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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4


Angalin

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Yes, you find that very convincing. How many characters in the series do you honestly think would agree that this is proof positive? Given that nobody seems to find the fight at the Tower of Joy suspicious - we've never heard anyone theorize on why they were there - I think you're putting altogether too much weight on it.

Not at all, it is quite a clear message that GRRM wanted to convey. How many people in the story know about the fight at the Tower of Joy to discuss it? None that would, because they fully understand the meaing. Neither Ned nor Howland were going to divulge Jon's parentage, and Ned wanted to make sure that the rumor about his fight with Ser Arthur did not get wide spread, too.
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This has been done to death in other threads, let's leave it there.

OK, wasn't aware of that, likely mistake on my 1st post...

What Theon did does not make Jeyne any safer.

I think it's not important if it makes Jeyne safer, but whether Theon perceives it makes her safer. As someone tortured and brainwashed by Ramsey, I can easily see him too afraid to reveal her identity - to anyone.

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Not at all, it is quite a clear message that GRRM wanted to convey. How many people in the story know about the fight at the Tower of Joy to discuss it? None that would, because they fully understand the meaing. Neither Ned nor Howland were going to divulge Jon's parentage, and Ned wanted to make sure that the rumor about his fight with Ser Arthur did not get wide spread, too.

To the reader, and even that is arguable. You act as if this is conclusive evidence to the entire community, when it's not. It's conclusive to the people who subscribe to the theory in the first place. And in fact, not even all of them go so far as to believe R + L were married.

If you view this from an in-setting perspective, the entire thing is ridiculously easy to dismiss unless someone else other than Howland Reed is still alive and can testify that Jon was born there and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. There is no conclusive evidence that they were married, in fact there's no evidence at all, just hope from people increasingly invested in the idea of Jon Targaryen.

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To the reader, and even that is arguable. You act as if this is conclusive evidence to the entire community, when it's not. It's conclusive to the people who subscribe to the theory in the first place. And in fact, not even all of them go so far as to believe R + L were married.

If you view this from an in-setting perspective, the entire thing is ridiculously easy to dismiss unless someone else other than Howland Reed is still alive and can testify that Jon was born there and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. There is no conclusive evidence that they were married, in fact there's no evidence at all, just hope from people increasingly invested in the idea of Jon Targaryen.

Well, I guess you can lead a horse to water....

It is quite clear that it is textual evidence to support that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, had a son at the Tower of Joy, and the King's Guard died defending him there. So, I guess we will have to wait until GRRM writes explicitly that for some people to get the message.

ETA: You are correct that it can be dismissed if a person does not comprehend more than one sentence at a time. If one considers the whole of the parts related to that scene, it is impossible to dismiss. Sorry, it is as plain as if GRRM had written exactly that. Of course GRRM can change people's eye colors and the sexes of horses, or the shape of a woman's hips; but it seems clear that he intended for the reader to understand the meaning of the scene as Jon being born as an heir, at that point the heir.

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To the reader, and even that is arguable. You act as if this is conclusive evidence to the entire community, when it's not. It's conclusive to the people who subscribe to the theory in the first place. And in fact, not even all of them go so far as to believe R + L were married.

If you view this from an in-setting perspective, the entire thing is ridiculously easy to dismiss unless someone else other than Howland Reed is still alive and can testify that Jon was born there and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. There is no conclusive evidence that they were married, in fact there's no evidence at all, just hope from people increasingly invested in the idea of Jon Targaryen.

Hmm... everyone seems to assume that second person would be the priest who performed the ceremony, but I'm more inclined to believe in a Dayne. I mean, that's by far the most mysterious family in all Westeros. Do we know when Ashara supposedly threw herself at the sea? What if she really is Lemore, what if she was around when such a marriage happened, what if she ran away from Westeros because of how much she knew on the subject? And what about Ser Gerold Dayne, is he old enough to know something? If not, maybe his parents?

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Hmm... everyone seems to assume that second person would be the priest who performed the ceremony, but I'm more inclined to believe in a Dayne. I mean, that's by far the most mysterious family in all Westeros. Do we know when Ashara supposedly threw herself at the sea? What if she really is Lemore, what if she was around when such a marriage happened, what if she ran away from Westeros because of how much she knew on the subject? And what about Ser Gerold Dayne, is he old enough to know something? If not, maybe his parents?

It seems no less probable than the entire chain of events, and would definitely provide a solid reason for Ashara to still be alive beyond my theory that everyone in Westeros is born with a 1UP mushroom.

ETA: You are correct that it can be dismissed if a person does not comprehend more than one sentence at a time.

Oh please do tell me how to read a book properly, master. It seems I've been doing it wrong all these years. My pathetic mortal comprehension cannot ever match yours, master.

Look, I'm not invested in R + L either way. If he is he is if he's not he's not. I find the extra step to R + L being married quite hard to swallow, though, for various reasons, most significantly of all being Rhaegar's entire purpose for the mad stunt he pulled, which seems to be from all evidence that he felt he needed to have a child by Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. But that prophecy is related to The Others, NOT the Iron Throne. I don't see any way in which Rhaegar marrying Lyanna is required or needed for what Rhaegar was trying to accomplish and accordingly don't see why Rhaegar would think to marry her.

It reeks to me of people trying to twist it into a luvvy duvvy wuvvy womance plot rather than truly looking for evidence in the text. There's strong evidence - if you take a long time gathering it - that Jon may be Rhaegar's son. There's NOT strong evidence that Rhaegar married Lyanna.

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It reeks to me of people trying to twist it into a luvvy duvvy wuvvy womance plot rather than truly looking for evidence in the text. There's strong evidence - if you take a long time gathering it - that Jon may be Rhaegar's son. There's NOT strong evidence that Rhaegar married Lyanna.

It certainly seems to be the beginning of a romance at Harrenhal. That word of the marriage did not get back to Winterfell or the Iron Throne could very well be explained by raven logistics, or Maesters.

The only way that the King's Guard is going to do as they did at the Tower of Joy is if Jon is legitmate, which makes marriage the likeliest. It is unlikely that Aerys would legitmize him. The King's Guard has but one vow, to have at least one member with the king. Ned's conversation with them points out that the King, the Crown Prince, and Aegon are dead. Ned offers them free passage to Dragonstone to guard "prince" Viserys, which they decline. The reader must dig for the clues, but they are there, Jon is legitimate, and Lyanna and Rhaegar were married to accomplish this feat.

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Look, I'm not invested in R + L either way. If he is he is if he's not he's not. I find the extra step to R + L being married quite hard to swallow, though, for various reasons, most significantly of all being Rhaegar's entire purpose for the mad stunt he pulled, which seems to be from all evidence that he felt he needed to have a child by Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. But that prophecy is related to The Others, NOT the Iron Throne. I don't see any way in which Rhaegar marrying Lyanna is required or needed for what Rhaegar was trying to accomplish and accordingly don't see why Rhaegar would think to marry her.

It reeks to me of people trying to twist it into a luvvy duvvy wuvvy womance plot rather than truly looking for evidence in the text. There's strong evidence - if you take a long time gathering it - that Jon may be Rhaegar's son. There's NOT strong evidence that Rhaegar married Lyanna.

I'm not sure if Rhaegar knew what the song of ice and fire referred to if it does in fact refer to a war with the Others. It hasn't been noted yet that Rhaegar ever expressed concerns over the NW/Wall or the Others.

Anyways I don't think Rhaegar showed interest in Lyanna just because of the prophecy. If Elia wasn't already pregnant by the time of Harrenhal then Rhaegar had already shown interest in Lyanna before he started to think that he needed the third head of the dragon. Aegon was born the following year so I think the night he was conceived where the comet showed up wasn't until after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

If he didn't marry her then she would just be his mistress and that would have damaged her reputation. I think if he truly did love her then he would have considered that.

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I feel this way about Arya, who hasn't been relevant to the plot for about three books. Theon's immediate actions could have huge consequences in the North and his death huge consequences in the Iron Islands. If Arya dies tomorrow... help me out here? I can't fathom what difference it'll make save her fans will cry.

grasping at straws her so u have to compare my post to my name...

Theons still a pussy, what effect does he have on the iron islands, he is to beat up and broken for his own kin to take him seriously. say he lives and asha takes him back to overthrow Euron, i be the people take one look at theon and go "hell no".

he can make an impact on the north by telling that bran and rickon are alive, or telling arya is a fake, and if he told that he would just get her killed.

But at the end of the day will they even have enough trust in him to think he is telling the truth.

I think he is a dead man, and an over due one at that.

I hope his death helps Stannis gain full control of the north.

That would actually make him usefull

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I seriously disagree with a lot of this post.

Stannis would never have Bran or Rickon killed. He would not do that just out of principle, let alone the fact that if he did have them killed, it would cost them the north. Stannis knows a son of Eddard Stark, is key to gaining the North. That's why Stannis was so persistent on getting Jon to be Lord of Winterfell (Stannis thought Jon was the last son of Eddard Stark).

Also Stannis wouldn't keep Branor Rickon as Hostages, and he would not treat them "harsh" nor would he "look down on them". First off, why would he "look down on them" or treat them "harsh"??? What has Bran or Rickon done, to cause Stannis to "treat them" like this?

Second off, Stannis would not do this in the first place, because it would not get him the support he needs from the North.

If anything, if Stannis finds out that Bran and Rickon are alive, he would leave them under the care of a loyal Northern Lord (most likely Manderly, once some light has been shed on everything Manderly has done to get Rickon).

Besides Stannis has much more important things to take care, instead of babysitting Bran and Rickon as his "Hostages/Wards". Like fighting the Others for example.

In short Stannis would leave Bran and Rickon in Winterfell, under Manderly's supervision(Manderly is to fat to do much else, so it's not like he will be expected to personally lead Manderly soldiers into battle), and Stannis would go back to fighting the real enemy at the Wall, the Others.

fyi Theon was heald as a Ward, to insure his father did not start another Rebellion, so I don't understand comparing Bran and Rickon as "Wards" to Stannis, as the same thing as Theon being a Ward to Ned. Bran and Rickons father is dead, and so is Robb, and Jon is a sworn Brother of The Nights Watch, so how can they be compared to Ned, who is going to Start a rebellion, if Stannis doesn't hold them as Wards??? The answer would be nobody. There is just absolutely no reason for Stannis to keep them as hostages, opposed to Stannis making one of them Lord of Winterfell to raise the North for Stannis. (Stannis is the Norths only friend, that is fighting for the North, it makes no sense that the North would fight against him at this point, because Stannis on the Iron Throne, is a lot better for the North then anyone else contending for the Crown at this point.)

for starters Stannis looks down and is harsh to everyone. I CLEARLY said if he couldnt find a use for them(this is a down the road kind of statement, Stannis isn't stupid and i never claimed him to be, he will get the full use of them, it could be after he gains the throne if he ever does), they would die, and its true, if they out live their use they would die. If Theon out lived his usefulness Ned wouldnt kill him.

and it would be the smart thing to do, the north is to loyal to the starks, use the boys to the max, and then replace them with someone of your choice, who is loyal to you and you alone.

My god you write 3 paragraphs about taking me out of contex.

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I don't think it is that important that Jon can be proven to be R+L, or them being married. This is not going to be a court like situation in KL, where people are going to listen to all the evidence, and if it's solid, they'll be like: "OK, I guess the throne is his now". Only Ned would do that, and he's dead...

With all we know, KL is up for a major remodeling, Varys made sure of that in the end of ADWD. The important part would be to convince Jon himself that he is in fact R+L, and maybe a few people around him. Howland Reed could easily do that, or maybe Bran by means of the World Wide Weirwood. Then it's all a question of how much momentum he can gain for him, and where he is going with it. I sincerely doubt that he will make a claim to the throne (which is still a Baratheon thing, not a Targaryen), I just can't see all this prophecy going around just to get another contestant into the game of thrones. I think if Jon realizes what he is, he will use this to rally people to the cause against the Others, and this will be his place in the books.

(there be crackpot from here on) For speculation, I think Jon is going to be out of the game for a while (maybe all of TWOW), and we will see the Others wreak havoc in the north. I can easily see Melisandre, after fleeing the onslought, realizing Jon is AA and embarking on an epic journey back to the wall to revive him, only to find his body soul-less and thus needing to find Ghost. Somehow I think he'll turn up in Winterfell, so she'll be on another epic journey to get him. Epic journeys that just don't ever get there are kind of GRRM's thing, right?

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grasping at straws her so u have to compare my post to my name...

Theons still a pussy, what effect does he have on the iron islands, he is to beat up and broken for his own kin to take him seriously. say he lives and asha takes him back to overthrow Euron, i be the people take one look at theon and go "hell no".

he can make an impact on the north by telling that bran and rickon are alive, or telling arya is a fake, and if he told that he would just get her killed.

But at the end of the day will they even have enough trust in him to think he is telling the truth.

I think he is a dead man, and an over due one at that.

I hope his death helps Stannis gain full control of the north.

That would actually make him usefull

Did you miss the entire kingsmoot sub-plot? I'm not dissing, just asking. Theon is critical to the future of the Iron Islands, because without him Euron Crow's Eye is the one true king of the Ironborn. Theon is in no position to rule, but he is the legitimate offspring of Balon Greyjoy and his absence from the Kingsmoot makes it illegal and thus allows them to kick Euron off the chair. Or at least to call another Kingsmoot. I'm not actually sure what the next step is as it hasn't been clearly enunciated. Either way, it's the only chance the Ironborn have of ending this without being wiped out.

You wouldn't be the only person who hates everything to do with the Ironborn, but there's no question Martin considers them important, and that's why Theon is more important alive than dead. He's relatively irrelevant as far as the North plotline goes beyond his ability to affect what happens with the Greyjoys and revealing Jeyne's identity. But in the end, that is going to be superceded by the return of Rickon Stark anyway.

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The only way that the King's Guard is going to do as they did at the Tower of Joy is if Jon is legitmate, which makes marriage the likeliest. It is unlikely that Aerys would legitmize him. The King's Guard has but one vow, to have at least one member with the king. Ned's conversation with them points out that the King, the Crown Prince, and Aegon are dead. Ned offers them free passage to Dragonstone to guard "prince" Viserys, which they decline. The reader must dig for the clues, but they are there, Jon is legitimate, and Lyanna and Rhaegar were married to accomplish this feat.

LOL ... I said up thread that this is not a R+L=J thread but a thread for the Gift Chapter ... but I can't resist reacting.

MtnLion, you are very entitled to your belief that there is no other explanation for the presence of the Kings Guard. None. Not possible, believable, probable.

I can fully understand you believe it and for the sake of the story and for many other boarders who are without any doubt this is in fact true, I hope this will be proven true. For in this line of thought Rhaegar and Lyanna being married is essential for Jon being legitimate. This would be nice, considering all the other possible heirs in or on their way to Westeros.

There are people on this board - I am one of them - who have stated with references to what is given in the novels that there is room to include an other explanation for the presence of the Kingsguard.

You evidently do not believe this, that is okay of course. :D I like the way you are fully confident of this and hold to your belief.

As long as there is no absolute proof for this belief and considering its importance for the storyline if it is true however, I think it is fair to new readers on this board to state that there is room to look at it from multiple perspectives.

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So noone considers it a possibility that Jon will be the leader of the Others (ice) and Daenerys the AA (fire)?

Joined as a force to fight the Others, take over Westeros, or clashing against each other?

I think many already recognize Jon as Ice and Dany as Fire, but the disagreements increase after that.

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