R+L=J v.19

[LadyMary]

Whoah, I have a crackpot: Raeghar used to take long trips exactly for this reasons: to get out of hearing. He did compose romantic ballads at derelict places, but this was also a wonderful pretext whenever he wanted to arrange something secretly.

Very interesting theory, and it doesn't sound crackpot to me. I always assumed that Rhaegar was just manic-depressive and went away from court when he was in a depressive phase, but maybe he was using his well-known retreats to Summerhall to cover a scheme to depose his insane father, and Harrenhal was where he planned to put the finishing touches on the plot. But Varys got wind of something and warned Aerys and the rest is what we know from the books.

Anyway, it's clear someone in Kings Landing was protecting Rhaegar's secrets from King Aerys. I don't think there was a lot of love lost between most of Aerys's court and the foreign eunuch that whispered secrets in his ear, but I also think it was obvious to everyone else that Aerys was dangerously unstable. At least three of the Kings Guard were with Rhaegar at the ToJ or were taking orders from him over his own father as far as we know. I can't imagine that Rhaegar could have pulled off an "abduction" of Lyanna half a continent away (or arranged a rendevous with her somewhere else) if he didn't have some co-conspirators.

[corbon]

It ADDS to the succession line of the throne. Aegon V was the fourth son of the fourth son of King Dareon II and he became king. In that society having only one male heir in your line of sucession was almost irresponsible.

And Elia Martell could bare no more children, it is known.

Which makes no difference whatsoever to the Martells.

Aegon comes first, then any other male child (which you just agreed there is a responsibility to have and isn't going to be another Martell), then Rhaenys. Marrying Lyanna does nothing to change that.

Their part of the succession is unaffected by marrying Lyanna. So there is no reason for them to be unhappy about it from a succession point of view.

You said yourself, its almost irresponsible to have only one heir.

At least three of the Kings Guard were with Rhaegar at the ToJ or were taking orders from him over his own father as far as we know. I can't imagine that Rhaegar could have pulled off an "abduction" of Lyanna half a continent away (or arranged a rendevous with her somewhere else) if he didn't have some co-conspirators.

Actually we know Hightower was at court when Brandon turned up.

I think Rhaegar was probably only with Dayne, and maybe Whent. I think Hightower probably knew where he was though, and when it was decided Rhaegar was needed to come back to lead the royal army, Hightower went and got him, possibly bringing along Whent and/or another KG (one would think Rhaegar would have a KG during his return trip from ToJ to KL).

[Ghost714]

Robert was promised Lyanna well before anything happened, before Harrenhal. Literally years before the war started.

Marrying Lyanna does nothing to change the succession line to the throne. Aegon will always be Rhaegar's heir. Rhaenys will always be the first of his female heirs.

Unless Aegon and Rhaenys were believed to be dead, then a son of Lyanna's would be Rhaegar's heir. That's why the 3KG stayed at the ToJ.

[Rodrigo Baldin]

Hi there, fellows!

It never ends! :D

I'm on to AFFC as soon as it is released in Brazil, so my opinion might be limited by the first three books.

I do believe that R+L=J, however I think this is not THE song of ice and fire. Actually it might be just another plot. My view.

It would be too freezing...

There´s a lot to come, many treasons, battles and magic stuffs.

If Jon is really Lyanna´s, at least it makes him King of the North, not a bastard. I say that because I dont believe Bran will be back, nor Rickon. I know Jon has his votes to the NW. Someone needs to do something to Boltons and Greyjoys.

But if he does stay in NW like Aemon did, I wonder who would heir the Iron Throne after him (considering there´s no Targaryen - any but Dany - flying around... that´s my guess... don´t believe all Rhaegar´s sons are dead.

[kephv]

however I think this is not THE song of ice and fire. Actually it might be just another plot.

Not sure what you mean by this? You mean he's not the PWwP or something else?

[Alia of the knife]

In my opinion, I think we have to tread carefully on the issue of Elia, the Martels, and Dorne in general being "okay" with Rhaeger taking another wife/paramour.

It was said that they were unhappy with Elias treatment which sounds a lot more to me than Lyanna being a paramour/mistress, which I don't think we can take for granted that Lyanna would sign up for that, especially as we know she is from a proud House.

And to that point, if Dorne was unhappy, either Rhaegar married her, or Rhaegar married her AND put aside Elia, and given the pretty valid theories about possible tensions between Father and Son, he may have put Elia aside, because she had been Aerys choice and not his.

Lyanna is TOO highborn to be a mistress, or paramour. (Think a Cersei, or Caitlyn), and shes a Maid, very different from being a more mature widow who may use her status to cover for such behavior, and we are talking Westeros and the North, not Dorne for how Lyanna would be perceived.

And, I also think that it might just be in the realm of possibility that Lyannas sense of honor may not have allowed her to entertain any real thought that she and Rhaegar might have a way forward.

(I am always amazed at how many people bend over backwards to explain and excuse Rhaegars actions touting his sense of honor, but never giving Lyanna the benefit of the doubt for honor irregardless of whether she wanted to marry Robert, or not).

Again, not anti-Rhaegar, but not a purist either.

Rhaegar probably had very good reason to suspect Rickard would tell him no if he formally asked for her hand, or else he might have sought solace and support to gather an army against his Father in the North as it's isolated and easy to defend.

Dorne is probably the most logical place, because it would be the least suspected place, even if, and perhaps because of any estrangement between he and Elia.

Again, I think Rhaegar was a mix of many things, and that doesn't have to make him negative, but complicated and over confident that everything would just "fall" into place.

I think he was a little manic, and not very happy as many attest to that, and therefore less prone to be realistic.

Meeting Lyanna could have woken something in him and finally drove him to take action, and being able to keep her would be as big a part of it as the positve biproduct of getting rid of Aerys, because being all but King in name only means he gets to do both.

He kept Lyanna hidden away long enough, and pregnant enough that her family and Robert, (epecially Robert), wouldn't push to put the marriage aside.

(Keep in mind that if Robert had been any other man and stepped aside when Rhaegar showed interest, then Rhaegar might have had an easier inroad with the Starks).

I think the KG was fighting to protect Jon as they couldn't know if Ned wouldn't kill Jon, and bring Lyanna back to Robert.

It is true that there are many POV's regarding Rhaegar, and 98% of it is good, but the other common denominator in their POV's is that they all remembered he wanted Lyanna, culminating in Selmys view that thousands died for it too.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

It’s not possible to read all of the R+L=J content across these forums, so although this will have been addressed somewhere else I'm hoping somebody will repeat it here for me.

I'm an R+L=J advocate and for me the strongest indication is the 3 members of the kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy. Foreshadowing, dreams, prophecies and the like all contribute to the debate, but this undisputed fact speaks volumes to me. So in the interest of seeing all sides, what alternative explanation to protecting a targaryen heir has been put forth to explain the presence of the LC of the kingsguard and two of his brothers at the Tower of Joy. A strange place for them to be given the realm & ruling family were threatened with a rebellion.

[FanTasy]

It’s not possible to read all of the R+L=J content across these forums, so although this will have been addressed somewhere else I'm hoping somebody will repeat it here for me.

I'm an R+L=J advocate and for me the strongest indication is the 3 members of the kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy. Foreshadowing, dreams, prophecies and the like all contribute to the debate, but this undisputed fact speaks volumes to me. So in the interest of seeing all sides, what alternative explanation to protecting a targaryen heir has been put forth to explain the presence of the LC of the kingsguard and two of his brothers at the Tower of Joy. A strange place for them to be given the realm & ruling family were threatened with a rebellion.

If you have read ADWD there is an other possible explanation for why the kingsguard were in the south

they were guarding Baby Aegon

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

So would that make Ned complicit in the Aegon plot? He was pretty upset by the murder of Rhaegar's children.

[corbon]

Unless Aegon and Rhaenys were believed to be dead, then a son of Lyanna's would be Rhaegar's heir. That's why the 3KG stayed at the ToJ.

The context was the interest of the Martells.

[corbon]

In my opinion, I think we have to tread carefully on the issue of Elia, the Martels, and Dorne in general being "okay" with Rhaeger taking another wife/paramour. It was said that they were unhappy with Elias treatment which sounds a lot more to me than Lyanna being a paramour/mistress, which I don't think we can take for granted that Lyanna would sign up for that, especially as we know she is from a proud House. And to that point, if Dorne was unhappy, either Rhaegar married her, or Rhaegar married her AND put aside Elia, and given the pretty valid theories about possible tensions between Father and Son, he may have put Elia aside, because she had been Aerys choice and not his.

Waaay off line here.

Dorne doesn't know anything about a marriage to be unhappy about it. There is no talk of 'putting aside Elia' that we know of for them to be unhappy about. The very idea is entirely made up by people who forget, or wish to ignore, the polygamy precedent. Dorne is unhappy about Elias treatment by the Lannisters.

They may also have been unimpressed by the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal, but that is a minor thing really.

[WhiteWolf26]

Which makes no difference whatsoever to the Martells.

Aegon comes first, then any other male child (which you just agreed there is a responsibility to have and isn't going to be another Martell), then Rhaenys. Marrying Lyanna does nothing to change that.

Their part of the succession is unaffected by marrying Lyanna. So there is no reason for them to be unhappy about it from a succession point of view.

You said yourself, its almost irresponsible to have one heir.

I think were arguing for the same point? I guess the way I wrote it was confusing. I was agreeing that the Martells would be accepting of Rhaegar taking another wife in order to further his line of sucession.

I know we've talked about Rhaegar laying down the groundwork for Aegon to be similar to Aegon the Conquorer before on this thread, and the possibility that he was expecting his third child to be female and he would name her Visenya like Aegon I and his sisters etc etc...but wasn't Rhaenys the younger sister of Aegon I? If Rhaegar was really planning for this he would have named his first born daughter Visenya right?

And on a side note who do you think picked the name Jon?

Ned? Lyanna? Or possibly Rhaegar?(after his close friend Jon Connington.)

[sansabird]

And on a side note who do you think picked the name Jon?

Ned? Lyanna? Or possibly Rhaegar?(after his close friend Jon Connington.)

Oh I've never thought about before! But when authors use the same name twice it usually has some other meaning. Grrm could have picked any name for Snow or Connington. Why give them the same name?

Sure there are people like the Greatjon and others but I think that's different.. Could be meaningless but I like that theory.

[Dragonfish]

Dorne is unhappy about Elias treatment by the Lannisters.

They may also have been unimpressed by the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal, but that is a minor thing really.

I believe Alia is referring to the SSM where George says the Dornish were not happy with Rhaegar's treatment of Elia, andt that this was one of the reasons Doran did not commit himself completely to the Targaryen cause during the war. Of course, his priorities changed once Elia and her children were outright murdered by the Lannisters, which certainly outweighed whatever slight Rhaegar may have committed.

And on a side note who do you think picked the name Jon?

Ned? Lyanna? Or possibly Rhaegar?(after his close friend Jon Connington.)

For what it's worth, George has said that it was Ned who most likely named Jon.

[Alia of the knife]

Waaay off line here.

Dorne doesn't know anything about a marriage to be unhappy about it. There is no talk of 'putting aside Elia' that we know of for them to be unhappy about. The very idea is entirely made up by people who forget, or wish to ignore, the polygamy precedent. Dorne is unhappy about Elias treatment by the Lannisters.

They may also have been unimpressed by the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal, but that is a minor thing really.

We agree to disagree on how we think Rhaegar planned to utilize that precedent.

The Dornish:

They were unhappy about Rhaegars betrayal of Elia-whatever form that took.

And of course they were furious over her murder and her childrens murder by the Lannisters- even Ned Stark was furious about that.

[Fire Eater]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna ever married, which septon married them?

My theory is Septon Meribald, married them, he was the best choice. He was a traveling septon who performed marriages all over the riverlands, Rhaegar could have worn a hood to hide his visage and the odds of Meribald recalling a specific marriage he performed in Anywhere, Riverlands become slimmer.

[kephv]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna ever married, which septon married them?

My theory is Septon Meribald, married them, he was the best choice. He was a traveling septon who performed marriages all over the riverlands, Rhaegar could have worn a hood to hide his visage and the odds of Meribald recalling a specific marriage he performed in Anywhere, Riverlands become slimmer.

Or Lyanna could've insisted on a Northern style wedding. Only the Old Gods need witness that.

[Fire Eater]

Or Lyanna could've insisted on a Northern style wedding. Only the Old Gods need witness that.

Or Bran may witness that

[sansabird]

Or Lyanna could've insisted on a Northern style wedding. Only the Old Gods need witness that.

Maybe. But where would they find a Weirwood that far south? Don't get me wrong I like the theory but I think it's unlikely.

I think she would have had to be so in love that she would marry Rhaegar anwhere and under any circumstance. I picture her as tough on the outside like Arya but with the inwardly thoughts and actions of Sansa.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If you have read ADWD there is an other possible explanation for why the kingsguard were in the south

they were guarding Baby Aegon

I don't believe this. I think it was two separate things and I don't think the three Kingsguard at the Tower knew that "Aegon" was still "alive." I mean, I think Aegon was actually killed and Young Griff is a fake. But even if he had survived as has been claimed, I don't think the guys at the Tower knew about it.