[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[Melifeather]

Everybody believes in the Ice-Lake trap, and I do too, and honestly, I cant wait to read this scene !

I wonder via who will we see it ?

Theon ? Asha ? .....

yea I think this is going to be a great battle. Any way stannis could set the edge of the lake on fire forceing the enemy father on to the ice while the heat melts it? Wouldn't it be cool if some how the this would be the batte of fire. I think if theo is still alive we get views from both if not I think we see it thur the eyes of Asha.

It's something I've never understood.

Why did Cersei never consider paying the Iron Bank with the Lannister gold ? oO

She was the Lady of the Rock...

If GRRM inserts anything to do with "ice traps", I do hope that it is something believeable. As someone that lives in Minnesota and just came home last night from a weekend of ice fishing at Lake of the Woods I can report that the ice there was roughly 30 inches thick! (2 1/2 feet).

I was thinking that Cersei didn't want to use Lannister gold to repay the "realm's" debt as she wasn't taking ownership for that debt.

[Pliskin]

I was thinking that Cersei didn't want to use Lannister gold to repay the "realm's" debt as she wasn't taking ownership for that debt.

I suppose I shouldn't try to find other answers than the evident one "Cersei is stupid" when it comes to those existential questions about her behaviour...

[Melifeather]

I suppose I shouldn't try to find other answers than the evident one "Cersei is stupid" when it comes to those existential questions about her behaviour...

You thought my answer was equivalent to "Cersei is stupid"? While she may be "Lady" of Casterly Rock, she is not "Lord", and even with her father dead, she cannot take control over Casterly Rock's assets. Tyrion is now effectively "Lord", since Jaime is in the Kingsguard.

[Pliskin]

You thought my answer was equivalent to "Cersei is stupid"? She also is not "Lord" of Casterly Rock. Even with her father dead, she cannot take control over Casterly Rock.

I don't know if you meant it with your answer. But for me, her decision was stupid. And I don't understand it. Like all her ruling.

And why isn't she the Lady of Casterly Rock ?

IIRC, she named a castellan. But she's technically the head of House Lannister now.

[Timmay]

Apologies if I am repeating things said in the other 3 threads on this topic. I am late to the discussion. But I had a couple thoughts I wanted to post.

Varamyr’s chapter taught us how hard it is to SkinChange a normal person. All the previous discussion about Asha being SC’d by Bran I just cannot buy into. The only human skinchange we’ve seen is Bran into Hodor. Bran has the skill and power, but his subject is “weak of mind”. I have never thought of Asha as weak of mind. But if the execution scene at the tree does take place, a character who has been broken (weak of mind?) will be present. Could Bran SC into Theon from the tree at that scene? I consider this MUCH more likely than Asha. (Was this discussed in the previous 3 threads?) Bran, Bran, it rhymes with Stan...

He could then start spewing all kinds of knowledge desiguised as Theon to save Theons life.

I am not so sure Stan(nis) will be so quick to give up Theon from the flames to the tree though.

“Stannis Baratheon paced the floor. The TOWER was a small one, dank and cramped. A few steps brought the king around to Theon. “

"Unchain me, and I will serve you." (Prince Theon, son of King of the Pyke.)

"As you served Roose Bolton and Robb Stark?" Stannis snorted. "I think not. We have a WARMER end in mind for you, turncloak. “

From aCoK House of the Undying: “From a stone tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...mother of dragons...slayer of lies... “

King’s Blood for the flames? To raise the Dragon from stone as Mel has been begging for?

“Give me the boy”

A Stone Dragon by the name of Turncloak. Wouldn’t that be fun.

[Melifeather]

I don't know if you meant it with your answer. But for me, her decision was stupid. And I don't understand it. Like all her ruling.

And why isn't she the Lady of Casterly Rock ?

IIRC, she named a castellan. But she's technically the head of House Lannister now.

I agree that Cersei's decision was stupid, but I came to the conclusion that she did not feel ownership of the debt, that somehow she didn't feel like the realm's debt was Lannister debt. The book mentions a few times that the realm is indebited to the Lannisters because they "borrowed" from them.

I think Tywin left the line of inheiritance "cloudy". But, historically (in this book), the eldest male inheirits, which would have been Jaime, but he cannot inheirit because he's in the Kingsguard. I know Tywin did not want Tyrion to inheirit Casterly Rock, but he does have the legal claim. None of the Lannisters know whether Tyrion is alive or dead, so we still don't know how this inheiritance will work out now that Tywin is gone.

Plus...didn't Cersei need money to build ships and that was why she was delaying payment to the bank?

[Eejit]

You thought my answer was equivalent to "Cersei is stupid"? While she may be "Lady" of Casterly Rock, she is not "Lord", and even with her father dead, she cannot take control over Casterly Rock's assets. Tyrion is now effectively "Lord", since Jaime is in the Kingsguard.

Tyrion has been found guilty of treason under the current regime, he's currently further from being Lord of Casterly Rock than Jaime is.

[Melifeather]

Tyrion has been found guilty of treason under the current regime, he's currently further from being Lord of Casterly Rock than Jaime is.

It is known. :P I had forgotten that! It's been months since I've read aDwD. I'm getting around to a re-read of all books. However, lets put aside Cersei's claim to Casterly Rock and examine why she basically defaulted on the loan. It was because she wanted money to build ships. Did the Lannister family have enough to fund both the realm's payment and money for ships? I don't know, but I'm guessing "probably". Why didn't Cersei use Lannister gold to pay both? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of asking our President to use his own money to pay our country's debt?

[Fragile Bird]

Anyone who's read the same books as Martin I think :D

I've heard that metaphor used for plagues many times. It could be a British thing. They're associated with death and Death in the Bible rides a pale horse... well, the metaphor builds itself from thereon out.

Yes, Pale horse, pale rider! Roose is the pale rider - Mr. Death himself!

[Ghost714]

It is known. :P I had forgotten that! It's been months since I've read aDwD. I'm getting around to a re-read of all books. However, lets put aside Cersei's claim to Casterly Rock and examine why she basically defaulted on the loan. It was because she wanted money to build ships. Did the Lannister family have enough to fund both the realm's payment and money for ships? I don't know, but I'm guessing "probably". Why didn't Cersei use Lannister gold to pay both? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of asking our President to use his own money to pay our country's debt?

Cersei could have easily payed for everything with Lannister gold, but in her mind that's her gold, and in her mind why use her gold, when she can use the Crowns gold(the people of Westeros's gold)

[Fragile Bird]

@Timmay

As I said, GRRM will throw a curve at us, I feel it in my bones. That's a great thought, that Theon is weak of mind at this point and Bran could step into him!

Yes, Stannis wants to burn Theon, but like I also said, Asha is goading him about going to the weirwood, and knowing Asha, she ain't shy about saying that to every North man she runs into. "I want you to spare my brother, but if you can't, do JUSTICE to the Starks and kill him in front of a weirwood", because she has a feeling in her bones too that the weirwood is important.

I also like the idea of a murder of crows showing up and crying out Theon's name and saying spare him, spare him, or something like that.

Edit: Sorry, my bad, ravens, not crows. It's just that I love the the way a gathering of crows is a "murder"!.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

I think your underestimating the power of bran and the old gods to the north. If the tree talks to the them when Theo is to be executed and I am shore Stannis would have northerners there to see Theo killed. I think any northman there would except that without question. Remember this is there gods we are talking about. None of them have ever been talked to by there god. Stannis would have to follow there wish's. Even though he does not follow the old gods, hearing them talk to him might make him question what he believes in.

It seems to me Bran\Bloodraven just need to convince Theon to take the black. If Theon's lead before the weirwood to be executed and loudly proclaims to all assembled that he will take the black--and its backed up by various B\B omens--then I think it more likely than not that the Stannis and the Northman will let Theon take the black. Or maybe Asha will get the idea, as its better for her brother to take the black then get burned or beheaded. My guess is that Theon's going to be sent to the wall, along with some other prisoners.

[FanTasy]

It is known. :P I had forgotten that! It's been months since I've read aDwD. I'm getting around to a re-read of all books. However, lets put aside Cersei's claim to Casterly Rock and examine why she basically defaulted on the loan. It was because she wanted money to build ships. Did the Lannister family have enough to fund both the realm's payment and money for ships? I don't know, but I'm guessing "probably". Why didn't Cersei use Lannister gold to pay both? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of asking our President to use his own money to pay our country's debt?

Good question. Never thought about it.

Well, technically and I suppose legally Cersei as Lady of Casterley Rock, of House Lannister, was not obliged to pay the debt of the ruling house, House Baratheon, with Lannister assets. The king, her son, is a Baratheon :drunk:

[Arkash]

If GRRM inserts anything to do with "ice traps", I do hope that it is something believeable. As someone that lives in Minnesota and just came home last night from a weekend of ice fishing at Lake of the Woods I can report that the ice there was roughly 30 inches thick! (2 1/2 feet).

With an army of heavy men, horses... I think the ice may crack quite easily !

[Lady Octarina]

Good question. Never thought about it.

Well, technically and I suppose legally Cersei as Lady of Casterley Rock, of House Lannister, was not obliged to pay the debt of the ruling house, House Baratheon, with Lannister assets. The king, her son, is a Baratheon :drunk:

Yes, but at the same time, if we think about our Middle Ages, there if no difference between private and public property in the king's case - the king and the realm are one body, in a way. Tommen is a Baratheon, but he is also a Lannister, it would actually be his obligation (more moral than juridical) to pay his "father's" debts with his own money. Which is why Melisandra's parallel with the president paying the public debt wouldn't work, it's a different world. So, yes, Cersei not paying it is just another way of showing that she isn't as concerned about the realm as about herself and preserving her own power (through the wrong choices, but she's not aware of that).

[Melifeather]

With an army of heavy men, horses... I think the ice may crack quite easily !

The DNR flew over Lake of the Woods on Saturday and estimated 10,000 ice fishing houses were on the Minnesota side. That's not counting the people, pickup trucks, cars, ATV's, snowmobiles, etc., and they did not include ice houses on the Canadian side.

Lake ice starts to form when daily average temperatures are below freezing and will continue to thicken as temperatures get colder. In the story, we've already learned that its cold and there's been lots of snow. Snow can have an insulating effect, but if it has been below freezing for an extended period of time, there shouldn't be any danger of rotten ice. If Stannis's men were to cut holes in the ice, it would be quite the chore without proper equipment.

[Lady Octarina]

The DNR flew over Lake of the Woods on Saturday and estimated 10,000 ice fishing houses were on the Minnesota side. That's not counting the people, pickup trucks, cars, ATV's, snowmobiles, etc., and they did not include ice houses on the Canadian side.

Lake ice starts to form when daily average temperatures are below freezing and will continue to thicken as temperatures get colder. In the story, we've already learned that its cold and there's been lots of snow. Snow can have an insulating effect, but if it has been below freezing for an extended period of time, there shouldn't be any danger of rotten ice. If Stannis's men were to cut holes in the ice, it would be quite the chore without proper equipment.

I don't understand much (or, rather, I understand nothing) about snow, ice, etc, but when I read the Theon chapter, I thought they were going to warm the lake ice somehow, to make it more fragile when Bolton's army comes. Is that even possible, to use fire that way? His men worship Rh'llor, so I thought that might be a fitting solution...

[Melifeather]

I don't understand much (or, rather, I understand nothing) about snow, ice, etc, but when I read the Theon chapter, I thought they were going to warm the lake ice somehow, to make it more fragile when Bolton's army comes. Is that even possible, to use fire that way? His men worship Rh'llor, so I thought that might be a fitting solution...

I am looking forward to reading how this is handled. I just hope that it is handled in a way that I find realistic, because my experience with ice is different than what is imagined by people who live in warmer states. My job enables me to speak with people from different parts of the country every day, and lately I've been faced with explaining "ice and ice fishing" to several, more southern people. They seem to believe that ice is a lot thinner than it actually is, and I gather that there are people on this discussion board who live in a warmer area than I and are wondering how people are able to drive out on it and not fall in. So, the idea of Stannis luring the Bolton army out onto "rotten ice" or ice that has been compromised with fire is easier to imagine for them than it is for me.

[Jory]

I have a question.

"My brother's debts," the king was muttering. "Joffrey's too, though that baseborn abomination was no kin to me." Theon twisted in his chains. He knew that voice. Stannis.

Why does Theon know Stannis' voice? O_O

[Chise]

Why does Theon know Stannis' voice? O_O

well, by the time we've joined into this scene, its pretty safe to assume Theon has been around Stannis for at least a day or two. You know, after being handed over to him, chained up to the wall, maybe yelled at before he passed out....