R+L=J v.19

[Westerosi Dude]

Doesn't it seem as though Jon is going to be very similar to Aragorn in Lord of the Rings? The exiled ranger heir to the throne who's destiny is to defeat (using the sword Andruil/ Lightbringer) the existential threat (Mordor/ Others) which threatens the rest of the continent? From watching the scene in the movie version of Lord of the Rings where Elrond presents Anduril to Aragorn saying "put aside the ranger, become who you were born to be", I am struck by how fitting such a scene would be for Jon in A Song of Ice and Fire. I could also imagine whoever is in effective control of King's Landing at the time when Jon's identity is revealed - possibly Mace Tyrell - being like Denethor in LOTR saying "word has reached my ears of this Jon Snow, son of Rheagar, and I tell you now - I will not bow to this ranger from the North!". It all fits!

[Ygrain]

Because it's the standard hero archetype/stereotype. :-)

Besides, Aragorn is not really exiled (his ancestors were not cast out, their kingdom only ceased to exist), and while his sword is crucial as his family heritage, it was never meant to defeat Sauron. Also, the _real_ Aragorn does not need Elrond to tell him to take up his heritage - in this respect, he is more like Dany: "I have a right to the throne and now I'm going to claim it, since my hour has come".

[WhiteWolf26]

Isn't it marked as a ruin? My version of ADWD doesn't have it on the map so I'm kind of flying blind here. It's possible that Ned tore the tower itself down but had to leave the foundation. In which, it would still qualify as a ruin.

No its listed as a castle. Strange.

[LadyMary]

In what map does the Tower of Joy appear? I don't recall seeing it. I always just assumed it was near the red mountains of Dorne and not far from Starfall, since that's where the Daynes come from and Arthur was Rhaegar's BFF.

[WhiteWolf26]

In what map does the Tower of Joy appear? I don't recall seeing it. I always just assumed it was near the red mountains of Dorne and not far from Starfall, since that's where the Daynes come from and Arthur was Rhaegar's BFF.

Its in the front cover of my ADWD copy. The wiki actually has it listed as well. Its located along the Prince's Pass.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No its listed as a castle. Strange.

Huh. Then I don't know. Perhaps it's a mistake or perhaps Ned didn't entirely tear it down. From where I'm sitting it seems like a contradiction or a continuity error.

[LadyMary]

Its in the front cover of my ADWD copy. The wiki actually has it listed as well. Its located along the Prince's Pass.

Okay, I have the e-book and I don't remember seeing it in the map. I'll look again. Thanks.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay, I have the e-book and I don't remember seeing it in the map. I'll look again. Thanks.

For some reason some copies of the hardcover (like mine) don't have a map of the south included. So your version just might not have it.

[Alia of the knife]

I'd always assumed that the TOJ was a complete unknown since much was made of no one being able to find Rhaegar.

He had to take them to a place where no one could find them.

People would know to look at Summerhall, or Dragonstone.

I guess Rhaegar hid them under everyones noses, but least expected? :dunce:

[Jem]

In what map does the Tower of Joy appear? I don't recall seeing it. I always just assumed it was near the red mountains of Dorne and not far from Starfall, since that's where the Daynes come from and Arthur was Rhaegar's BFF.

Apparently not all copies of ADWD had all of the maps. I know mine didn't have any maps of Westeros.

Here is a link to the map of southern Westeros: http://a1018.g.akamai.net/f/1018/19022/1d/randomhouse1.download.akamai.com/19022/images/A_Dance_With_Dragons/the_south.jpg

As you can see the ToJ is situated in The Prince's Pass. It's close-ish to Starfall, but not super close.

[Ygrain]

Can't it have been rebuilt? Originally, it must have been built for a strategic purpose, like guarding that mountain pass; could the place be of strategic value?

[corbon]

Apparently not all copies of ADWD had all of the maps. I know mine didn't have any maps of Westeros.

Here is a link to the map of southern Westeros: http://a1018.g.akama...s/the_south.jpg

As you can see the ToJ is situated in The Prince's Pass. It's close-ish to Starfall, but not super close.

That's weird. I could swear I've seen it located on a map at about the bottom of the first g in High Hermitage.

[Ghost714]

Can't it have been rebuilt? Originally, it must have been built for a strategic purpose, like guarding that mountain pass; could the place be of strategic value?

I thought it was said that Rhaegar built the ToJ, or he had it built?? Because some people have said that Rhaegar naming it The Tower of Joy, suggests that it was a place of happiness and joy for him and Lyanna, thus giving us another clue, that Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was consensual, and loving. Unlike Robert's version of the story, that it was rape and not consensual.

I swear I'm not making this up lol

Can anyone else back me up here? Does anyone else know what I'm talking about....or am I just crazy?

[corbon]

I thought it was said that Rhaegar built the ToJ, or he had it built?? Because some people have said that Rhaegar naming it The Tower of Joy, suggests that it was a place of happiness and joy for him and Lyanna, thus giving us another clue, that Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was consensual, and loving. Unlike Robert's version of the story, that it was rape and not consensual.

I swear I'm not making this up lol

Can anyone else back me up here? Does anyone else know what I'm talking about....or am I just crazy?

I recall reading that Rhaegar named it such.

[Ghost714]

I recall reading that Rhaegar named it such.

That's what I thought.

[FanTasy]

No map of the South in ADWD Hardcover Harper/Voyager First print.

Is the location as stated in the wiki confirmed by GRRM?

I'm on a re-read for all specific mentionings of R, L, R+L.

In AGOT, Ned's dream sequence, there is mentioning of him seeing the Kingsguard near a tower which is not named. The red mountains of Dorne are in the background.

Somebody online who can give a quote of where it is said and by whom that Lyanna was kept by Rhaegar in a tower, which he named 'Tower of Joy'?

I always suspected this name 'Tower of Joy' is out of a song. The song for instance Asha talks about when she meets Theon at Pyke.

^{edited for fuzzy English}

[Ygrain]

I think the reference is definitely there, somewhere, that Raeghar named the Tower of Joy; not sure about the construction, though. So, either he re-named (and possibly reconstructed a bit) an already existing structure, or he had it built - in which case, he either had it built previously, as a refuge from the world (he was known to make long tours for Summerhall etc., so maybe he wanted a quiet secret spot just for himself), or had it built specifically to hide there with Lyanna, which would mean that he/they had planned that at least ever since Harrenhall, since you don't build a tower overnight (would it even be possible to build such a tower in, how long? less than a year?)

[Ghost714]

I think the reference is definitely there, somewhere, that Raeghar named the Tower of Joy; not sure about the construction, though. So, either he re-named (and possibly reconstructed a bit) an already existing structure, or he had it built - in which case, he either had it built previously, as a refuge from the world (he was known to make long tours for Summerhall etc., so maybe he wanted a quiet secret spot just for himself), or had it built specifically to hide there with Lyanna, which would mean that he/they had planned that at least ever since Harrenhall, since you don't build a tower overnight (would it even be possible to build such a tower in, how long? less than a year?)

Rhaegar might have only named or re-named the Tower, the Tower of Joy.

And yes I think it would be possible for Rhaegar to have the ToJ built pretty fast, he is the Crowned Prince after all.

Maybe Rhaegar had the Tower built as a refuge for himself, but later named it the ToJ, after Rhaegar and Lyanna had given the Tower a reason to be named "Tower of Joy"(after Jon was conceived mayhaps lol)

[Buried Treasure]

I believe it is us on the forums that gave the place it's capitilisation. I think the quote was something like 'Rheagar called it his tower of joy but for Ned it held only sadness.' So before Rhaegar claimed it, it may have just been a small, nameless keep.

I wonder if it on lands controlled by the Dayne's? Any keep that is habitable would be owned by someone and I think the younger Dayne's would let Rhaegar use a tower that belonged to their family. Or it may have been a royal keep controlling a route through the mountains - perhaps built by the Young Dragon?

[FanTasy]

I believe it is us on the forums that gave the place it's capitilisation. I think the quote was something like 'Rheagar called it his tower of joy but for Ned it held only sadness.' So before Rhaegar claimed it, it may have just been a small, nameless keep.

Thanks. Any idea in which book this quote is and by whom? If it is in AGOT in one of Ned;s p.o.v.'s I must have missed it completely - which is not impossible of course :bang: Is it in the Barristan chapters?

ETA Gotcha! It is in AGOT Eddard X. Ned thinks about pulling the tower down and using the 'bloody' stones to build eight cairns.

<It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.>

So it is likely that the tower where the fight was between the three Kingsguard and the seven men from the North was near a tower of which it was said that Rhaegar named it Tower of Joy.

I suppose it was not a tower of an inhabited castle, unless the owners gave Ned permission to pull down one of their towers. :drunk:

A small keep, a watchtower, maybe something like that.