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The Roaring Bear

Theory on the Westerlings (Spoilers)

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So, there is so much emphasis on Tywin Lannister's wrath. How all of his bannerman are afraid of him due to how he has dealt with betrayal in the past. That being said he doesn't seem overly concerned about the Westerling alliance with the North. It almost seems as though he knows something no one else does.

My theory:

-Tywin had planned for Jeyne to seduce Robb, knowing his honor would force him to marry her (relying on his knowledge of how honorable Ned was).

-Jeyne says she drank a mixture each day to make her more fertile, I'm thinking this was actually like a morning afterpill type thing to keep her from conceiving.

-Tywin planned this to upset the Frey's in order to bring them to his side (the Frey's having always had close relations with the LAnnisters and being known for not being the most obedient of bannermen to the Tullys).

-Tywin also planned this in order to keep Robb from siring an heir (again keeping Jeyne infertile via whatever she was drinking) so that whenb he wed Tyrion to Sansa (notorious for his sex drive) it would give LAnnisters a claim over the North.

I think this idea is again reinforced with the pardon Tommen signs for the Westerlings, and the fact that Tywin did not seem to care that his bannermen had jumped ship, thoughts?

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Huh, that's a really good theory! And a very sneaky way for the Lannisters to own Winterfell.

I almost expected Joffrey to "accidentally" kill Margaery, then marry Jeyne. I'm glad he was the one who got it instead. Still, even though Tywin seemed very concerned and tried to help him, I honesty don't think he was that sorry to see him go.

I'm not sure he actually set up Robb meeting her, but I do think he had something to do with Robb's death and used Jeyne to his advantage. I don't think that old goat, the ancient walder frey, is bright enough to concieve a plan like that on his own.

As far as Tyrion and Sansa go, I think that was a plot long in the planning. He saw a way to get Winterfell through Sansa, then realized that other kingdom's had no heir either. So, let's shove the traitor's daughter on the Imp, since she's bitter, no fun for Joffrey and bad blood anyway, and gather more land! That way he has both High Garden and Winterfell. Remember, he also tried to marry Cersei off too... only that didn't go over so well. He was probably planning to kill both the girls once each had a son, but someone undid those plans before he could see them through. What better way for the Lannister's to own 2 more kingdoms!

With Tyrion and Sansa, I just have to laugh, because Tywin thinks he's so cunning, yet he way over-estimated Tyrion's morals. If he'd actually taken time to get to know his son, he probably could have known that despite Tyrion's whoring, he does still have the ability to love. In fact, his situation with Sansa is really Tywin's fault. If he'd been more of a loving father to him, Tyrion probably would have turned out more like Jaime and not thought twice and forcing Sansa ino bed. Since Tywin, and everyone really, has always shoved Tyrion and away, plus what they did to him with Tysha, you can see that underneath his hard, sarcastic exterior, Tyrion really just wants to loved and accepted. I think he can see himself in Sansa and therefore chose not to harm her. If Tywin hadn't pulled all that crap when Tyrion was younger, there probably would be an heir to Winterfell.

I agree, I'm curious as to why Tywin is so harsh. Obviously if you had twins who had sex with each and actually had children, and lost your wife for one twisted, ugly son that you'd never be able to get rid of, you'd probably grow a bit cold too. I think those are just fuel to the fire. Something must have happened before that to cause such rage. I peeked in the next book, and it seems to be mostly about the Lannister's, so maybe we'll find out then.

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Yes, I should also mention Jeyne continuously saying goodbye to Robb before he left, and getting him used to not having Grey Wind around got me rather suspicious as well.

Yes, I should also mention Jeyne continuously saying goodbye to Robb before he left, and getting him used to not having Grey Wind around got me rather suspicious as well.

Aye, I was about the bring this up! Could be guilt that made her say goodbye so many times. A very interesting theory, but what would you make of Jeyne's wanting to accompany Robb to the wedding? A cover, knowing he'd refuse?

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I absolutely believe that her wanting to accompany him to the wedding was a cover. Jeyne certainly knew (via pillowtalk and Robb wasnt the best at pretending like he was excited for it) that Robb didn't want to go to the wedding and was only doing it in order to fix his relationship with the much needed Freys. Knowing she was the cause for the split between the Starks and the Freys she knew that her being at the wedding would be taken as an insult and Robb would never risk it, show she had no cause to worry in regards to offer accompanying him.

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If you'll notice, at the point where Bolton is being made protector of the North and the Westerlings pardoned, a certain Spicer is raised to lord of Castemere. Jeyne, mother was a Spicer, and I wouldn't be surprised if this man was responsible for the Westerling side of the equation.

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I think you're right, except I'm in the camp that thinks that Jeyne had no idea about any of this: actually GOT preggers the first time her and Robb did the deed, then genuinely believed she was drinking a fetility potion, was switched with her sister, and has escaped with the Blackfish. Because I'm an optimist who wants a lil baby Robb junior. And Jeyne just didn't seem like a tricksy liar.

The Westerlings do seem to be false, but after the way that Jeyne's uncle Raynald died trying to free Grey Wind...I want to believe they're good, and Sybil is actually playing Tywin (by going along with the sister swap). Or, maybe Sybil was a bitch, but Jeyne escaped and her mother didn't want to tell the Lannisters that she'd lost Robb's wife.

Most of my theory relies heavily on the over-quoted "wide hips/narrow hips" fiasco.

Probably won't happen, GRRM is slowly grinding my optimism into dust...

All you realists may proceed to shoot holes in my bubble of hope now. :(

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I think you're right, except I'm in the camp that thinks that Jeyne had no idea about any of this: actually GOT preggers the first time her and Robb did the deed, then genuinely believed she was drinking a fetility potion, was switched with her sister, and has escaped with the Blackfish. Because I'm an optimist who wants a lil baby Robb junior. And Jeyne just didn't seem like a tricksy liar.

The Westerlings do seem to be false, but after the way that Jeyne's uncle Raynald died trying to free Grey Wind...I want to believe they're good, and Sybil is actually playing Tywin (by going along with the sister swap). Or, maybe Sybil was a bitch, but Jeyne escaped and her mother didn't want to tell the Lannisters that she'd lost Robb's wife.

Most of my theory relies heavily on the over-quoted "wide hips/narrow hips" fiasco.

Probably won't happen, GRRM is slowly grinding my optimism into dust...

All you realists may proceed to shoot holes in my bubble of hope now. :(

Wow. Imagine Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish, and she'll eventually ends up with Rob's baby. That would be awesome.

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Wow. Imagine Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish, and she'll eventually ends up with Rob's baby. That would be awesome.

Yeah, but it's too good to be true... :crying:

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Yeah, but it's too good to be true... :crying:

I guess. I wonder where the Blackfish went.

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I think Sybell was in league with Tywin but Jeyne was unknowing the whole time. She woudn't be the first the mother to use her child as her pawn in the game of thrones. Grey Wind's reaction to most of Jeyne's family was pretty telling and he was able to sense something off about them where Robb was not. Or maybe Robb could sense something but he was too busy thinking with his "little head" <_< , so he kind of brushed it off. I do believe that Jeyne loved Robb, though. When she came to Cat for advice on her son, it was sort of endearing to me. I seriously need to reread the series, but now my books are locked up in storage so I dont have immediate access to them. :crying:

As for her being pregnant, it is possible. Did we know where she got this fertility tea from or who told her about? Because if her mother truly was in league with Tywin the whole time, she may have been giving her moon tea the whole time and lying to Jeyne saying it was to help her get pregnant. That is just awful. Now I made myself angry!

I do like to think she ran off with the Blackfish as well.

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Huh, that's a really good theory! And a very sneaky way for the Lannisters to own Winterfell.

I almost expected Joffrey to "accidentally" kill Margaery, then marry Jeyne. I'm glad he was the one who got it instead. Still, even though Tywin seemed very concerned and tried to help him, I honesty don't think he was that sorry to see him go.

I'm not sure he actually set up Robb meeting her, but I do think he had something to do with Robb's death and used Jeyne to his advantage. I don't think that old goat, the ancient walder frey, is bright enough to concieve a plan like that on his own.

Sure Tywin had a lot to do with Robb's death! It's been a while since I read the third book, but didin't Tyrion find Tywin writing some letters, and Tywin said to Tyrion that some wars are won with sword and and some with paper and quill?So he was plotting the red wedding with Walder. But I don't think that Jeyne had anything to do with it, at least I don't want it to be true :) It would have been kind a hard for Tywin to predict what Robb would do when he meets her..

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I guess. I wonder where the Blackfish went.

So do I. At first I thought the Blackwoods,

but when they yielded...

I hope he's gone to Greywater Watch, a few of Robb's men made it there, and it's pretty safe. It's a reasonable distance although not safe, and not easy for a pregnant girl. Also, Howland Reed is there, and we have to hear about the TOJ from him eventually!

I think Sybell was in league with Tywin but Jeyne was unknowing the whole time. She woudn't be the first the mother to use her child as her pawn in the game of thrones. Grey Wind's reaction to most of Jeyne's family was pretty telling and he was able to sense something off about them where Robb was not. Or maybe Robb could sense something but he was too busy thinking with his "little head" <_< , so he kind of brushed it off. I do believe that Jeyne loved Robb, though. When she came to Cat for advice on her son, it was sort of endearing to me. I seriously need to reread the series, but now my books are locked up in storage so I dont have immediate access to them. :crying:

As for her being pregnant, it is possible. Did we know where she got this fertility tea from or who told her about? Because if her mother truly was in league with Tywin the whole time, she may have been giving her moon tea the whole time and lying to Jeyne saying it was to help her get pregnant. That is just awful. Now I made myself angry!

I do like to think she ran off with the Blackfish as well.

I agree with you 100%. I really, really don't think Jeyne is false! And if she is... :devil:

I think it's revealed later that

her mother gave her moon tea instead of a fertility potion. But, I don't know, I think Mama Westerling revealed that to Jaime, and it's a possibility that she's actually tricking the Lannisters and went along with the daughter switch, and really DID give Jeyne fertility potions, but told Tywin she was giving her moon tea. Make sense? This is me being hopeful...

Hope we haven't been to careless in a 'still reading' thread...

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I agree with you 100%. I really, really don't think Jeyne is false! And if she is... :devil:

I think it's revealed later that

her mother gave her moon tea instead of a fertility potion. But, I don't know, I think Mama Westerling revealed that to Jaime, and it's a possibility that she's actually tricking the Lannisters and went along with the daughter switch, and really DID give Jeyne fertility potions, but told Tywin she was giving her moon tea. Make sense? This is me being hopeful...

Hope we haven't been to careless in a 'still reading' thread...

Wow! I seriously need a reread. As soon as I get back my books back :read: .

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Yeah I don't think Jeyne was in on it. I think it was definitely her mother, we see in

Sybell's conversation with Jaime how greedy she is and how truly upset Jeyne was. It's said a few times that the Westerlings aren't a very powerful house so I could totally see

Sybell planning this to win favour with the Lannisters and boost her family's status.

This is the first I've heard of Jeyne escaping with the Blackfish but I hope it's true

:drunk:

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I think many here forget that there should be no spoilers past ASOS on this thread and talk about AFFC freely...

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Sorry :( I got carried away... there are so many other threads about Jeyne we could have spoken in, that aren't in the 'still reading' section...

Wow! I seriously need a reread. As soon as I get back my books back :read: .

Ah, you've lost your books? That's a shame. I really recommend the audiobooks until you find them again, they are great. I prefer reading to listening for the first time, but I spend a lot of time in the car so they're really convenient, and very well made.

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