R+L=J v.19

[LongclawGirl]

I am rereading GoT right now, and that is from Ned's POV chapter......when he is recovering in bed after the fight with Jamie Lannister.

It doesn't really describe the building, only mentioning the mountains of Dorne and the conversation with the Kingsguard, and Lyanna yelling for Ned from an open window.

Ned and Howland Reed were the only survivors, although other men accompanied them there (including Jory's father).

[FanTasy]

I am rereading GoT right now, and that is from Ned's POV chapter

Yes thank you :cheers: . I ETA'd my post #60 with the relevant quote concerning the naming of the tower.

[LongclawGirl]

I have to say that after reading all these threads.....it has really made a difference in what I'm catching when I reread GoT. I don't know how anything but R+L=J could be true. Yes, I know some people argue that it would be predictable and now that they've figured it out, they will be disappointed if there's no bigger mystery. But my argument to that is: there are lots, and lots of readers who haven't figured it out. Many people will be plain shocked when they find out who Jon's parents are. Not everyone is as interested in these books as the people posting here.....there are thousands, and thousands of casual readers who aren't picking up on the details. GRRM writes for those people too.

[Ygrain]

Besides, even if our guess is correct, so what? We don't know how, and when, the secret will be revealed, and how the revelation will affect the story. There is still so much to look forward to - and I can barely wait to see how those various hints will finally be interconnected.

[LongclawGirl]

Yes, very possible! But there'could be another reason why the three Kingsguard were there - if they were guarding Baby Aegon.

After ADWD this can't be excluded,

I have not found conclusive evidence in the text that Baby Jon was at the Tower of Joy. Ned could have picked him up somewhere else.

Lyanna and her room filled with roses and with a bed of blood probably was at the Tower of Joy, but I have found no conclusive evidence that the events of the fight with the Kingsguard were at the same time as when Ned found Lyanna.

It fits in the construct of R+L=J though, which I believe is true.

But there are other possibilities.

My thought regarding who the KG was there to guard: It had to be Jon.

Why?

Well, Tywin believed he was killing Aegon when he sacked Kingslanding....which makes me think that EVERYONE else thought that was Aegon too. That happened before the ToJ incident. Varys & company (Griff, Illiyrio, etc) are the only people who knew that Aegon had actually been smuggled out of the city. The KG thought that Jon WAS the heir to the throne.....that's why they had stayed.

Edit: Also, reread the chapter in GoT where Ned is dreaming about the events (after the fight with Jamie). He specifically recalls Lyanna calling to him as the fight with the KG starts to happen.

[FanTasy]

Edit: Also, reread the chapter in GoT where Ned is dreaming about the events (after the fight with Jamie). He specifically recalls Lyanna calling to him as the fight with the KG starts to happen.

Possibly. I'd like to leave some room for other interpretation, though.

GRRM specifically said that fans tended to take this dream scene too literally.

It is a feverish dream.

If you read the scene you'll notice that Ned is woke up from this dream because his steward is calling his name. In his dream Ned connects Lyanna calling his name with the steward calling his name.

I've read posts on this forum of people being sure that Lyanna opens a window, watches the fight and then calls out.

In the text there is a suggestion that Lyanna was there when the fight happened, but there is no conclusive evidence for this based on the text.

Ned could have found her somewhere else.

I'm not saying as you describe the scene it isn't what happened. It could well be. :cool4:

^{edited for fuzzy English}

[LongclawGirl]

I didn't know that GRRM said that. Of course, now that I've read a few theories, I am looking for meaning/interpretation in everything! :idea: I just really want R+L=J to be true! Jon Snow is my favorite character and I'm a sucker for a doomed romance.....

But maybe I need to spend a little more time reading the threads about Aegon.

[Yeade]

Ah, the neverending thread continues! ^_^

I've been doing a bit of thinking lately on how R+L=J might play out in the broader contexts of the war for the dawn and game of thrones assuming the theory's true and Jon's legitimate as suggested by the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Setting aside questions of how R+L=J may be revealed--a matter of information from many disparate sources matching up in different ways to convince key individuals, I suspect, instead of any single or even several pieces of evidence so incontrovertible as to persuade everyone--I believe Jon himself will ultimately be the most resistant to accepting R+L=J as truth.

Jon doesn't have the slightest notion at this point that his parentage likely makes him heir to the Targaryen kings of old, not to mention the whole AAR/PTWP prophecy nonsense, and he has probably the best excuse imaginable to put off really dealing with whatever attempts are made by Howland Reed, Bran, Bloodraven, or whoever to enlighten him as to R+L=J in the ongoing fight against the Others. I figure Jon's de facto King in the North by the time the Wall's breached and, as he commands humanity's struggle to stave off the ice zombie apocalypse, could dismiss R+L=J for simply being of no practical use to him.

Of course, Dany then swoops in with her dragons. Regardless of whether Aegriff's the genuine article, a total fake, or a Blackfyre pretender, his narrative purpose is to 1) form southern alliances while Dany's still occupied in Essos that she co-opts from him upon fulfillment of the mummer's dragon vision from the House of the Undying and 2) expose Dany to the possibility of finding long lost nephews as well as her own desire for family before she meets Jon, IMO. What's more, as a surviving legitimate son of Rhaegar would precede her in the Targaryen succession, Dany has political in addition to personal motivations in winning Jon to her cause. Especially if he's ruling the North in all but name and backed by a cadre of skinchangers, the most powerful of whom is his greenseer younger brother/cousin, threatening to wrest control of Dany's dragons from her. Jon seems sharp enough to me to use R+L=J as leverage against his aunt. He agrees to, say, marry Dany and sit the Iron Throne in exchange for Dany committing her forces to the war against the Others and perhaps a royal decree granting northern independence.

So, Jon ends up King of Westeros thanks to R+L=J. Not, however, as a love match with Dany or by general acclamation for a hidden heir turned war hero but through negotiations between him and Dany that force on her the concession of recognizing the secession of half her father's realm. R+L=J and its political ramifications actually offer a plausible explanation, IMO, for elements like the Starks becoming once again Kings in the North separate from the Iron Throne coming to pass as many readers wish.

[Ghost714]

Ah, the neverending thread continues! ^_^

I've been doing a bit of thinking lately on how R+L=J might play out in the broader contexts of the war for the dawn and game of thrones assuming the theory's true and Jon's legitimate as suggested by the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Setting aside questions of how R+L=J may be revealed--a matter of information from many disparate sources matching up in different ways to convince key individuals, I suspect, instead of any single or even several pieces of evidence so incontrovertible as to persuade everyone--I believe Jon himself will ultimately be the most resistant to accepting R+L=J as truth.

Jon doesn't have the slightest notion at this point that his parentage likely makes him heir to the Targaryen kings of old, not to mention the whole AAR/PTWP prophecy nonsense, and he has probably the best excuse imaginable to put off really dealing with whatever attempts are made by Howland Reed, Bran, Bloodraven, or whoever to enlighten him as to R+L=J in the ongoing fight against the Others. I figure Jon's de facto King in the North by the time the Wall's breached and, as he commands humanity's struggle to stave off the ice zombie apocalypse, could dismiss R+L=J for simply being of no practical use to him.

Of course, Dany then swoops in with her dragons. Regardless of whether Aegriff's the genuine article, a total fake, or a Blackfyre pretender, his narrative purpose is to 1) form southern alliances while Dany's still occupied in Essos that she co-opts from him upon fulfillment of the mummer's dragon vision from the House of the Undying and 2) expose Dany to the possibility of finding long lost nephews as well as her own desire for family before she meets Jon, IMO. What's more, as a surviving legitimate son of Rhaegar would precede her in the Targaryen succession, Dany has political in addition to personal motivations in winning Jon to her cause. Especially if he's ruling the North in all but name and backed by a cadre of skinchangers, the most powerful of whom is his greenseer younger brother/cousin, threatening to wrest control of Dany's dragons from her. Jon seems sharp enough to me to use R+L=J as leverage against his aunt. He agrees to, say, marry Dany and sit the Iron Throne in exchange for Dany committing her forces to the war against the Others and perhaps a royal decree granting northern independence.

So, Jon ends up King of Westeros thanks to R+L=J. Not, however, as a love match with Dany or by general acclamation for a hidden heir turned war hero but through negotiations between him and Dany that force on her the concession of recognizing the secession of half her father's realm. R+L=J and its political ramifications actually offer a plausible explanation, IMO, for elements like the Starks becoming once again Kings in the North separate from the Iron Throne coming to pass as many readers wish.

I definitely believe this is a very likely to happen.

[LadyMary]

Apparently not all copies of ADWD had all of the maps. I know mine didn't have any maps of Westeros.

Here is a link to the map of southern Westeros: http://a1018.g.akama...s/the_south.jpg

As you can see the ToJ is situated in The Prince's Pass. It's close-ish to Starfall, but not super close.

OMG, thank you! That's very interesting, and much farther from Starfall than I assumed.

As for the question of when/whether Rhaegar had built or renamed an existing castle as the Tower of Joy, I assume that the tower was there and he repurposed it as a hiding place for himself and then used it as a love nest for himself and Lyanna.

It was certainly within his character to go on retreats and everyone knew where to look for him at Dragonstone and Summerhall. Even if it was possible to build a tower in the period of time between the tournament at Harrenhal and the abduction of Lyanna, I can't believe that even a crown Prince could undertake a building project of that size without someone getting word of it to Varys or Aerys. It would require a great deal of collusion to keep it a secret involving numerous Dornish forces, at least three of the Kingsguard and whoever kept account of Rhaegar's finances.

I think it's more likely that Rhaegar bought or borrowed the ToJ from a trusted friend, perhaps even Arthur Dayne.

[FanTasy]

As for the question of when/whether Rhaegar had built or renamed an existing castle as the Tower of Joy, I assume that the tower was there and he repurposed it as a hiding place for himself and then used it as a love nest for himself and Lyanna.

It was certainly within his character to go on retreats and everyone knew where to look for him at Dragonstone and Summerhall. Even if it was possible to build a tower in the period of time between the tournament at Harrenhal and the abduction of Lyanna, I can't believe that even a crown Prince could undertake a building project of that size without someone getting word of it to Varys or Aerys. It would require a great deal of collusion to keep it a secret involving numerous Dornish forces, at least three of the Kingsguard and whoever kept account of Rhaegar's finances.

I think it's more likely that Rhaegar bought or borrowed the ToJ from a trusted friend, perhaps even Arthur Dayne.

The notion of a love nest in Dorne has always struck me as odd. if you are wildly in love you want to be together as often as you can.

Wouldn't it raise questions if the crown prince took off regularly for a couple of weeks, followed by some Kingsguard?

There was no Dragon Air Helicopterservice who would take him from Kings Landing to Dorne in a couple of hours,

If your wife is Dornish it seems a bit risky if you hide your mistress in Dorne, in a tower in one of the two passes which everybody who wants to come to or leave Dorne by land must use.

If the tower of joy is located at a strategic location as one of the two gateways by land to a country, wouldn't there be a Dornish garrison?

[Ygrain]

Now that I think of it, would Dorne still need to guard its access routes when it's an integral part of the Seven kingdoms and there is no danger of attack from the north? Could it be that the Tower of Joy was actually a ruin of the former garrison, abandoned long ago? Rebuilding a tower at an already existing site would be much easier than building a new one on the green (water source, access route, building material, all in one place). Arthur Dayne would most probably know of its existence and tell Raeghar, and as I look at the map, Summerhall is not awfully far, either.

Dragon Air Helicopterservice! Really, why should Dany ever wish to sit on that ugly iron chair when she can utilize her dragons and make a fortune!

- Seriously, or as much as one can be about a fictive person: after Lyanna's "abduction", Raeghar disappeared for quite some time, so I suppose he meant to stay in his love nest until the situation calmed down.

[FanTasy]

Now that I think of it, would Dorne still need to guard its access routes when it's an integral part of the Seven kingdoms and there is no danger of attack from the north?

Well, they were not particular great friends with the good folks in the Reach. Dorne could not muster great hords like the Tyrells, so they were vulnerable. I suppose they would keep a keen eye at the two possibilities where attackers from the North could get into their country.

Wasn't Gerold Dayne responsible for one of the passes ... I seem to remember something like that ... have to re-read.

[Ygrain]

Well, they were not particular great friends with the good folks in the Reach. Dorne could not muster great hords like the Tyrells, so they were vulnerable.

However, the Tyrells would have to breach the King's Peace, which would be a capital offence. - But you're right, of course, mere caution would demand keeping an eye on the route.

[xylven]

Besides, even if our guess is correct, so what? We don't know how, and when, the secret will be revealed, and how the revelation will affect the story. There is still so much to look forward to - and I can barely wait to see how those various hints will finally be interconnected.

Agreed. At this point, to me as well, it can't be anything but R+L=J. What I want to know is how it will affect the story after it is revealed. Sure, it will explain a lot of history, but really, I don't think Jon is going to end up as King. Besides, considering Howland Reed is the only one who knows the truth (supposedly) that's still alive, who's going to take his word for it? Jon takes after the Stark looks very strongly, so there's no physical evidence that he has Targaryen blood as well. The only other way for someone to discover the truth is if they can manage to "see" the past, like Dany and Bran once did.

[FanTasy]

Agreed. At this point, to me as well, it can't be anything but R+L=J. What I want to know is how it will affect the story after it is revealed. Sure, it will explain a lot of history, but really, I don't think Jon is going to end up as King. Besides, considering Howland Reed is the only one who knows the truth (supposedly) that's still alive, who's going to take his word for it? Jon takes after the Stark looks very strongly, so there's no physical evidence that he has Targaryen blood as well. The only other way for someone to discover the truth is if they can manage to "see" the past, like Dany and Bran once did.

There are other possible witnesses than Reed. Wylla. Ashara Dayne. Servants, florists.

[LongclawGirl]

Ah, the neverending thread continues! ^_^

I've been doing a bit of thinking lately on how R+L=J might play out in the broader contexts of the war for the dawn and game of thrones assuming the theory's true and Jon's legitimate as suggested by the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Setting aside questions of how R+L=J may be revealed--a matter of information from many disparate sources matching up in different ways to convince key individuals, I suspect, instead of any single or even several pieces of evidence so incontrovertible as to persuade everyone--I believe Jon himself will ultimately be the most resistant to accepting R+L=J as truth.

Jon doesn't have the slightest notion at this point that his parentage likely makes him heir to the Targaryen kings of old, not to mention the whole AAR/PTWP prophecy nonsense, and he has probably the best excuse imaginable to put off really dealing with whatever attempts are made by Howland Reed, Bran, Bloodraven, or whoever to enlighten him as to R+L=J in the ongoing fight against the Others. I figure Jon's de facto King in the North by the time the Wall's breached and, as he commands humanity's struggle to stave off the ice zombie apocalypse, could dismiss R+L=J for simply being of no practical use to him.

Of course, Dany then swoops in with her dragons. Regardless of whether Aegriff's the genuine article, a total fake, or a Blackfyre pretender, his narrative purpose is to 1) form southern alliances while Dany's still occupied in Essos that she co-opts from him upon fulfillment of the mummer's dragon vision from the House of the Undying and 2) expose Dany to the possibility of finding long lost nephews as well as her own desire for family before she meets Jon, IMO. What's more, as a surviving legitimate son of Rhaegar would precede her in the Targaryen succession, Dany has political in addition to personal motivations in winning Jon to her cause. Especially if he's ruling the North in all but name and backed by a cadre of skinchangers, the most powerful of whom is his greenseer younger brother/cousin, threatening to wrest control of Dany's dragons from her. Jon seems sharp enough to me to use R+L=J as leverage against his aunt. He agrees to, say, marry Dany and sit the Iron Throne in exchange for Dany committing her forces to the war against the Others and perhaps a royal decree granting northern independence.

So, Jon ends up King of Westeros thanks to R+L=J. Not, however, as a love match with Dany or by general acclamation for a hidden heir turned war hero but through negotiations between him and Dany that force on her the concession of recognizing the secession of half her father's realm. R+L=J and its political ramifications actually offer a plausible explanation, IMO, for elements like the Starks becoming once again Kings in the North separate from the Iron Throne coming to pass as many readers wish.

Love this explanation!

[MiSSiSSiPPiDick]

I have to say that after reading all these threads.....it has really made a difference in what I'm catching when I reread GoT. I don't know how anything but R+L=J could be true. Yes, I know some people argue that it would be predictable and now that they've figured it out, they will be disappointed if there's no bigger mystery. But my argument to that is: there are lots, and lots of readers who haven't figured it out. Many people will be plain shocked when they find out who Jon's parents are. Not everyone is as interested in these books as the people posting here.....there are thousands, and thousands of casual readers who aren't picking up on the details. GRRM writes for those people too.

Im new here and as such R+L=J is absolutely new to me as well (what do you mean, 'those people' 8D)

I never liked the idea that Ned would beget a bastard but i never really thought about it much beyond "that's fishy".

Soooooo, in my ingnorance i will ask this: is it remolely possible that R=Robert? Did the Tower of Joy occor before or after Robert took the throne?

[LongclawGirl]

Im new here and as such R+L=J is absolutely new to me as well (what do you mean, 'those people' 8D)

I never liked the idea that Ned would beget a bastard but i never really thought about it much beyond "that's fishy".

Soooooo, in my ingnorance i will ask this: is it remolely possible that R=Robert? Did the Tower of Joy occor before or after Robert took the throne?

Haha - no disrespect meant to the casual readers! Just that GRRM doesn't only write for the crazy fans hell-bent on discussing every possible theory, plot twist, and character ad naseum! (i.e.: US! :laugh:)

R=Rheagar.....definitely. The ToJ occurred after Jamie slew Aerys and Robert took the throne (per Ned's conversation with the KG who were there....they reference different things that happened at the end of the war).

[Val the Wildling Princess]

R is Rhaegar :D and about the timeline I'm not sure, but I suposse when Ned went to the Tower of Joy Robert was fighting Rhaegar at the trident :dunno:

ETA. Ok, so Rhaegar was dead already. Then Ned went to the Tower of Joy after he made Jaime get out of the throne for Robert, right?