[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[Jory]

well, by the time we've joined into this scene, its pretty safe to assume Theon has been around Stannis for at least a day or two. You know, after being handed over to him, chained up to the wall, maybe yelled at before he passed out....

Good point >_>

[Fallyn Snow]

I am looking forward to reading how this is handled. I just hope that it is handled in a way that I find realistic, because my experience with ice is different than what is imagined by people who live in warmer states. My job enables me to speak with people from different parts of the country every day, and lately I've been faced with explaining "ice and ice fishing" to several, more southern people. They seem to believe that ice is a lot thinner than it actually is, and I gather that there are people on this discussion board who live in a warmer area than I and are wondering how people are able to drive out on it and not fall in. So, the idea of Stannis luring the Bolton army out onto "rotten ice" or ice that has been compromised with fire is easier to imagine for them than it is for me.

The citadel only began sending the white ravens heralding winter, so while the lakes have frozen over, they might not have had time for the ice to thicken. Also, aren't there hot springs in Winterfell that keep it warm throughout the winter? Maybe there are some in the surrounding area as well.

[Ghost714]

The citadel only began sending the white ravens heralding winter, so while the lakes have frozen over, they might not have had time for the ice to thicken. Also, aren't there hot springs in Winterfell that keep it warm throughout the winter? Maybe there are some in the surrounding area as well.

Yeah and in one of Asha's POV chapters it says stuff about cutting holes in the lake for fishing, and how they fished out the lake. So obviously it's possible to cut through the ice, in the story.

Also back in the day, to make really big bath tubs have hot water, they use to take stones that had been in a fire for a long time, and they would put the stones in this little cage thing in a dug out hole at the bottom of the bath tub. It was an old school hot tub basically. My point is maybe Stannis can do something like this to weaken the ice? Or maybe he can cut huge outlines in the ice, so the ice looks normal, but when you step on one side of the ice, it acts as a "trap door effect", because the ice would lift up on the opposite side that your standing on, and your side would go down. I dunno something like that...

[Abel]

i wondered why to spare theon, he told asha everything he knew. there`s a purpose for doing this, george has a need to get rid of characters and there is certainly something important behind the beheading stuff in front of weirwoods since bran saw it in that vision.

if bran wants theon to die? probably not.

BR? pobably yes. for activating/strenghening something.

but if theon is actually going to die this way, while bran watching it or for bran, would it technically be a stark beheading someone .... cause you know what`s happening then ... ;)

[Kuragin]

As someone else who lives in an area where there are proper winters the idea of army falling through a lake sheeted in ice is a wee bit absurd an one I hope doesn't happen, much more fun is a battle on a frozen lake, with the blood of the dead soaking into the ice...

For the person talking about a group of crows being a murder, ravens in a group are an unkindness.

[jon rr stark]

You don't provide a quote, but I'll assume you are discussing Massey. He was instructed not to come back without the sellswords Stannis needs. I doubt he will find them in Bravos, so he will need to go elsewhere. I expect he will also hear a lot about dragons and will know that, if they exist, they are the best weapon to bring back (along with Dany, of course), if that is at all possible. In any case, I expect him to turn south in his search. Meeting Dany or Moqorro is a strong possibility, IMO...or not. GRRM is not all that predictable.

I'll add my vote on the issue of prophesy that has come up lately. I like it a lot. It adds another dimension to the story. i also very much like stories where past knowledge is dredged up again by referring to old and forgotten books (or meeting people like the CotF who have knowledge forgotten by most of the main characters).. I hope Sam gets into that research in a big way.

Yes, I can see him having to go find some companys since they all appear to be going east to Danys war. But If he has the cash which he has any companies left can come to him. Also if companies are engaged by Volantis he would have to outbid them. I dont realy know how it will shake out. But the fact that he is in bravos whith lots of dosh will be known by the faceless men and why he is collecting men, namely for a war in the North. I think this information will not go unoticed by Arya hence a meeting is likely. So Massey returning with the real Arya will by default get Stannis a Northern army plus bring out Sansa and perhaps the vale with its game changing intact army. I cant see Dany doing any deals with Massey as she will see Stannis as an usurper and Massey will see Dany as a threat to Stannis's throne.

[jon rr stark]

As someone else who lives in an area where there are proper winters the idea of army falling through a lake sheeted in ice is a wee bit absurd an one I hope doesn't happen, much more fun is a battle on a frozen lake, with the blood of the dead soaking into the ice...

For the person talking about a group of crows being a murder, ravens in a group are an unkindness.

The falling through ice bit might be prompted by all the hole that were dug in in to fish out the lake therefore leaving a weakness. Alternatively an ambush on the purposely weakened ice.

[Fragile Bird]

For the person talking about a group of crows being a murder, ravens in a group are an unkindness.

Yes, of course, thank-you. An Unkindness of Ravens was a Ruth Rendell mystery with Inspector Wexford, one of my favourite British detective series. :D

[Fragile Bird]

i wondered why to spare theon, he told asha everything he knew. there`s a purpose for doing this, george has a need to get rid of characters and there is certainly something important behind the beheading stuff in front of weirwoods since bran saw it in that vision.

if bran wants theon to die? probably not.

BR? pobably yes. for activating/strenghening something.

but if theon is actually going to die this way, while bran watching it or for bran, would it technically be a stark beheading someone .... cause you know what`s happening then ... ;)

I don't think Theon will be executed, I think there will be a reveal at the weirwood that Bran and Rickon are still alive, either by a voice from the tree, or from a bunch of ravens who show up. Or, as mentioned earlier here, by Bran taking over Theon in his weakened condition. And this would be done in front of the North men who would be there to witness the execution.

The whole reason for my belief is that I think Theon has survived so far for some purpose. There are also strong arguments that Asha needs him for her destiny.

[Dohogerse]

I don't think Theon will be executed, I think there will be a reveal at the weirwood that Bran and Rickon are still alive, either by a voice from the tree, or from a bunch of ravens who show up. Or, as mentioned earlier here, by Bran taking over Theon in his weakened condition. And this would be done in front of the North men who would be there to witness the execution.

The whole reason for my belief is that I think Theon has survived so far for some purpose. There are also strong arguments that Asha needs him for her destiny.

May i ask what is Ashas destiny? Is their some kind of theory?

[Fragile Bird]

May i ask what is Ashas destiny? Is their some kind of theory?

She needs to take him back home so the rightful ruler can be chosen by the assembled Iron men. There are threads on this topic, and I think it's been touched on in the early pages of this one.

[Lady Octarina]

She needs to take him back home so the rightful ruler can be chosen by the assembled Iron men. There are threads on this topic, and I think it's been touched on in the early pages of this one.

Well, she needs him for that, certainly, but that doesn't mean she's getting what she wants. Honestly, about the Iron Islands, I see either a tsunami washing them out of existence or Asha's uncle becoming ruler. Much less predictable than a new king's moot, therefore much more likely to happen :devil:

[Ice Turtle]

Well, she needs him for that, certainly, but that doesn't mean she's getting what she wants. Honestly, about the Iron Islands, I see either a tsunami washing them out of existence or Asha's uncle becoming ruler. Much less predictable than a new king's moot, therefore much more likely to happen :devil:

Whoever will end up on the iron throne should sold or rent the whole islands to Braavos, they have good enough fleet to keep ironborn under control, even if their city is so far away. More realistically, I think that there is a chance that Asha may form some kind of alliance with Braavos, Euron is a slaver after all.

[iamthedave]

Yes, Pale horse, pale rider! Roose is the pale rider - Mr. Death himself!

Quite.

Is the etymology of Pale Mare ever explained? I mean, Black Death is kind of obvious as names go, and descriptive. You grow black bits and then you die. But 'Pale Mare'? Okay they go pale before dying, but do they neigh like horses on the way out? Do they trot on all fours or something?

*deactivates over-thinking mode*

Well, she needs him for that, certainly, but that doesn't mean she's getting what she wants. Honestly, about the Iron Islands, I see either a tsunami washing them out of existence or Asha's uncle becoming ruler. Much less predictable than a new king's moot, therefore much more likely to happen :devil:

Victarion becoming ruler of the Ironborn is one of the worst conceivable outcomes. Better just have a tsunami do it. He has no imagination whatsoever, and he was being pushed so heavily by Aeron Dampbrain because he was all about bringing back 'The Old Way'. In other words making them all be yar yar I be a pirate.

Theon and Asha are pretty much the Ironborn's only chance. Actually Euron would have been, too. If you listen to his dialogue he clearly recognizes that the Old Way is lost and won't work. The difference is that Asha wants her people to thrive in peace.

[Prince of the North]

Quite.

Is the etymology of Pale Mare ever explained? I mean, Black Death is kind of obvious as names go, and descriptive. You grow black bits and then you die. But 'Pale Mare'? Okay they go pale before dying, but do they neigh like horses on the way out? Do they trot on all fours or something?

*deactivates over-thinking mode*

I think it's just an allusion to the Pale Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse#Pale_or_Green_Horse) of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse right out of Revelations.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

I think it's just an allusion to the Pale Horse (http://en.wikipedia...._or_Green_Horse) of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse right out of Revelations.

I don't think Revelations is published in Westeros... So this explanation is unsatisfactory.

[Fragile Bird]

I don't think Revelations is published in Westeros... So this explanation is unsatisfactory.

So, Pale Horse is explained, and I don't remember an explanation for Pale Mare in the books, so right now I'm assuming most readers can make the leap.

[Melifeather]

I understood "pale mare" as an infectious disease also, just as in the Apocalypse.

[Fragile Bird]

I understood "pale mare" as an infectious disease also, just as in the Apocalypse.

Agreed, but Bong of Ice and Fire (now that has to be difficult to smoke) wants to know where the explanation of the term is, since they weren't reading the Bible in Westeros et al.

:bowdown: That's a wicked signature line Mel!

[Melifeather]

Agreed, but Bong of Ice and Fire (now that has to be difficult to smoke) wants to know where the explanation of the term is, since they weren't reading the Bible in Westeros et al.

:bowdown: That's a wicked signature line Mel!

The Bible was supposedly written prior to medieval Westeros and much of it are parables which were meant as simple and memorable stories to make a point or teach a lesson. I know many claim that Revelations is encrypted, but I think the symbolism would have made sense to the people that lived at that time. Pale or white horses have roots in mythology as well. White horses are rarer than other colors and are associated as being divine or having prophetic meaning. In Celtic mythology the white horse is deadly and supernatural.

Thanks for the kudos re: signature line about the Freys. There are many references to Freys in these discussion boards. Some people going so far as to keep a running list of Freys and striking lines through their names as they're killed off!