R+L=J v.19

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

Yes, Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, Aerys, and Aegon (supposedly) were all dead, leaving only Rhaella and baby Daenerys as the last Targs. Ned told this to the three KG. Unless R+L = of course

[The GreatRon]

WHy couldnt he just call it the Tower of Jon, comon now Rhaegar :cool4:

[Arya Targaryen]

Yes, Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, Aerys, and Aegon (supposedly) were all dead, leaving only Rhaella and baby Daenerys as the last Targs. Ned told this to the three KG. Unless R+L = of course

And Viserys, of course :cool4:

[WhiteWolf26]

R is Rhaegar :D and about the timeline I'm not sure, but I suposse when Ned went to the Tower of Joy Robert was fighting Rhaegar at the trident :dunno:

ETA. Ok, so Rhaegar was dead already. Then Ned went to the Tower of Joy after he made Jaime get out of the throne for Robert, right?

After Elia Martell and her childrens were presented to Robert by Tywin Lannister, Ned abruptly left Kings Landing and took his Northern forces south to lift the Tyrell siege on Storms End. Ten after that Ned took a group of his trusted bannerman South to search for Lyanna. I think...

[Val the Wildling Princess]

After Elia Martell and her childrens were presented to Robert by Tywin Lannister, Ned abruptly left Kings Landing and took his Northern forces south to lift the Tyrell siege on Storms End. Ten after that Ned took a group of his trusted bannerman South to search for Lyanna. I think...

Haha thank you, I always mess with the timeline of those events.

[Alia of the knife]

What I've heard, and then guessed:

- TOJ was a Keep, so a little more than a rickety, hastily constructed Tower, but a Castle?

- It was not on anyones radar. No one could find him.

- Rhaegar gave it it's name, (and I think thats known).

- Ned and Howland were able to take it down, useing the stones for cairns to the dead.

What the map looks like in my copy:

- Starfall is close, but not as close as suspected. It looks like High Hermatage is closer, but it doesn't rule out the Daynes helping Rhaegar and Lyanna as they still make the most sense.

Questions:

- How is it the Crown Prince could hide the way he did for a year from his people and family, especially if it is a Castle, the people and money it would take to run such an operation, (i.e., food, supplies, clothes, and a midwife).

- Where would Rhaegar get the finances as I assume his Father still calls those shots?

- Wouldn't his well-known friendship with the Daynes tip someone off to look in Dorne, specifically around their land?

The Martels were not happy with the way Elia was treated, wouldn't Doran, under the radar, mount his own investigation?

:dunce:

[LadyMary]

The notion of a love nest in Dorne has always struck me as odd. if you are wildly in love you want to be together as often as you can.

Wouldn't it raise questions if the crown prince took off regularly for a couple of weeks, followed by some Kingsguard?

There was no Dragon Air Helicopterservice who would take him from Kings Landing to Dorne in a couple of hours,

If your wife is Dornish it seems a bit risky if you hide your mistress in Dorne, in a tower in one of the two passes which everybody who wants to come to or leave Dorne by land must use.

If the tower of joy is located at a strategic location as one of the two gateways by land to a country, wouldn't there be a Dornish garrison?

All this is true and yet, that seems to be exactly what happened. Rhaegar disappeared and the court at Kings Landing didn't know where he was. He eventually returned from the South to go to war, but up to that point apparently he was in hiding. I suppose it's possible there was a Dornish garrison, but maybe that wasn't necessary because one of Rhaegar's closest friends was a member of the King's Guard - Arthur Dayne - was a Dornishman and knew his way around.

[MiSSiSSiPPiDick]

ok, so when the hell did Robert fall in love with Lyanna? While she was preggers?

[kg1982]

Let me take a shot at some of the questions

- How is it the Crown Prince could hide the way he did for a year from his people and family, especially if it is a Castle, the people and money it would take to run such an operation, (i.e., food, supplies, clothes, and a midwife).

Rhaegar was sort of flighty before the decision to run away with Lyanna... He was basically a one man emo band. I think that it was in AFFC that Master Aemon? describes him as walking around the ruins of Summerhall alone making up sad ballads rather than attending to matters of State as the Crown Prince with a mentally unbalanced father should. The Court might have thought nothing of it. (As a side note, this is why Rhaegar annoys me so much. Grow up already, seriously).

- Where would Rhaegar get the finances as I assume his Father still calls those shots?

I'm assuming that by the time of the Rebellion, Rhaegar was king in everything but name. Aerys was too paranoid about everything, so perhaps the Master of Coin deferred to Rhaegar on matters of finance. Tywin Lannister and Aerys were increasingly at odds, so perhaps Rhaegar was able to get things past Tywin by then. The only question is why Varys didn't know.

- Wouldn't his well-known friendship with the Daynes tip someone off to look in Dorne, specifically around their land?

It did seem that the King's Guard all knew where to find Rhaegar when he was needed to put down the Rebellion. I don't think that Rhaegar confided his exact plans to Lord Commander Hightower, but Hightower might have assumed that Rhaegar was hanging around the Daynes. I actually think that this suggests that perhaps certain of the Game players don't understand people as much as they think they do. Tywin was killed in the privy after pushing Tyrion over the edge, and I think that Varys will end up being undone by fakeAegon who is sort of an arrogant brat rather than the perfect future puppet Varys seems to think that he is. Perhaps Rhaegar and his plots slipped their minds.

The Martels were not happy with the way Elia was treated, wouldn't Doran, under the radar, mount his own investigation?

The Martells hate the Lannisters, the family that brutally murdered Elia and her children, and Robert Baratheon, the man who tacitly approved of it. There is nothing that suggests animosity to Ned Stark or to Rhaegar. (Why secretly ally with the Targs. if you hate their Crown Prince for humiliating Elia?) There's the whole idea of Chekov's gun when it comes to literature, so I'm think that the sexual liberation and gender equality associated with the Dorne in AFFC was mentioned for a reason. I think that the Martells were perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking a second wife to fulfill his prophecy as long as Elia was allowed sexual freedom as well. Perhaps there was someone that Elia was in love with as much as Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna. Siince Elia couldn't bear any more children, there was no way that a child from her affair could become part of the line of succession. Gosh, we're talking about the Prince of Dorne's brother having eight acknowledged bastards who play a significant role in Dorne's state affairs as well as the whole fact that Ellariia wasn't all concerned about her paramour setting her aside if he married Cersei in Storm of Swords. She was actually looking forward to threesomes.

[Alia of the knife]

Let me take a shot at some of the questions

Rhaegar was sort of flighty before the decision to run away with Lyanna... He was basically a one man emo band. I think that it was in AFFC that Master Aemon? describes him as walking around the ruins of Summerhall alone making up sad ballads rather than attending to matters of State as the Crown Prince with a mentally unbalanced father should. The Court might have thought nothing of it. (As a side note, this is why Rhaegar annoys me so much. Grow up already, seriously).

I'm assuming that by the time of the Rebellion, Rhaegar was king in everything but name. Aerys was too paranoid about everything, so perhaps the Master of Coin deferred to Rhaegar on matters of finance. Tywin Lannister and Aerys were increasingly at odds, so perhaps Rhaegar was able to get things past Tywin by then. The only question is why Varys didn't know.

It did seem that the King's Guard all knew where to find Rhaegar when he was needed to put down the Rebellion. I don't think that Rhaegar confided his exact plans to Lord Commander Hightower, but Hightower might have assumed that Rhaegar was hanging around the Daynes. I actually think that this suggests that perhaps certain of the Game players don't understand people as much as they think they do. Tywin was killed in the privy after pushing Tyrion over the edge, and I think that Varys will end up being undone by fakeAegon who is sort of an arrogant brat rather than the perfect future puppet Varys seems to think that he is. Perhaps Rhaegar and his plots slipped their minds.

The Martells hate the Lannisters, the family that brutally murdered Elia and her children, and Robert Baratheon, the man who tacitly approved of it. There is nothing that suggests animosity to Ned Stark or to Rhaegar. (Why secretly ally with the Targs. if you hate their Crown Prince for humiliating Elia?) There's the whole idea of Chekov's gun when it comes to literature, so I'm think that the sexual liberation and gender equality associated with the Dorne in AFFC was mentioned for a reason. I think that the Martells were perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking a second wife to fulfill his prophecy as long as Elia was allowed sexual freedom as well. Perhaps there was someone that Elia was in love with as much as Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna. Siince Elia couldn't bear any more children, there was no way that a child from her affair could become part of the line of succession. Gosh, we're talking about the Prince of Dorne's brother having eight acknowledged bastards who play a significant role in Dorne's state affairs as well as the whole fact that Ellariia wasn't all concerned about her paramour setting her aside if he married Cersei in Storm of Swords. She was actually looking forward to threesomes.

Thanks for answering those questions, and I go back and forth about Rhaegar.

I am not anti-Rhaegar, but I'm not a purist either.

I sometimes think that it just came down to him wanting Lyanna, and as Selmy says, "thousands died for it."

[sansabird]

“The Baratheon look was stamped on his face, in his jaw, his eyes, that black hair. Renly was too young to have fathered a boy of that age, Stannis too cold and proud in his honor. Gendry had to be Robert’s”

I don't know if this has been said before. I'm fairly new to the online fanbase so my apologies if it's been said before. But the above passage is from Ned's POV in AGoT. The part that gives me pause is the part in bold.

Ned is often portrayed as the most honorable character, so honorable that honor his greatest downfall. He dies for honor, taking his secrets with him. Anyway, did Ned just give us a clue? That he never could have fathered a bastard based on honor?

It's entirely possible that a drunken Ned thought he was about to die, never setting eyes on his bride again, and found a wench to bed. But it's highly uncharacteristic and I don't believe GRRM makes mistakes that big.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents. Sorry that it's totally unrelated to the conversation in this thread. I've been lurking a while and just had to say it at some point.

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar was sort of flighty before the decision to run away with Lyanna... He was basically a one man emo band. I think that it was in AFFC that Master Aemon? describes him as walking around the ruins of Summerhall alone making up sad ballads rather than attending to matters of State as the Crown Prince with a mentally unbalanced father should. The Court might have thought nothing of it. (As a side note, this is why Rhaegar annoys me so much. Grow up already, seriously).

The question is, would Raeghar even be allowed to? Aerys, who hadn't left KL in years, rushed to the Harrenhall tourney because he thought Raeghar was up to something. Mad as he was, he still seemed sensible enough at that time to realize that Raeghar was way more popular, and IMHO pretty jealous and afraid that his son might rob him of the crown. It is well possible that Raeghar was kept from making decisions in the affairs of state.

I'm assuming that by the time of the Rebellion, Rhaegar was king in everything but name. Aerys was too paranoid about everything, so perhaps the Master of Coin deferred to Rhaegar on matters of finance. Tywin Lannister and Aerys were increasingly at odds, so perhaps Rhaegar was able to get things past Tywin by then. The only question is why Varys didn't know.

See above, or can you provide a quote?

As for Varys, his info gathering is limited by the reach of his spies, so if any arrangements were done outside KL, where neither his little birds nor anyone he had a leverage on could hear them, then Varys is effectively blinded.

- Whoah, I have a crackpot: Raeghar used to take long trips exactly for this reasons: to get out of hearing. He did compose romantic ballads at derelict places, but this was also a wonderful pretext whenever he wanted to arrange something secretly.

It did seem that the King's Guard all knew where to find Rhaegar when he was needed to put down the Rebellion. I don't think that Rhaegar confided his exact plans to Lord Commander Hightower, but Hightower might have assumed that Rhaegar was hanging around the Daynes. I actually think that this suggests that perhaps certain of the Game players don't understand people as much as they think they do. Tywin was killed in the privy after pushing Tyrion over the edge, and I think that Varys will end up being undone by fakeAegon who is sort of an arrogant brat rather than the perfect future puppet Varys seems to think that he is. Perhaps Rhaegar and his plots slipped their minds.

I think that (fake)Aegon is no more a brat than an average sixteen-year-old, but if he was really shaped the way he seems, I wonder very much what he would do if he found out that Varys' informers are abused, tongueless children. Somehow, I see Varys' head flying in the air.

The Martells hate the Lannisters, the family that brutally murdered Elia and her children, and Robert Baratheon, the man who tacitly approved of it. There is nothing that suggests animosity to Ned Stark or to Rhaegar. (Why secretly ally with the Targs. if you hate their Crown Prince for humiliating Elia?) There's the whole idea of Chekov's gun when it comes to literature, so I'm think that the sexual liberation and gender equality associated with the Dorne in AFFC was mentioned for a reason. I think that the Martells were perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking a second wife to fulfill his prophecy as long as Elia was allowed sexual freedom as well. Perhaps there was someone that Elia was in love with as much as Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna. Siince Elia couldn't bear any more children, there was no way that a child from her affair could become part of the line of succession. Gosh, we're talking about the Prince of Dorne's brother having eight acknowledged bastards who play a significant role in Dorne's state affairs as well as the whole fact that Ellariia wasn't all concerned about her paramour setting her aside if he married Cersei in Storm of Swords. She was actually looking forward to threesomes.

If Raeghar truly married Lyanna, it was a secret, so the Martells can't have known, and I'm not sure they would be as comfortable with as you presume: we're talking the succession line to the throne here. On the other hand, if Raeghar took Lyanna as a paramour, they would probably be perfectly fine with it, and probably wouldn't think it strange even for a high-born lady. Therefore, hiding a mistress next to Dorne would actually make sense, since the Dornish would be more comfortable with it than the rest.

[Ygrain]

“The Baratheon look was stamped on his face, in his jaw, his eyes, that black hair. Renly was too young to have fathered a boy of that age, Stannis too cold and proud in his honor. Gendry had to be Robert’s”

I don't know if this has been said before. I'm fairly new to the online fanbase so my apologies if it's been said before. But the above passage is from Ned's POV in AGoT. The part that gives me pause is the part in bold.

Ned is often portrayed as the most honorable character, so honorable that honor his greatest downfall. He dies for honor, taking his secrets with him. Anyway, did Ned just give us a clue? That he never could have fathered a bastard based on honor?

It's entirely possible that a drunken Ned thought he was about to die, never setting eyes on his bride again, and found a wench to bed. But it's highly uncharacteristic and I don't believe GRRM makes mistakes that big.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents. Sorry that it's totally unrelated to the conversation in this thread. I've been lurking a while and just had to say it at some point.

Congrats to your first post :-)

I believe your line of thought is correct - in the matters of honour, Ned is very much like Stannis, and I don't see him going for a one-night affair, or even taking a temporary mistress. Besides, if he did, why keep silent about it? Naming a commoner as his son's mother would do no harm. Naming Ashara would be more problematic, but still, doable - especially to Robert, who was closer to him than a brother. Yet, the name Robert gets is Wylla - and he gets that name because he is the only person in Westeros entitled to command Ned to answer. That is very telling, IMHO.

[Joy Lannister]

1) Is there anything (or a lot of things) you put in the previous books that you expected readers to pick up on, but no one (or very few people) did?

I suspect that the fans have picked up on everything by this point. With so many people reading the books, and sharing their thoughts on blogs and bulletin boards, even the most obscure clues soon are found and pointed out.

Surely he must know about the Theory of theories, R+L=J?

If the most popular and discussed fan theory wasn't correct, he probably wouldn't have said that his fans have picked up on everything.

[Spinebreaker]

It would be a fairly reasonable assumption that most of the small council deferred to Rheagar. Aerys was probably trying to spend all the kingdom's money on buckets half filled with frogs, and believeing that the bread was out to get him. It would be understandable that most of the council would leave him and his paranoia to Varys and put most decisions past his son...

Surely he must know about the Theory of theories, R+L=J?

If the most popular and discussed fan theory wasn't correct, he probably wouldn't have said that his fans have picked up on everything.

He said he *suspected* that people out there have stumbled onto everything. That could well mean that 2 random guys in Reykyavik have noticed a theory, and they've never been on these forums. TBH I'd be VERY surprised if he didn't know about R+L=J, but as we've seen in interviews, he'd just say 'Keep reading'.

[corbon]

ok, so when the hell did Robert fall in love with Lyanna? While she was preggers?

Robert was promised Lyanna well before anything happened, before Harrenhal. Literally years before the war started.

If Raeghar truly married Lyanna, it was a secret, so the Martells can't have known, and I'm not sure they would be as comfortable with as you presume: we're talking the succession line to the throne here.

Marrying Lyanna does nothing to change the succession line to the throne. Aegon will always be Rhaegar's heir. Rhaenys will always be the first of his female heirs.

[Joy Lannister]

He said he *suspected* that people out there have stumbled onto everything. That could well mean that 2 random guys in Reykyavik have noticed a theory, and they've never been on these forums. TBH I'd be VERY surprised if he didn't know about R+L=J, but as we've seen in interviews, he'd just say 'Keep reading'.

I think it's almost impossible for him not to have heard of R+L=J, but indeed it is still possible (even if improbable). What I find more interesting is that in almost every single one of his interviews where the subject of fan theories is concerned, he always says that 1) it's what the internet has led to - now one person can put the clues together, go to the internet, and after two days it's a well-accepted theory; 2) he has no intention of changing a plan just because the fans have figured it out; 3) he doubts that there are many things his fans haven't picked up on;

He can be referring to any one fan theory, or even to several of them, but I doubt there is more than 1% chance that R+L=J is not one of those theories, considering that it's the single most popular theory in aSoIaF. When I read the books and went to the internet to discuss them with someone, R+L=J was the very first theory that I was met with. Really, the Godwin's law of aSoIaF should be: "As an online aSoIaF discussion grows longer, the probability of someone involving the R+L=J theory in it approaches 1." Or something.

It's far from a 100% confirmation, of course, hardly a confirmation at all, but combined with many, many other things in support of R+L=J, it makes it even more probable.

[WhiteWolf26]

Robert was promised Lyanna well before anything happened, before Harrenhal. Literally years before the war started.

Marrying Lyanna does nothing to change the succession line to the throne. Aegon will always be Rhaegar's heir. Rhaenys will always be the first of his female heirs.

It ADDS to the succession line of the throne. Aegon V was the fourth son of the fourth son of King Dareon II and he became king. In that society having only one male heir in your line of sucession was almost irresponsible.

And Elia Martell could bare no more children, it is known.

[Jayaris]

Why would the Kingsguard be outside the tower if Lyanna was in labour?

Why would the Kingsguard fight on front on of the Tower, surely there would be a better vantage point for them somewhere inside the tower?

I'm also not convinced that Ned would fear for Jon's life enough to hide his identity.

Either the Kingsguard underestimated Howland Reed's combat prowess or I think that Lyanna miscarried and they had already given up.

[Ygrain]

Why would the Kingsguard be outside the tower if Lyanna was in labour?

I'm missing the point of your question - are you suggesting they should be of assisstance to her? I believe that a midwife, or just any female who has given birth at least once, would be a greater help.

Why would the Kingsguard fight on front on of the Tower, surely there would be a better vantage point for them somewhere inside the tower?

That would largely depend on the disposition of the tower/keep, and on what they meant to achieve by their last defence - if they really intended to hold the tower as long as possible, or were aware their odds of survival were zero and wanted one last magnificent fight. For the latter, an open space would be more preferrable.

I'm also not convinced that Ned would fear for Jon's life enough to hide his identity.

He had already seen that Robert condoned the murder of Raeghar's children and expressed no mercy for them. Placing his trust that Robert would mainly perceive the child as Lyanna's rather than Raeghar's would be at best 50:50 % chance - probably worse, I suspect, since the child was the cause of Lyanna's death. Next, by nurturing a Targaryen heir, Ned was actively committing treason of his new king, and if that was revealed, it could be the undoing of not just himself personally but the whole House Stark. And, above all - if keeping Jon's identity secret was what he promised Lyanna, then it was a deathbed oath, and these are not to be broken. Ever.

Either the Kingsguard underestimated Howland Reed's combat prowess or I think that Lyanna miscarried and they had already given up.

There were a couple of Ned's retainers present, as well - seven of them, altogether, if I recall correctly - and it may have been that Reed, not being a knight, resorted to some stealth to save Ned.