Saddest moment in the books.

[Raksha the Demon]

It's a pet name for the misbegotten fools who think Sandor Clegane and Sansa Stark are destined to be lovers.

They might be or might not, but the belief that Sandor and Sansa are destined to be lovers would not make me (or anyone) either misbegotten or a fool.

[1234567]

What a depressing series, is there a happiest moment thread? Or is it non-existant because THERE ARE NONE? :(

Very very few, and you just know that they will be part of something horrible and tragic later on......yes Tommen and your kittens, your time maybe drawing to an end. :(

[Woman of War]

*Huge chage in lifestyle makes it particulary sad. Grin :D . So in general kids who are born in the gutter and die abused in the gutter have it better than highborn kids. Oh how lucky those little weasels are.

I do not want to start Sansa bashing here but let's get things into proportion:

The incredibly horrifying event in her life was to be forced to see her father executed, btw this happened to her sister too. The saddest and truly desperate moment in her life, the ultimate desaster for a child to see a parent die that way.

Compared to that all abuse experiences, even the beating by the guards, the knife at her throat ( she got away with luck), the unwanted marriage (lucky again), the manipulative abduction by LF and the murder attempt by her aunt are ugly but.........

Compare it to Pia, the prostitute at Harrenhall, another character who started out as beautiful girl: raped many, many times, teeth knocked out, scarred, health lost.......

Sansa still has her health, her beauty, there are people who do her laundry, cook her food and light her fire.

By now she has lost her status as daughter of a great lord and is totally dependant of a sinister guy who intends to use her for his own purposes, seduce her, rape her or marry her off.

Does she have to work for her living like 99% of Westerosi population? Should I pity her for going down from lady to bastard? Oh, those poor village prostitutes can hardly go down any further, they are rock bottom already. Who as a reader would not prefer to identify with the damsel in distress and her plot armor instead of realizing what is done to women in general in that world!

Sorry but there are Idontknowhowmany female characters I pity more than her, to begin with Myrcella and certainly not to end with any peasant girl out there freezing and starving.

"snowcastle" was a wonderfully poetic and melancholic description, like many Sansa chapters very well written but Sansa herself does not touch my heart, I cannot weep for her like I can for the nameless or for characters like Catelyn or Jeyne Poole.

[solarbear]

Ned was perhaps the most developed and admirable character. His death was the only thing that I found sad.

[weirwood woman]

I bawled my eyes out when Lady was killed...first on the tv show and again in the book even though I knew that bit was coming.

The red wedding and the hopeless situation that put Arya in...so close

And Theon as Reek. Conflicting emotions - bad boy, poor boy,

Jon being forced to kill Quorhin.

So many moments that all these posts are reminding me of. But Lady was the saddest for me. After that I had to harden up a bit!

[FanTasy]

Yeah, I'm never getting over how Tyrion is seen as having been nice to Sansa. Just because he wasn't a monster like Joffrey it doesn't mean he wasn't a participant in her abuse - passively in the time before he actually bothered to stop Joffrey, but actively when he chose to marry her to get Winterfell and wanted to have sex with his child bride on the wedding night because she's pretty.

I'm far from idolizing Tyrion, in the contrary.

But to be fair here, Tyrion was not the one who sought this marriage.

The actual text in the books, if read with some objectivity towards each character concerned, seems to me clear: Tywinrion protested but his father insisted. What could Tyrion, who likes living, have done?

I found the scene of their wedding night hard to read.

I find one should judge characters by their actions, and certainly by their actions when tempted to act otherwise.

Tyrion chose to not proceed with having sex with Sansa, although he was sexually attracted to her.

For the latter I think it is very difficult to blame him. What matters here is that he didn't act, fully knowing what might be the repercussions, that he would be mocked.

This doesn't mean that I have no empathy with the horrific situation Sansa was in and how frightened she must have felt.

But there were two characters in this scene and I personally like to see both sides here - and judge what happened by the outcome.

ETA And I realise my reply is off topic, it belongs in another thread. Sorry!

This scene was a sad moment for me to read, not the saddest. Because this scene, how horrible and sad the situation was, had not the sad outcome it easily could have had.

[Theon Godjoy]

When Sansa builds the snow lookalike of Winterfell.

[Evamitchelle]

I'm far from idolizing Tyrion, in the contrary.

But to be fair here, Tyrion was not the one who sought this marriage.

The actual text in the books, if read with some objectivity towards each character concerned, seems to me clear: Tywin protested but his father insisted. What could Tyrion, who likes living, have done?

Saying that Tyrion would have risked his life by refusing to marry her is completely untrue. His father did not have to insist at all in fact, as he started talking to Kevan about marrying Sansa to Lancel instead not 5 minutes after Tyrion made his hesitation known. "If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins" and "If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife." How is Tyrion in any way forced to agree to the marriage here ? Jaime was put in a similar situation when Tywin told him to marry Margaery Tyrell, and he refused it pretty easily. Tyrion agreed to the marriage despite his previous hesitation (her being too young and a hostage) because he liked the prospect of being Lord Protector of Winterfell, not because his dad threatened to kill him if he didn't.

[FanTasy]

Saying that Tyrion would have risked his life by refusing to marry her is completely untrue. His father did not have to insist at all in fact, as he started talking to Kevan about marrying Sansa to Lancel instead not 5 minutes after Tyrion made his hesitation known. "If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins" and "If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife." How is Tyrion in any way forced to agree to the marriage here ? Jaime was put in a similar situation when Tywin told him to marry Margaery Tyrell, and he refused it pretty easily. Tyrion agreed to the marriage despite his previous hesitation (her being too young and a hostage) because he liked the prospect of being Lord Protector of Winterfell, not because his dad threatened to kill him if he didn't.

Okay, we are entering the realm of interpretation here, not text-based.

You're right in that Tywin probably would not have Tyrion killed on the spot.

Happily interpretating a character now, I think it is possible that Tyrion may have thought that if he married Sansa she would be better off with him and that as her husband he would be in a position to protect her from Joffrey. Remember Joff said that he would take Sansa as a bedwarmer? Would Lancel or any other Lannister cousin be stupid enough to oppose this?

Regarding the belief that Tyrion desperately wanted Winterfell: in my interpretation of his character this does not fit.

Tyrion has always wanted the Rock, being Tywins male heir after Jaime took his vows as a Kingsguard.

But these are my interpretations, don't want to claim truth here.

[1234567]

It says in the text that he wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. It says nothing about wanting to protect Sansa, and if that he been the case he would not have got to the point of her stripping and then mildly sexually assaulting her before deciding not to go through with the rape.

[The Sleeper]

It's not that I don't empathize with Sansa nut let's face its there are tons of people who've had it a lot worse. Off the top of my head, the girl who was raped ny Rorge at Saltpans (Martin can sure write some fucked up shit), actually pretty much everyone at Saltpans, every child at orphan inn and let's not forget Lady Hornwood.

About sad moments I'd like to add Brienne stepping up to face Rorge and Biter thinking "no chance and no choice". And to top that she gets the noose for her troubles in her next chapter.

[1234567]

Poor Brienne. I don't think the Winds of Winter is going to be a cheery book for her. :(

Also poor Pod. :(

[Evamitchelle]

Okay, we are entering the realm of interpretation here, not text-based.

You're right in that Tywin probably would not have Tyrion killed on the spot.

Happily interpretating a character now, I think it is possible that Tyrion may have thought that if he married Sansa she would be better off with him and that as her husband he would be in a position to protect her from Joffrey. Remember Joff said that he would take Sansa as a bedwarmer? Would Lancel or any other Lannister cousin be stupid enough to oppose this?

Regarding the belief that Tyrion desperately wanted Winterfell: in my interpretation of his character this does not fit.

Tyrion has always wanted the Rock, being Tywins male heir after Jaime took his vows as a Kingsguard.

But these are my interpretations, don't want to claim truth here.

I agree with Rapsie here, it says it right there in the text that he agrees to the marriage because of Winterfell : "Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill." And then a bit later "And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing" which makes it clear that he's very interested in having his possible heirs inheriting. Add to that the previous comment that "A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey's court... and away from Cersei and their father" and it's pretty clear that the prospect of Winterfell was enough in itself to change his mind without Tywin having to threaten him in any way (and Tywin's reaction shows clearly that he wouldn't have taken it badly if Tyrion had refused in the end). There is no indication that he married Sansa to "protect" her as he initially thought to go through with the bedding anyway and only changed his mind at the (very) last minute.

[1234567]

Another sad moment: Thoros of Myr realizing how far the BWB has fallen.

[corbon]

I agree with Rapsie here, it says it right there in the text that he agrees to the marriage because of Winterfell :

Well, hello!?!

Being a lord in your own right is a good thing. Quite a lot better than the kick in the pans which is all he's got so far.

What sort of ridiculous standards are we holding people to here?

Basically its like being offered a billionaire bride in a society where marriages are arranged anyway. Why wouldn't you accept?

Add to that the previous comment that "A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey's court... and away from Cersei and their father"

No kidding. Not only is it a dream arranged marriage to beautiful heiress, where he didn't expect to ever get one at all, but it gets him away from his dangerous family who treat him like shit.

Sansa, by the way, is a woman flowered, not a girl. At least in their society. And was always going to get an arranged marriage, not someone she chose.

[Evamitchelle]

Well, hello!?!

Being a lord in your own right is a good thing. Quite a lot better than the kick in the pans which is all he's got so far.

What sort of ridiculous standards are we holding people to here?

Basically its like being offered a billionaire bride in a society where marriages are arranged anyway. Why wouldn't you accept?

No kidding. Not only is it a dream arranged marriage to beautiful heiress, where he didn't expect to ever get one at all, but it gets him away from his dangerous family who treat him like shit.

Sansa, by the way, is a woman flowered, not a girl. At least in their society. And was always going to get an arranged marriage, not someone she chose.

Well, I was under the impression that forcing marriage on a frightened, abused, captive 12-year-old in exchange for material wealth without even telling her before the day of the wedding itself wasn't a good thing. Apparently you disagree. :stillsick:

[SelaBela]

I'm far from idolizing Tyrion, in the contrary.

But to be fair here, Tyrion was not the one who sought this marriage.

The actual text in the books, if read with some objectivity towards each character concerned, seems to me clear: Tywinrion protested but his father insisted. What could Tyrion, who likes living, have done?

I found the scene of their wedding night hard to read.

I find one should judge characters by their actions, and certainly by their actions when tempted to act otherwise.

Tyrion chose to not proceed with having sex with Sansa, although he was sexually attracted to her.

For the latter I think it is very difficult to blame him. What matters here is that he didn't act, fully knowing what might be the repercussions, that he would be mocked.

This doesn't mean that I have no empathy with the horrific situation Sansa was in and how frightened she must have felt.

But there were two characters in this scene and I personally like to see both sides here - and judge what happened by the outcome.

ETA And I realise my reply is off topic, it belongs in another thread. Sorry!

This scene was a sad moment for me to read, not the saddest. Because this scene, how horrible and sad the situation was, had not the sad outcome it easily could have had.

True, he did not originate the idea. However, he was presented with a choice from his father, who told him it was no problem marrying her off to a Lannister cousin instead. But Tyrion jumped on the offer so.. yeah. When did he protest? I don't have the books in front of me but the gist I got from his reaction was " oooo shiny castle :drool: ooo shiny wife :drool:!"

Anyway, back on topic. As an animal lover, I have to say Ladys death was very sad for me. When Arya had to throw rocks at Nymeria to get her to leave I was heartbroken.

One of the most depressing things (of the multitude in this series) is the story of how the Unsullied are trained. Murdering a puppy you raised for a year? :bawl:

ETA: Evamitchelle beat me to it.

[ghost the direwolf]

Red wedding

Arya wanting to go to the wall and ended in Bravoos

Unsullie making

Lady death

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

I have yet to see an argument that Sansa's story is The Saddest Story.

So far there is none and if there is none, this is probably not the thread to discuss "I like her very much" and "I like her very very much".

[FanTasy]

I'd be perfectly happy to continue the discussion of the sad moment of Sansa's wedding, but as said this is off topic.

So one last thing: Tyrion did try to give Sansa a way out of marrying him.

ASOS Sansa III:

Tyrion asks Joffrey to grant him a moment alone with Sansa.

Joff doesn't like it but Cersei makes him do it.

Tyrion: "My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret."

"You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did.

If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel.

Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age and fairer to look upon.

If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce."

Let me be perfectly clear: it was wrong, horribly wrong to force a young girl to marry for political reasons.