Did Quentyn Succeed? [Spoilers]

[Fearsome Fred]

Fearsome Fred,

Uh. No. He was born and raised in Dorne.

His birthplace is unclear, until and unless someone provides a quote. His mother lives in Norvos, and for all I know, may have been living there at the time of his birth. In any event, I hardly see that Missandei would be surprised and shocked if Quentyn were to start speaking Vayrian in the dialect of one of the northern free cities.

Noble women don't personally take care of their children 24/7, no matter how attached they might be. What a strange notion.

Fearsome Fred never said "Noble women personally take care of their children 24/7." What a dishonest accusation.

There's no evidence he even speaks the Norvoshi dialect.

[shrug] There is no evidence he cannot either. If he were to speak his mother's tongue, would Missandei have cause to be surprised? Would she shout "IMPOSTER" and run screaming to Barristan?

You can speculate that this is so, but if you use this to rule ouf the possibilities I am suggesting, you are attempting to draw certain premises from speculative conclusions.

Your argument depends upon THREE premises:

1. Tatters would never speak Westerosi while in pain, even if addressed in Westerosi.

2. Quentyn would never speak a Valyrian dialect while in pain.

3. Missandei knnows Quentyn would never speak Valyrian while in pain.

If any of those are wrong, your argument fails. And you cannot prove any of them. You are not proving my theory wrong, only speculating that it might be wrong. Which I readily concede. My theory might be wrong.

Each of the Free Cities has its own dialect, as Tyrion notes -- "nine dialects" on their way to becoming their own language -- so his knowledge of Volantene says nothing of his knowledge of Norvoshi.

It is unclear he knows Volantene directly at all. He may know it indirectly via his knowledge of related dialects such as Old High Valyrian and (perhaps) Norvosi.

[The GRRumbler]

This is just absurd, your make a speculation, someone comes here, tells you there's no evidence in the books that might lead to your conclusion and you just answer "there's no evidence against it ether", thinking like that you can theorize about anything, but what's the point of discussing? You seem to clutch to anythng thats unclear in the books to base your theory on, when making a teory should be based on the existence of evidences, or at least clues in favor of such theory, not in the absence of evidence or clue against it.

[Fearsome Fred]

I believe it means you have a longer upper body than usual, so that when you and other people are sitting a horse you seem taller than they do when otherwise you would seem shorter or the same height.

Interestingly, this is true of Quentyn. He has short legs. This is presumably to blame for most of his own shortness: He describes himself as being shorter than Pretty Meris, who is just under 6 feet, but the context of the comment implies he is taller than women of more normal height.

But still, I don't think the expression "tall in the saddle" means that.

An old man he was, past sixty, yet he still sat straight and tall in the high saddle ..."

This seems to confirm it is a reference to his posture. Also, the phrase "high saddle" is curious.

[Fearsome Fred]

Doran II wrote:

This is just absurd, your make a speculation, someone comes here, tells you there's no evidence in the books that might lead to your conclusion and you just answer "there's no evidence against it ether", thinking like that you can theorize about anything, but what's the point of discussing?

Mistates the discussion. Ran was not telling me I had no evidence. He was presenting an argument AGAINST my theory, which he claimed DISPROVED it. I am allowed to respond to the argument, and show that it does not achieve what Ran claims.

making a teory should be based on the existence of evidences, or at least clues in favor of such theory

Are you saying I have presented no points in favor of my theory?

[Nukelavee]

No, you haven't - because you discard actual facts in favour of half-baked supposition.

Grats on an 8 page troll, tho. Well played.

[iamthedave]

Are you saying I have presented no points in favor of my theory?

None that are substantive, no.

I wouldn't say this is an 8 page troll, but after 8 pages you've yet to come up with a single concrete piece of evidence in support of your theory. That's usually a fair sign that the theory doesn't hold water.

And the alternative perspective - that we see Quent get a face full of dragonfire - holds water quite comfortably given that... well... we see Quentyn take a face full of dragonfire. Through his eyes, no less.

[Ashen Shugar]

The way I see it, GRRM established that he is not afraid to kill off main characters from the very first book. This is part of what makes his books different and attractive(for the first two books everytie I thought I could see where he was going and who the star of the show was gonna be, he went and killed them. :D) and I'm sure he knows it.

Now he is in the home stretch but still wants to have that element of "no one is safe" but he is running out of potential big players to kill, so he sets up Quentyn to be someone that readers will put there hopes on but then goes nowhere. Another potential major player who we thought was going somewhere but didn't. Of course a lot of people have already figured this out ad Q-dawgs death didn't have such a big impact because of this, if this had happened in the first 2 or 3 books I think his death would of had a lot more impact on readers.

I believe Victarion is another such character.

[Nukelavee]

Hunh. Good point, Ashen. Even if that was quentyn's only reason for being written, it makes those chapters sit a bit easier.

[LittleAndLess]

sorry....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The way I see it, GRRM established that he is not afraid to kill off main characters from the very first book. This is part of what makes his books different and attractive(for the first two books everytie I thought I could see where he was going and who the star of the show was gonna be, he went and killed them. :D) and I'm sure he knows it.

Now he is in the home stretch but still wants to have that element of "no one is safe" but he is running out of potential big players to kill, so he sets up Quentyn to be someone that readers will put there hopes on but then goes nowhere. Another potential major player who we thought was going somewhere but didn't. Of course a lot of people have already figured this out ad Q-dawgs death didn't have such a big impact because of this, if this had happened in the first 2 or 3 books I think his death would of had a lot more impact on readers.

I believe Victarion is another such character.

I don't think he killed off Quentyn just for the sake of killing someone off. Like I said earlier, the point was more than likely to set up a conflict, or at least a breakdown of trust and/or alliance, between Dany and the Dornish. Quentyn's death had a purpose, we just haven't seen it yet because there are still, you know, at least two more books to go, and not everything that happens in these books has a payoff in that same book.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

The way I see it, GRRM established that he is not afraid to kill off main characters from the very first book. This is part of what makes his books different and attractive(for the first two books everytie I thought I could see where he was going and who the star of the show was gonna be, he went and killed them. :D) and I'm sure he knows it.

Now he is in the home stretch but still wants to have that element of "no one is safe" but he is running out of potential big players to kill, so he sets up Quentyn to be someone that readers will put there hopes on but then goes nowhere. Another potential major player who we thought was going somewhere but didn't. Of course a lot of people have already figured this out ad Q-dawgs death didn't have such a big impact because of this, if this had happened in the first 2 or 3 books I think his death would of had a lot more impact on readers.

I believe Victarion is another such character.

His death DID have a purpose. It brought about the most self-indulgent, ridiculous, butt-hurt thread of the year.

[Fearsome Fred]

Ashen Shugar wrote:

Now he is in the home stretch but still wants to have that element of "no one is safe" but he is running out of potential big players to kill, so he sets up Quentyn to be someone that readers will put there hopes on but then goes nowhere.

Several problems with this

(1) He is NOT in the home stretch. Dany has not even reached Westeros yet; and this was an event he had planned to occur at not-too-far past the halfway point.

(2) He is NOT running out of major characters to kill. He has far too many of them, and is running out of time in which to kill them.

(3) If his goal was to convince you that no-one was safe, by killing Quentyn, he has failed miserably. You, for instance, have concluded that his reason for killing Quentyn was that all the major characters are safe.

(4) If he wants to convince us that major characters are unsafe, he would be better off maneuvering them into mortal danger, than wasting time on building up a minor character to get killed.

Of course a lot of people have already figured this out ad Q-dawgs death didn't have such a big impact because of this [...]

Now you seem to be arguing against your own points. This time, I agree. Q's death did not have that effect, and I think it unlikely that GRRM expected otherwise.

[iamthedave]

(4) If he wants to convince us that major characters are unsafe, he would be better off maneuvering them into mortal danger, than wasting time on building up a minor character to get killed.

Theon: Captured by Stannis, who will likely execute him

Asha: Similar scenario, more likely to survive

Jon: Possibly dead though none of us believe it

Dany: Well she has Drogon so she'll be fine

Barristan et al: Engaging in a suicide charge hoping the element of surprise and Yunkish incompetence will win the day

Tyrion: About to be involved in aforementioned suicide charge after his planned betrayal

Bran, Hodor, Jojen and Meera: Jojen may be dead already, situation is pretty grim for everyone not Bran given they're in the middle of nowhere surrounded by wights.

Jaime: In a position so bad that several posters consider his survival impossible.

Davos: About to go to the isle of Skagos, sunny home of such activities as cannibalism.

I'm wondering, how much 'manoeuvring into mortal danger' does Martin have to do in order for it to count in your book?

[Fearsome Fred]

iamthedave wrote:

I'm wondering, how much 'manoeuvring into mortal danger' does Martin have to do in order for it to count in your book?

Why is iamthedave pretending that Fearsome Fred has taken the position that aDwD contains no maneuvering of main characters into mortal danger? Fearsome Fred neither said, nor implied, anything of the sort.

Edit: spelling

[Fearsome Fred]

None that are substantive, no.

I wouldn't say this is an 8 page troll, but after 8 pages you've yet to come up with a single concrete piece of evidence in support of your theory.

I do not have a smoking gun, and never claimed to have one.

The 8 pages of this thread do not consist of me attempting to find a smoking gun and failing.

The 8 pages of this thread largely consist of my opponents trying to find a smoking gun that disproves my theory and establishes beyond a doubt that Quentyn is dead. And failing.

[Nukelavee]

Dude, the part where he realizes he just ate a face full of dragonfire, followed by the deathscene, seems to prove he's dead.

[Ran]

How about we agree to let people stick to their illusions and avoid insults?

This thread, in any case, is done. Once a theory swings on "Well, you can't disprove it beyond a shadow of a doubt," it's just an exercise in going in circles.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Dude, the part where he realizes he just ate a face full of dragonfire, followed by the deathscene, seems to prove he's dead.

Don't use logic. He speaks in the 3rd person. Logic will not work.