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R+L=J v.19


Angalin

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The Producers of the HBO series have already guessed, and he was quite pleased, so notice the LACK of flashback shots such as the TOJ scenes, because on television it would be glaringly obvious rather than spread out between hundreds of pages and five books. ;)

Yep. I'm curious how they are going to solve this :frown5: It would be a bit weird if they are not giving things away before people who just watch the show are confronted with Jon's backstory in Season 7 or Season 8 ...

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Yes, very possible! But there'could be another reason why the three Kingsguard were there - if they were guarding Baby Aegon.

After ADWD this can't be excluded,

I have not found conclusive evidence in the text that Baby Jon was at the Tower of Joy. Ned could have picked him up somewhere else.

Lyanna and her room filled with roses and with a bed of blood probably was at the Tower of Joy, but I have found no conclusive evidence that the events of the fight with the Kingsguard were at the same time as when Ned found Lyanna.

It fits in the construct of R+L=J though, which I believe is true.

But there are other possibilities.

I would actually go as far as to say that the Kingsguard protecting Aegon at the tower of Joy is effectively impossible.

First, why would they smuggle Aegon across Dorne when the Targaryens still controlled Blackwater Bay? Once the sack of King's Landing started, it would of been a simple matter of getting him aboard one of the many ships that were likely fleeing the harbor at the time.

Second, if Aegon was indeed at the Tower of Joy, Ned and Howland Reed would of captured him. Maybe they wouldn't of known what to do with a seemingly random baby if they didn't recognize him, but they could of easily disrupted any plans to smuggle him across the Narrow Sea without even meaning to.

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Yep. I'm curious how they are going to solve this :frown5: It would be a bit weird if they are not giving things away before people who just watch the show are confronted with Jon's backstory in Season 7 or Season 8 ...

Yeah, if HBO does continue to carry the show to it's fruition, then A- it may give Martin an incentive to wrap it up faster, or B- HBO "adapts" bits and parts of it with Martins blessing, making it an HBO creation.

I've heard they are very apprehensive about the RW, and the impact it will have on the casual fan just tuning into it, because it's so bleak. I think even with that they have suggested "seeing how it goes" will depend if they continue.

I was a casual fan, then read the books, and became hooked.

(I'd never heard of Martin before this, and I've read a lot of Fantasy and SciFi, though not in the last ten years, or so as I got into other genres).

BUT, I am a history buff with a soft spot for Plantaganet History and politics and all things Medieval, so I can tolerate the "bleakness" of it, because I expect it, however, the casual fan who is not into that time period may be overwhelmed by the misery, lol.

Or, the casual fan who is not into Fantasy/Scifi, which as a genre, it does lend itself to be more "dark," may be turned off, then there go the ratings for the show.

I'd heard it almost didn't survive Ned killing "Lady."

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Don't you think that if Lyanna's bed was still bloody and she was still lying in it, that the baby would probably still be there? Seems to me that if they'd had time to remove the baby, (locate a wetnurse, etc....) they'd have had time to change the bed.

I always thought Lyanna killed herself, didn't want to marry her lovers killer, but who knows.

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First, why would they smuggle Aegon across Dorne when the Targaryens still controlled Blackwater Bay? Once the sack of King's Landing started, it would of been a simple matter of getting him aboard one of the many ships that were likely fleeing the harbor at the time.

Second, if Aegon was indeed at the Tower of Joy, Ned and Howland Reed would of captured him. Maybe they wouldn't of known what to do with a seemingly random baby if they didn't recognize him, but they could of easily disrupted any plans to smuggle him across the Narrow Sea without even meaning to.

Well, maybe Baby Aegon, if he was smuggled away when the enemy armies were marching towards Kings Landing, was brought by ship to the South. That's entirely possible.

I suspect they knew it was not a random baby ... and that Ashara Dayne was quite near, caring for Baby Aegon..

Is it possible - timeline wise - that Wylla was wet nurse for Baby Aegon as well as Baby Jon?

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I always thought Lyanna killed herself, didn't want to marry her lovers killer, but who knows.

Lyanna does not seem like the type of person to kill herself, to me anyway.(especially after Jon was born)

Also through out the books childbirth, is referred to as "the bloody bed", and things like that, and pain and blood always go hand and hand with childbirth in the books. So I think that when Ned thinks of Lyanna in her bed of blood, it is referring to the birth of Jon. Also I have a hard time believing Ned would just sit back and let Lyanna kill herself. And I don't think she stabbed herself before Ned got there or anything, because then in Lyanna's mind who would take care of Jon, because she wouldn't know that Ned would get there right after she stabbed herself. Lyanna also spoke to Ned and made Ned promise her something, before she died. I believe she was dying and held on long enough, until she new Jon would be safe and taken care of.

I really can't see Lyanna going through with everything that her and Rhaegar did, as far as them being together and them bringing Jon into the world, just to end up killing herself in the end?

And I agree she didn't want to be married to Robert, especially after he killed Rhaegar, but that does not mean killing herself is the only way to not marry Robert. Nobody could really force her to do it, if she didn't want to. It's not like Robert would kill her if she didn't marry him, that would cost him his friendship with Ned, and probably another War. I believe Robert loved Lyanna, and would never be able to kill her, even if she refused to marry him, but like I said there are other reasons why Robert would not kill Lyanna, besides the fact of him loving her.

But I personally believe, had Lyanna not died in childbirth, she would have married Robert, and pretended to love him. That way keeping him happy and oblivious to Jon's existence. And had she survived the birth of Jon, she would have still made Ned promise to take Jon, and raise him as his own son. All to keep Jon safe, regardless of her living or not, I believe she still would have made Ned promise her, what Ned ended up promising her before she actually died.

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I always thought Lyanna killed herself, didn't want to marry her lovers killer, but who knows.

I don't think Lyanna is the suicidal type.

I think she'd be more apt to kill someone else than herself, (think Arya- just a little less dysfunctional).

Also, given the strong wolf imagry, she is a Mother now and would be very protective of her "pup."

What would have been a sadder irony is if Rhaegar had lived, and come back to find her dead.

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My one problem with the whole ToJ/Kingsguard guarding the King theory is that if baby Jon was born after Rhaegars death, and we're pretty sure Rhaegar was expecting another daughter or at least had no idea the sex of the baby to be born, then he probably did not leave strict instructions for the guards to carry out regarding his heir.(especially since Aegon was still alive) So at some point these 3 remaining guards took it upon themselves to appoint this child king? And news of baby Aegons death reached the ToJ before Ned so they must have had some communication with Kings Landing as well.

ETA so all this would have to equal some sort of legitimazation of Jon or else the Kingsguard would surely move to protect Viserys who they would have known to be alive via contact with KL

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My one problem with the whole ToJ/Kingsguard guarding the King theory is that if baby Jon was born after Rhaegars death, and we're pretty sure Rhaegar was expecting another daughter or at least had no idea the sex of the baby to be born, then he probably did not leave strict instructions for the guards to carry out regarding his heir.(especially since Aegon was still alive) So at some point these 3 remaining guards took it upon themselves to appoint this child king? And news of baby Aegons death reached the ToJ before Ned so they must have had some communication with Kings Landing as well.

ETA so all this would have to equal some sort of legitimazation of Jon or else the Kingsguard would surely move to protect Viserys who they would have known to be alive via contact with KL

That is pretty much the main arguement for Jon being legitimate. The KG have an overriding vow and that is to guard the king. The KG didn't need to be ordered to guard him, they didn't need to decide to appoint him. Jon simply is the king, so they stayed.

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Here's a thought on Jon being able to become king without breaking his oath......

He is sworn to the Night's Watch until his death. At the end of DWD, Jon is "killed" by other NW members. He "dies" and comes back to life as AA/TPWWP (however this happens....he wargs into Ghost and Melissandre revives him, a prophecy is fulfilled, etc....not sure how it will happen, but I feel pretty strongly that it will). Technically, he has fulfilled his oath to the NW, as he is a different person now.

Just my opinion......

O.M.G. I forgot the Red Priests/priestesses could bring back the dead. Jon could end up like Beric. With like knife holes all in him. Cool. She could give him "the kiss of fire" or whatever Thoros called it.

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Also it could be possible that Rhaegar told the 3KG members about the Prophecy. So they could have stayed no matter what, believing Jon was the most important thing to keep safe. We know that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegars best friend, maybe Rhaegar told Arthur Dayne about the prophecy, and Arthur told Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent.

So that could also be why they stayed to protect Jon, on top of him being the rightful heir to The Iron Throne, and their rightful King.

For the record I do subscribe to the belief that Jon was born legitament, in wedlock, thus making him not a bastard after all.

But do we have any evidence of the 3KG members, knowing about Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar being dead??? Because Ned basically says as much to them when he gets to the ToJ, but did they know all this before Ned got there?

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O.M.G. I forgot the Red Priests/priestesses could bring back the dead. Jon could end up like Beric. With like knife holes all in him. Cool. She could give him "the kiss of fire" or whatever Thoros called it.

There are a few other ways Jon could live, but yes the "kiss of fire" is one of them. We also know the Red Priests can heal wounds, like with Morqurro and Victarion. Or Jon isn't dead, and he just survives his wounds (with or without magic). But there are many, many ways that Jon could be alive and kickin in the next book. I mean there are literally pages upon pages of theory's on how Jon will still be in the game, the kiss of fire, and what I listed, are just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to theorys on Jon and his stabbing, and how Jon will still be alive.

(please forgive me for not going into every detail of every theory that I know of, but there are lots of forums about this topic, and I am sure they explain the theory's better than I can)

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My one problem with the whole ToJ/Kingsguard guarding the King theory is that if baby Jon was born after Rhaegars death, and we're pretty sure Rhaegar was expecting another daughter or at least had no idea the sex of the baby to be born, then he probably did not leave strict instructions for the guards to carry out regarding his heir.(especially since Aegon was still alive) So at some point these 3 remaining guards took it upon themselves to appoint this child king? And news of baby Aegons death reached the ToJ before Ned so they must have had some communication with Kings Landing as well.

ETA so all this would have to equal some sort of legitimazation of Jon or else the Kingsguard would surely move to protect Viserys who they would have known to be alive via contact with KL

Yeah. Its not that they 'appoint' him King, (or have any power or right to do so), but that since they clearly didn't believe Viserys was the rightful King (because they were happy to leave him unprotected by a KG, their primary duty), they must believe someone higher in the succession is King instead (and is at ToJ).

Therefore (assuming it wasn't Aegon, which seems unlikely) Jon was legitimate and since no opportunity has happened for him to 'be legitimized' (anyone who could died before he was born) he must therefore have been born legitimate, which means a marriage betyween Rhaegar and Lyanna (which is easily achieved and has no real barrier given past Targaryen polygamy).

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But do we have any evidence of the 3KG members, knowing about Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar being dead??? Because Ned basically says as much to them when he gets to the ToJ, but did they know all this before Ned got there?

The way the conversation goes, I read that they absolutely did know that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, and they were still there. Note the complete lack of shock or surprise or desire to get a man to Viserys. They knew.

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Ned didn't want to kill Dayne and the others so he was trying to get them to leave gracefully by hinting that perhaps they should be off to Dragonstone to protect Viserys.

Also, one thing that I just thought of was perhaps Ned knew about Lyanna's pregnancy before he went to the Tower, especially if he was tipped off by Ashara Dayne. TOJ was being supplied by Starfall, so Ashara had to have known what was up.

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I never knew that the ToJ was added to the map for ADWD. I always thought its location was a mystery to us readers as well and was just going through that map while reading the mystery knight and noticed it in the Princes Pass. Was this something ever mentioned in the text?

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I never knew that the ToJ was added to the map for ADWD. I always thought its location was a mystery to us readers as well and was just going through that map while reading the mystery knight and noticed it in the Princes Pass. Was this something ever mentioned in the text?

I think it's mentioned in at least one book (Ned's flashback in Game of Thrones?) that it's in Dorne. "The knights stood with the mountains of Dorne at their backs" or something to that effect. The only thing that was a mystery was its exact location.

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I think it's mentioned in at least one book (Ned's flashback in Game of Thrones?) that it's in Dorne. "The knights stood with the mountains of Dorne at their backs" or something to that effect. The only thing that was a mystery was its exact location.

Yeah I knew it was in Dorne somewhere but was suprised to see it located on the map. Eddard took stones from the building to build tombs but did he leave the tower intact? I thought I remember hearing that it was torn down.

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Yeah I knew it was in Dorne somewhere but was suprised to see it located on the map. Eddard took stones from the building to build tombs but did he leave the tower intact? I thought I remember hearing that it was torn down.

Isn't it marked as a ruin? My version of ADWD doesn't have it on the map so I'm kind of flying blind here. It's possible that Ned tore the tower itself down but had to leave the foundation. In which, it would still qualify as a ruin.

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The way the conversation goes, I read that they absolutely did know that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, and they were still there. Note the complete lack of shock or surprise or desire to get a man to Viserys. They knew.

I also got the impression, that the KG were not shocked by what Ned was saying (suggesting they already had heard what Ned was saying), especially when Ned makes the comment about Jaimie killing Aerys, and one of the KG members says something like, and had we been there our brother would be dead and Aerys would be alive.

When one of the KG members said that to Ned, about Jamie and Aerys, I believe that there was no doubt in his mind, that what Ned was saying was the truth (because the KG obviously already heard the information, from a credible source....not that Ned isn't credible, but he was on the opposite side, from the KG)

So basically because the 3 KG members don't challenge anything that Ned is saying, that is pretty much indicative of them already knowing the Information.

Thank you Apple Martini, for refreashing that fact back into my mind, in regards to the 3 KG lack of surprise (I haven't read GoT for awhile)

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