He has been tortured and brainwashed extensively, and identity was a huge part of this brain-washing. "I have to remember my NAME" comes to mind. He also doesn't appear to feel that he is totally out of reach of his nemesis Ramsey, and that this fear might still drive his behavior. Somehow, the tree (or Bran) saying his real name has brought him back to accepting himself as Theon, but that doesn't mean he is willing to accept Arya transforming back to Jeyne as well. His main driving force seems to be fear at this point, and he might just be too afraid to let that happen, both afraid of Ramsey's revenge as well as for Jeyne's sake. He could reasonably fear that unless she remains Arya something bad will happen to her from Stannis side (fear doesn't need a factual basis), and this seems to me also the best explanation of why he is desperately hoping she remembers Mikken's name when asked about it. Fear for her safety, that is, not necessarily concerns for his own future.

I'll also go ahead here and say that I don't really understand all the hate towards Theon's character. I don't see him as a turncloak, betrayer and certainly not a craven. He was a hostage kept at his enemies' family, and he seems to have played his role there with full commitment. He went to war with Robb, which is not a small thing understanding where he comes from. Robb then goes ahead and releases him to make a proposal to his father the Kraken, something Cat thinks to be unwise. He performs this duty as well, trying to convince his father of the benefits of this arrangement. When this is refused, what is he supposed to do - go back to his foster family as a hostage? I think Cat understood that when they released him and the Kraken refused, Theon would remain there. He then goes on to be loyal to his own father and king, and while certainly vain and over-ambitious, attacks Winterfell directly - not a cravens deed in my book. He does some unkind things at Winterfell, but nothing unreasonable. I think if this wasn't the place he grew up in and people he knew we wouldn't call it atrocious at all. But it isn't his fault his new lord declared war on his former family. He genuinely never appears to intend any harm towards the Stark boys, and kills the miller's kids as the only way to save face in front of his men when he is sure he will never bring the Starks back alive.

He certainly isn't my favorite character and neither a role model for anyone to live by, but I think he deserves better than his reputation at the moment. His main fault to me still is his vanity, not his sense of honor or duty.

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Unless they R + L managed to find the time to marry AND that marriage can be proven (which strikes me as next to impossible) nothing can ever change Jon's status as a bastard save royal decree. Which he already had a chance to accept and refused.

I really think the R + L theory has rooted itself so deeply in the psyche of many people on this forum that they think when it's revealed it will cause the entire series to transform, when it seems to me that there are dozens of factors working against it doing so, most notably that the only person still alive who'd know has zero credibility with anyone not of the North. And I'm not even sure the Reeds have much cred in the North, either. They were barely mentioned in Dance, and nobody seemed interested in courting their support.

Seems to me that if R + L = J is significant, it's most likely because of prophecy. But as someone else pointed out, it would only change Jon's name to Jon Rivers instead of Snow.

Proof is really the issue.

Why would it have been impossible for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna? The Targaryen's were known for both plural marriage (Aegon with sisters/wives Rhaenys and Visenya) and legitamizing bastards (Aegon IV). Furthermore, during Robert's Rebellion, when Ned arrived with force at the Tower of Joy, there were Kingsgard guarding Lyanna. Why would they do so unless they were protecting a future king?

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This has been done to death in other threads, let's leave it there. It seems obvious to me that if one takes vows and oaths lightly then you can excuse what you see here, but in this world oaths and vows are examined closely, and Theon shirked his when it suited him. Therefore Turncloak is appropriate, and kinslayer is appropriate if we later learn that one of the Miller's children was actually his.

Robb then goes ahead and releases him to make a proposal to his father the Kraken, something Cat thinks to be unwise. He performs this duty as well, trying to convince his father of the benefits of this arrangement. When this is refused, what is he supposed to do - go back to his foster family as a hostage? I think Cat understood that when they released him and the Kraken refused, Theon would remain there. He then goes on to be loyal to his own father and king, and while certainly vain and over-ambitious, attacks Winterfell directly - not a cravens deed in my book. He does some unkind things at Winterfell, but nothing unreasonable. I think if this wasn't the place he grew up in and people he knew we wouldn't call it atrocious at all. But it isn't his fault his new lord declared war on his former family. He genuinely never appears to intend any harm towards the Stark boys, and kills the miller's kids as the only way to save face in front of his men when he is sure he will never bring the Starks back alive.
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Unless they R + L managed to find the time to marry AND that marriage can be proven (which strikes me as next to impossible) nothing can ever change Jon's status as a bastard save royal decree. Which he already had a chance to accept and refused. I really think the R + L theory has rooted itself so deeply in the psyche of many people on this forum that they think when it's revealed it will cause the entire series to transform, when it seems to me that there are dozens of factors working against it doing so, most notably that the only person still alive who'd know has zero credibility with anyone not of the North. And I'm not even sure the Reeds have much cred in the North, either. They were barely mentioned in Dance, and nobody seemed interested in courting their support. Seems to me that if R + L = J is significant, it's most likely because of prophecy. But as someone else pointed out, it would only change Jon's name to Jon Rivers instead of Snow. Proof is really the issue.
The proof is what the King's Guard gave at the Tower of Joy, with their lives. Ned offered them a chance to avoid the fight, in many ways, none of which they would take. It is quite clear that they are guarding the heir to the throne as they see the situation.
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Unless they R + L managed to find the time to marry AND that marriage can be proven (which strikes me as next to impossible) nothing can ever change Jon's status as a bastard save royal decree...

You're making this too difficult for yourself. If Daenerys wins her conquest, the only person Jon has to convince is her -- which given that this is a fantasy story, can be accomplished via a multitude of options (i.e., her heart, the dragons, some dream vision, the reappearance of a hitherto dead character, and on and on and on). In the end, this is not too difficult of a concept to grasp: if GRRM wants Jon Targaryen, we’re getting that result damn the plausibility of it.

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You're making this too difficult for yourself. If Daenerys wins her conquest, the only person Jon has to convince is her -- which given that this is a fantasy story, can be accomplished via a multitude of options (i.e., her heart, the dragons, some dream vision, the reappearance of a hitherto dead character, and on and on and on). In the end, this is not too difficult of a concept to grasp: if GRRM wants Jon Targaryen, we’re getting that result damn the plausibility of it.

Lol...agreed. GRRM has driven me crazy with House strength numbers since AGOT. If he wants Jon to be king he will make it so. But remember that Howland Reed is still in play. He is likely the one person left alive and the likely choice (along with maybe Bran) to reveal who Jon really is.

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Well, to turn it back on course, the same reasoning applies to Theon as much as it does to Jon. If, for his own reasons, GRRM wants Theon to rule over the Iron Islands, he's going to make it happen. This, despite the precarious state of Theon's sanity, the unlikely possibility that the Ironborn will accept him and the clusterfuck he currently finds himself in.

My only point, really, is that we should focus on the flow of the story rather than whether something seems plausible or not. I bring this up, because Asha’s ruminations on how she can take down Euron and better her situation are there for a reason – as is Theon, for that matter. He didn’t simply come back from hell and the bowels of insanity to put in a cameo in TWoW. He’s there to do something, whatever that may be.

And, incidentally, that doesn’t mean I think Theon and Asha will be successful in putting him in charge of the Ironborn. It may very well be that the only purpose to that whole storyline is for Asha to help Theon gain his freedom after which he’ll take his fate into his own hands and do something completely different.

Either way, though, something has to come of it. Too much groundwork has been set for that for it to be abandoned without any kind of resolution.

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I stayed off the boards for a month, and came back to find this chapter the other day. Holy hell, I can't tell you the joy it brought me! :)

I took the last few days reading every last post of all (4) Theon I threads and (as expected) -- you guys have said everything I would have said. Lol. (Btw, I've no doubt that Tybald is from Dreadfort hehe [strange how guys with the name ___bald have hunched shoulders/rounded back... hmmm ;-))

Rather than re-hash the whole chapter, I just want to say IT F'KN ROCKED! Loved, loved, loved it -- for the obvious reasons, but *also* because I feel like I have a taste of what's to come when other major players start meeting up.

I mean, if this is a taste of Stannis/Theon, well then I can only imagine how great the chapters will be with characters like Tyrion & Dany, or Jon & Dany, Stannis & Jaime, Sansa & whoever. You get my drift.

Once people start meeting up--chapters are going to be electric.

A huge TY to GRRM for a wonderful read -- and I can't wait for the rest!

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If Theon is "redeemed" as you think, can you explain to me why Theon--when Theon lept from the tower with Jeyne-- took it upon himself to land on top of Jeyne Poole rather than being a man and placing her on top so she'd land on him? Or why Theon did not tell Jeyne's true identity when they reached the Umbars? Or when they reached Stannis?

I'm hopeful Theon will improve as a human being but IMO even in the Dec 2012 sample that Theon's still the self centered selfish jerk, aspiring for wealth and glory and so egocentric he believes himself honest, but no more honest or trustworthy than when we first met him in AGOT. Whatever his flaws, I think flawed Theon will try and redeem his betrayal of the Starks.

He didn't tell Jeyne's true identity because it might have gotten her killed! As Lady Arya, she is entitled to protection of some kind. Even if it's only as a hostage or until they can annul the Bolton marriage and marry her to someone of their choosing, it's still a LOT better than, "oh, yes, this is Jeyne Poole, a whore trained in LF's houses and used by the Lannisters as a tool to hijack the Winterfell inheritance for the Boltons. Her father used to be the Stark's steward before the Lannisters had him killed." This would not only entitle her to NOTHING from Stannis, but it might actually inspire him to execute her for her role in conspiring with the Lannisters and Boltons to usurp the Stark inheritance.

Theon helped Jeyne as if she really were Arya. He didn't think it was at Arya's expense because nobody's seen her since the purge at King's Landing. For all Jeyne and Theon know, Arya's been dead for years. It's wildly improbably that she survived the purge that claimed so many others.

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Why would it have been impossible for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna? The Targaryen's were known for both plural marriage (Aegon with sisters/wives Rhaenys and Visenya) and legitamizing bastards (Aegon IV). Furthermore, during Robert's Rebellion, when Ned arrived with force at the Tower of Joy, there were Kingsgard guarding Lyanna. Why would they do so unless they were protecting a future king?

It's proving it that's the hard part. Unless they can find the priest who did the marriage, I can't see how they could.

The proof is what the King's Guard gave at the Tower of Joy, with their lives. Ned offered them a chance to avoid the fight, in many ways, none of which they would take. It is quite clear that they are guarding the heir to the throne as they see the situation.

Yes, you find that very convincing. How many characters in the series do you honestly think would agree that this is proof positive? Given that nobody seems to find the fight at the Tower of Joy suspicious - we've never heard anyone theorize on why they were there - I think you're putting altogether too much weight on it.

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He didn't tell Jeyne's true identity because it might have gotten her killed! As Lady Arya, she is entitled to protection of some kind. Even if it's only as a hostage or until they can annul the Bolton marriage and marry her to someone of their choosing, it's still a LOT better than, "oh, yes, this is Jeyne Poole, a whore trained in LF's houses and used by the Lannisters as a tool to hijack the Winterfell inheritance for the Boltons. Her father used to be the Stark's steward before the Lannisters had him killed." This would not only entitle her to NOTHING from Stannis, but it might actually inspire him to execute her for her role in conspiring with the Lannisters and Boltons to usurp the Stark inheritance.

Theon helped Jeyne as if she really were Arya. He didn't think it was at Arya's expense because nobody's seen her since the purge at King's Landing. For all Jeyne and Theon know, Arya's been dead for years. It's wildly improbably that she survived the purge that claimed so many others.

I don't agree.

I think Jeyne would have been quite safe with the Northmen. As you said, she is the daughter of Ned Stark's late steward. And she was quite clearly a Lannister victim. In addition, her very existence is proof how the Lannisters and Boltons were betraying the North. As such, she would have been valuable to Stannis as well. He might have helped her out of pity, too. But not anymore. Theon made her lie to Stannis, and Stannis will not forgive that when he finds out. When, not if. Even the Northmen will suspect nothing but treachery from her now.

What Theon did does not make Jeyne any safer. On the contrary.

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