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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4


Angalin

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Oh I think I will be disappointed, too, because the story is increasingly narrowing down to an anti-political big bad plot that leaves no room for such machinations. But you never know. Martin could pull a twist in vision and prophecy rather than bow to the increasingly tedious press of 'necessity'. This is why I hate prophecy in fantasy. It's over-used, and it narrows things down.

I'm not dreading an invasion of The Others, I'm expecting it. Wearily, in fact, because I've known it's going to happen for several books. So when it happens... what? I get the satisfaction of knowing a vision given four books ago was fulfilled?

It's like reading spoilers, only the writer really wants me to read them first. Rather baffling to me, but I know I'm unusual in this regard and most other readers get a kick out of prophetic warblings. Honestly the thing which is bothering me more than anything else is the way Martin keeps giving these prophecies and visions and then inserts some off-handed line from somebody about how prophecy can't be trusted... only we all know that every single vision and prophecy given so far as come to pass with the exception of the Stallion Who Mounts the World.

I do dislike prophecy as a plot driver, but if you're going to use it at least don't pretend you're not.

I'm kind of waiting for Martin to show me prophecies failing instead of having characters tell me it repeatedly. I'm not convinced and it's not ramping up the tension for me to see prophecies fulfilled that I'm fully aware will be.

/rant

Anyway, I'll still enjoy what twisty turny political tidbits he throws my way.

I greatly disagree aout the use of "Prophecy" in fiction. To me, it adds a great deal of depth and mystery to the story. The readers, as well as the characters, must spend a lot of time deciphering them as the story unfolds. As for the Others, we all know the Others are going to attack, but not because of Prophecy but beacuse, what else are they going to do? They are there for a reason and it can't be to simply slaughter the wildlings and give Jon Snow something to do.

Also, there are many prophecies in this great story that have not been figured out yet and that is with an internet full of avid, careful readers dissecting every single one of them. Martin's use of prophecy is quite amazing and adds a great deal of depth and imagination to the books. Not to mention, Prophecy adds motivation and depth to his characters.

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Oh I think I will be disappointed, too, because the story is increasingly narrowing down to an anti-political big bad plot that leaves no room for such machinations. But you never know. Martin could pull a twist in vision and prophecy rather than bow to the increasingly tedious press of 'necessity'. This is why I hate prophecy in fantasy. It's over-used, and it narrows things down.

I'm not dreading an invasion of The Others, I'm expecting it. Wearily, in fact, because I've known it's going to happen for several books. So when it happens... what? I get the satisfaction of knowing a vision given four books ago was fulfilled?

It's like reading spoilers, only the writer really wants me to read them first. Rather baffling to me, but I know I'm unusual in this regard and most other readers get a kick out of prophetic warblings. Honestly the thing which is bothering me more than anything else is the way Martin keeps giving these prophecies and visions and then inserts some off-handed line from somebody about how prophecy can't be trusted... only we all know that every single vision and prophecy given so far as come to pass with the exception of the Stallion Who Mounts the World.

I do dislike prophecy as a plot driver, but if you're going to use it at least don't pretend you're not.

I'm kind of waiting for Martin to show me prophecies failing instead of having characters tell me it repeatedly. I'm not convinced and it's not ramping up the tension for me to see prophecies fulfilled that I'm fully aware will be.

/rant

Anyway, I'll still enjoy what twisty turny political tidbits he throws my way.

Wow, yeah. I missed this post on my first read-through of the thread but, seriously, this is brilliant. Marwyn the Mage can say that prophecy is a snake or whatever all he likes.

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Even the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy may still end up happening, just not through Rhaego as the Dothraki originally thought.

In this series prophecy events virtually always end up occurring in some form. Occasionally, however, those trying to interpret predictions end up damaging themselves by trying to alter the outcome or force fulfillment. This is seen in the issue with the PTWP and with Cersei's fear of a valonqar/threatening younger queen. Both of these will almost certain transpire as foretold, though and reveal aspects of what is likely to happen in the coming books.

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Even the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy may still end up happening, just not through Rhaego as the Dothraki originally thought.

In this series prophecy events virtually always end up occurring in some form. Occasionally, however, those trying to interpret predictions end up damaging themselves by trying to alter the outcome or force fulfillment. This is seen in the issue with the PTWP and with Cersei's fear of a valonqar/threatening younger queen. Both of these will almost certain transpire as foretold, though and reveal aspects of what is likely to happen in the coming books.

How the prophocies will come to happen is what we are all guessing about in many of these threads. Is the younger more beautiful queen in Cersei's prophocey Dany, Margeary, Sansa, Arrianne, Asha, Marcella or someone we do not know yet? If we did not have the prophecy we would not have the discussion.

I agree that so far they always come true in some sort of fashion. Who would of thought the Pale Mare, in Dany's prophecy, would be the plague?

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I'm kind of waiting for Martin to show me prophecies failing instead of having characters tell me it repeatedly. I'm not convinced and it's not ramping up the tension for me to see prophecies fulfilled that I'm fully aware will be.

/rant

Anyway, I'll still enjoy what twisty turny political tidbits he throws my way.

Well, in the first book, Dany's unborn child was supposed to be the Stallion the Mounts the World. That prophecy didn't turn out so well, eh?

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Well, in the first book, Dany's unborn child was supposed to be the Stallion the Mounts the World. That prophecy didn't turn out so well, eh?

Ah, that was the interpretation of the prophecy. The stallion who mounts the world might still happen, just was not Drogo's and Dany's son.

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Well, in the first book, Dany's unborn child was supposed to be the Stallion the Mounts the World. That prophecy didn't turn out so well, eh?

Oh, but you see! The Stallion will not be her son, it will be ___________________________________________ (clever twist) (seemingly clever twist [Clever Twist {if I say this is a clever twist you will believe that it is a clever twist}]).

Prophecy is a real weakness of this series.

The Red Wedding prophecies are the most prominent through A Clash of Kings and the beginning of A Storm of Swords, and the actual event is literally choreographed. The only reason the RW came as such a shock was because the finality and certainty of prophecy had not yet been established but, by now, it has been.

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I just want to say that I love the prophecy aspect of aSoIaF. I believe that the prophecy stuff is one of the many things that makes aSoIaF the best book series I have ever read, and frankly, I would not have the story any other way, then the way GRRM has written it.

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I greatly disagree aout the use of "Prophecy" in fiction. To me, it adds a great deal of depth and mystery to the story. The readers, as well as the characters, must spend a lot of time deciphering them as the story unfolds. As for the Others, we all know the Others are going to attack, but not because of Prophecy but beacuse, what else are they going to do? They are there for a reason and it can't be to simply slaughter the wildlings and give Jon Snow something to do.

Also, there are many prophecies in this great story that have not been figured out yet and that is with an internet full of avid, careful readers dissecting every single one of them. Martin's use of prophecy is quite amazing and adds a great deal of depth and imagination to the books. Not to mention, Prophecy adds motivation and depth to his characters.

You don't need to spend that much time deciphering them. Very few of them are that uncertain. It's just we have a board full of people with A LOT of time on our hands between books so we go into detail on every little line. The broad events are obvious in every one of them.

The Others may try to attack, but that attack could be turned back. They might never breach the wall. Only we know they will because they have to reach the trident.

As I said, plenty of people like them. I don't for the aforementioned reasons. I feel they really suck the drama out of a lot of scenarios. I've never been worried about Cersei Lannister, for example, because I know that the valonquar is going to kill her and the books make it clear that said valonquar is her brother. Maybe it's Jaime, maybe it's Tyrion, but unless those two characters are in her vicinity Martin can throw a nuclear bomb at her and I won't buy it until he actually shows me the smoking corpse. Same with Dany in Meereen and especially Jon on the Wall.

Jon's death could have been one of the most dramatic events in the series. Instead it holds no dramatic tension at all because we know he has a larger role to fulfill and so we know he's coming back some way and even better the book clearly gives us visions suggesting how it will be accomplished. Hurray? Even if I read it wrong and the mechanics are different, there's already no tension to Jon's death because I have no reason whatsoever to believe it'll be permanent.

I think that's the point where prophecy and visions become too intrusive.

I find it much easier to get into the drama around characters who don't have some prophesied destriny because... well... I've got no idea what's going to happen to them. In some ways it's why I hope Arya gets moving at some point. She's got no obvious destiny associated so she could end up doing pretty much anything. Or dying at any time. Very easy to get invested in.

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You don't need to spend that much time deciphering them. Very few of them are that uncertain. It's just we have a board full of people with A LOT of time on our hands between books so we go into detail on every little line. The broad events are obvious in every one of them.

The Others may try to attack, but that attack could be turned back. They might never breach the wall. Only we know they will because they have to reach the trident.

As I said, plenty of people like them. I don't for the aforementioned reasons. I feel they really suck the drama out of a lot of scenarios. I've never been worried about Cersei Lannister, for example, because I know that the valonquar is going to kill her and the books make it clear that said valonquar is her brother. Maybe it's Jaime, maybe it's Tyrion, but unless those two characters are in her vicinity Martin can throw a nuclear bomb at her and I won't buy it until he actually shows me the smoking corpse. Same with Dany in Meereen and especially Jon on the Wall.

Jon's death could have been one of the most dramatic events in the series. Instead it holds no dramatic tension at all because we know he has a larger role to fulfill and so we know he's coming back some way and even better the book clearly gives us visions suggesting how it will be accomplished. Hurray? Even if I read it wrong and the mechanics are different, there's already no tension to Jon's death because I have no reason whatsoever to believe it'll be permanent.

I think that's the point where prophecy and visions become too intrusive.

I find it much easier to get into the drama around characters who don't have some prophesied destriny because... well... I've got no idea what's going to happen to them. In some ways it's why I hope Arya gets moving at some point. She's got no obvious destiny associated so she could end up doing pretty much anything. Or dying at any time. Very easy to get invested in.

I was not that way with Cersei. We are now 5 books in and have a pretty good grasp on her destiny, same with most of the characters. It is not because of prophecy but because we are 5 books in and we have been able to decipher a lot of the prophecies. So we know (if the prophecy is correct) that Dany meets the others at the Trident. But how do the Others get there? Who do they kill along the way? What happens to Mel, Stannis, Jon, Bran and all the other charatcers north of the Trident? What happens when Dany meets the others at the Trident? Who is fighting on her side and who is with the others?

To me the prophecy does not take away from the story at all. If the others were turned away at the wall they would have been created for no reason. I have gathered much enjoyment from the Prophecy aspect of aSoFaI.

Also remember what Arch Maester Marwyn told Samwell about prophecies. "Prophecy will bite your dick off everytime." Is it possible George is setting us all up with all these prophecies? It sounds like everyone has bought into them.

Still, I enjoy them but I do not fully trust them. That is a personal opinion of course.

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@iamthedave

I agree with most of your points, but it's like someone has already said (I don't remember if on this thread or somewhere else): we only know Jon is not dead, nothing will happen to Daenerys for a while and Cersei is safe as long as neither Jaime nor Tyrion are around because we're obsessive fans. The casual reader probably felt all the impact of Jon's death, probably thought Cersei could die at the hands of the Faith, and are most likely anxious about what will happen to Daenerys considering the cliffhanger we got. And most readers are casual, these lovely on-line discussions shouldn't take that off our minds. And who knows? Since prophecies are always backfiring, maybe Daenerys will die before getting to westeros, maybe Cersei's valonqar is someone else's brother, etc...

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@iamthedave

I agree with most of your points, but it's like someone has already said (I don't remember if on this thread or somewhere else): we only know Jon is not dead, nothing will happen to Daenerys for a while and Cersei is safe as long as neither Jaime nor Tyrion are around because we're obsessive fans. The casual reader probably felt all the impact of Jon's death, probably thought Cersei could die at the hands of the Faith, and are most likely anxious about what will happen to Daenerys considering the cliffhanger we got. And most readers are casual, these lovely on-line discussions shouldn't take that off our minds. And who knows? Since prophecies are always backfiring, maybe Daenerys will die before getting to westeros, maybe Cersei's valonqar is someone else's brother, etc...

Lady Octarina, good point about the average readers. I have re read the first 3 books probably 5 times and the last two twice and I would still not have caught everything that I have since I started reading these forums. There is just so much foreshadowing and hints buried everywhere, it is a work of genius. But no way will the average reader see everything the first time through.

Plus we also have to remember that we are all reading a work in progress. An art piece that takes years to create, so we all have time to dig and analyze between installments. Once it is a completed work and new readers read it all at one time, I am sure they will be surprised by events, scared for characters, and have their minds blown in the later books as well as the earlier ones. They will then reread it and say wow, Martin hinted that that would happen. Wow, I did not pay attention to the prophecies at all. etc and etc.

I think Martin is right to write it for the completed work and not worry if some of his avid readers predict the end because they have read the book multiple times and then spent years on the internet dissecting his every word with other readers. It is amazing that he created a work of art that allows us to do that.

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Hows he going to meet Dany or Moqorro in Bravos

You don't provide a quote, but I'll assume you are discussing Massey. He was instructed not to come back without the sellswords Stannis needs. I doubt he will find them in Bravos, so he will need to go elsewhere. I expect he will also hear a lot about dragons and will know that, if they exist, they are the best weapon to bring back (along with Dany, of course), if that is at all possible. In any case, I expect him to turn south in his search. Meeting Dany or Moqorro is a strong possibility, IMO...or not. GRRM is not all that predictable.

I'll add my vote on the issue of prophesy that has come up lately. I like it a lot. It adds another dimension to the story. i also very much like stories where past knowledge is dredged up again by referring to old and forgotten books (or meeting people like the CotF who have knowledge forgotten by most of the main characters).. I hope Sam gets into that research in a big way.

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I'm betting more on a Massey-Arya connection than a Massey-Daenerys one.

Yes. After all, the Faceless Men are for hire, even if expensive. Whatever Massey may hear about the dragons, as long as they are with Daenerys they are not for hire.

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@iamthedave

I agree with most of your points, but it's like someone has already said (I don't remember if on this thread or somewhere else): we only know Jon is not dead, nothing will happen to Daenerys for a while and Cersei is safe as long as neither Jaime nor Tyrion are around because we're obsessive fans. The casual reader probably felt all the impact of Jon's death, probably thought Cersei could die at the hands of the Faith, and are most likely anxious about what will happen to Daenerys considering the cliffhanger we got. And most readers are casual, these lovely on-line discussions shouldn't take that off our minds. And who knows? Since prophecies are always backfiring, maybe Daenerys will die before getting to westeros, maybe Cersei's valonqar is someone else's brother, etc...

It's sort of a pet peeve of mine. I'm a writer myself (insofar as I have written things, not insofar as having published books that have made much cash) and I think part of being a writer is that you encounter things that you just don't like. Prophecy's become one of my 'thing's. I sometimes think I should probably be writing sci-fi instead of fantasy since prophecy seems so invested into the genre, but I hope I can make a compelling story without them.

But I'm also an analytical reader - in part because I'm also a writer so whenever I read I'm picking things apart in my head to figure out how they work - so I don't come at anything from an average perspective anymore. I'm not sure if that's sad or not.

In no way am I suggesting to tell Martin what he's doing wrong. I just don't like everything he's done and feel the Prophesizing/visioning has become intrusive and annoying. I literally can't read the Bran chapters with Jojen Reed and his bloody green dreams. I genuinely feel that some of Martin's worst writing is found in those sorts of chapters, and I think his absolute best is when things are at their 'real'ist.

I guess the advantage of having such huge, sprawling stories is that the books have enough room in them for stuff that will please everybody, and even if there are elements you (or in this case I) hate they can't truly poison the apples.

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Getting back to Theon, I want to repeat something about Theon I just wrote on another thread. I think Stannis will use one of the crows he has to send a message to Ramsay saying he has been massively defeated, triggering the Ramsay letter to Jon. When he finds out his chosen Stark heir has been fatally or near fatally stabbed, he'll be royally pissed off (pun intended!) and goaded by Theon's sister, will drag Theon off to the weirwood for execution.

He will then be told by the tree (what else could do so?) that Bran and Rickon are alive and that Theon is not to be killed, because Theon has more to do. I take that point of view because it doesn't seem to me that Theon's story is done yet - his survival so far seems a pretty clear indicator of that. Theon may well end up dead meat, but not just yet. Bran, of course, is speaking through the tree.

George will throw a curve ball at this point and some surprise will happen, I feel it in my bones!

I confess I want Theon to live, to go home as an example of how terribly wrong things can go in times of war. Bittersweet - his suffering has no effect on anything.

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Though I love the Roose and Ramsay characters

What? Why? :shocked:

at any rate, I sincerely am hoping that Stannis obliterates these sickos, they had it coming for them for a while now. I think at this point Stannis needs to fight extremely rough, and win some of these battles to restore some sense of order because all this stuff with the bad guys winning is getting to me. :bang:

Also, this chapter ends strongly implying that Theon will ultimately die (**crossing fingers!**)

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