From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

[brashcandy]

Can I just add that whilst I agree she didn't warg Sandor during the battle, and I do believe it was just an awfully terrifying dream, if Sandor is a replacement for Lady, doesn't that kinda mean that her taking possession of him, even by accident, would be easier? It's not like the two of them have a normal relationship anyhow. So far, we might consider these as clues:

- Get her a dog, she'd be happier for it

- Sansa reaching out to basically pat the fierce dog when her about Gregor

- Sandor seeming to sense what she was about to do when she wanted to push Joff from the battlements

- Sandor telling her a dog can smell a lie, just after she said that Lady could sniff out falsehood

- When he cries "Enough" during her beating by Boros, is that just his reaction, or is he too physically sensing her distress.

- His being there to protect her when she's in peril - during the riot he had gone off after a peasant, how does he return to her side so quickly?

- the last chapter Rapsie reviewed talks of a shadow reaching out and grabbing her to prevent her falling. The shadow is Sandor, but is that merely telling us how shrouded in darkness he was, or is he Sansa's shadow too?

Ultimately, whether we think she can warg him easily or not, (and typing that is always weird :)), I think we can admit that they do have unusual connection that seems to make them instinctively sense what the other is thinking, and when they're hurting or in pain. There's a bond between them that is yet unbroken by time and space.

[Grail King]

Can I just add that whilst I agree she didn't warg Sandor during the battle, and I do believe it was just an awfully terrifying dream, if Sandor is a replacement for Lady, doesn't that kinda mean that her taking possession of him, even by accident, would be easier? It's not like the two of them have a normal relationship anyhow. So far, we might consider these as clues:

- Get her a dog, she'd be happier for it

- Sansa reaching out to basically pat the fierce dog when her about Gregor

- Sandor seeming to sense what she was about to do when she wanted to push Joff from the battlements

- Sandor telling her a dog can smell a lie, just after she said that Lady could sniff out falsehood

- When he cries "Enough" during her beating by Boros, is that just his reaction, or is he too physically sensing her distress.

- His being there to protect her when she's in peril - during the riot he had gone off after a peasant, how does he return to her side so quickly?

- the last chapter Rapsie reviewed talks of a shadow reaching out and grabbing her to prevent her falling. The shadow is Sandor, but is that merely telling us how shrouded in darkness he was, or is he Sansa's shadow too?

Ultimately, whether we think she can warg him easily or not, (and typing that is always weird :)), I think we can admit that they do have unusual connection that seems to make them instinctively sense what the other is thinking, and when they're hurting or in pain. There's a bond between them that is yet unbroken by time and space.

Totally agree, the only way she could get control of him would be at his lowest point near despair that is possible but that point I think was reached with Arya and she left him for dead.

[brashcandy]

Good points about Joffrey and Littlefinger's not getting over being embarrassed in front of various girls and then taking out their rage on them and others. Sandor and Sansa seem to have a very different and unusual relationship; and on some level, at least at this point, they trust each other and seem to be able to communicate on a fairly deep level, not always with words. Joffrey doesn't trust anyone except Mommy; and Littlefinger trusts no one; though he seems to be closer in trust with Sansa than he is with anyone else we know (perhaps, in LF's very complex and pervy mind, he thinks he is grooming Sansa to be an eventual partner as well as a pawn and agent; I do think he plans on eventually marrying her after she's a widow with highborn children whose domain will need a Lord Protector)...

And you know what's ironic Raksha, is that after Joffrey was "humiliated" Sansa still believed in him and still thought he was brave and strong; but in his fear and anger over her seeing him as weak, he ends up fulfilling the very image of himself that he didn't want her to see. If we compare Joffrey to Sandor, the former starts out as Sansa's ideal of the true knight/prince, someone heroic and dashing, but he ends up, solely by his actions, reversing this opinion she had of him, and revealing himself to be a monster. Whereas Sandor starts off as the one she is afraid of, the one she doesn't see as having any heroic potential, and he ends up, again, by his actions, becoming a true knight in all but name.

[Elba the Intoner]

Welcome adreamer. What I like about these forums is that it gives you ideas about things that I would never have come up with on my own. The idea that Sansa warged some victims of the riot has some potential, though I don't remember Lollys getting her teeth bashed in. Aron Santagar's head was crushed at some point though and since that would be a deathly blow it could have been a warging into him as he was dying. I'll never disregard any crackpot theory because you never know, but my own personal hope is that Sansa never wargs Sandor. I like their relationship as it is and how Sansa seems to empathize with him intuitively and I think it would ruin the dynamic they have. Plus as Grail King said I don't think Sandor would "allow" it.

I also have to say I am not sure how I feel about Sansa warging a dragon or any other strong animals, though I do think it's a given she will warg birds - all the flying references, her nickname, and her going to the eyrie. Part of what I like about her character is that she is the most like real life in the sense that she has to rely solely on her wits and courtesies. After she was taken captive in AGOT, I'll admit that when I heard her think how a ladies courtesy is her armor, I thought, "Oh this girl does not stand a chance!" But guess what, she is still standing. Why? Because compassion and courtesy can go a long way. There are one or two souls in Kings Landing, not many for sure, but a couple who are moved to help her because of it and it is fascinating to watch. Sure kickass Arya is cool and fun to read, right up until she got to the Faceless Men which I am hating, but it's not as "real" to me.

[Starbird]

my own personal hope is that Sansa never wargs Sandor. I like their relationship as it is and how Sansa seems to empathize with him intuitively and I think it would ruin the dynamic they have. .....

I also have to say I am not sure how I feel about Sansa warging a dragon or any other strong animals, ..... Part of what I like about her character is that she is the most like real life in the sense that she has to rely solely on her wits and courtesies. ..... Sure kickass Arya is cool and fun to read, right up until she got to the Faceless Men which I am hating, but it's not as "real" to me.

I second all of this. Any time I think about Sansa's story involving warging, I squirm and get a weird taste in my mouth. Like Elba said, I like that her story is the most "real life" one of the major POV characters. Also, from a purely selfish standpoint, I enjoy living vicariously through Sansa and being the object of Sandor's attentions. I can't do that if she starts warging because I can't relate to that at all. So, I just . . . don't want that as part of her story.

BC - absolutely brilliant analysis of humiliation as it relates to Sandor and LF! I think you've definitely exposed something important there. One thing I'd suggest in addition is the reinforcement (for lack of a better word) that their nicknames supply. Petyr was dubbed Littlefinger by one of the Tullys (Hoster?), which derides his house, his worth as a suitor for Cat, and his manhood all at once. He was just a kid then, who was booted out of Riverrun into obscurity, and yet the nickname still stuck whenever he reappeared in high society, and it's a nickname used frequently to his face, so he's constantly reminded of his humiliation and shortcomings, both financial and, really, as a man. Yet he grows up to be Master of Coin and owner of several (if not more) brothels, which almost seem to be retorts to Hoster Tully's reasons for rejecting his suit ("you're too poor to sleep with my daughter," but now he's rich and many, many people are "sleeping with" Petyr via his brothels). I know almost every single character has a nickname but the constant use of this derogatory one in Petyr's case, despite his now-very high social status, must reinforce to him how little anyone cared about him and the humiliation he suffered at the hands of the Tullys. (I admit, I feel pity for him. Treating a, what?, 15 or 16 year old kid that way is just horrible, no matter what he grew up to become.)

The connection's not as tight with Sandor but what's a hound if not loyal and unthinking in doing his master's bidding? That's pretty much what Sandor was doing all those years, and it suited him just fine. So, the nickname here was positive reinforcement, where as LF's is negative.

[brashcandy]

I agree Starbird, and the role of nicknames and how they function to define characters in the series is one that is worth analysing. I think GRRM is suggesting that we can all be named by others, at a time when we were young, or displaying certain characteristics etc, but for a name to have any meaning, i.e. for a person's life to have any meaning, we have to transcend those nicknames (not necessarily give them up), but invest them with different significations that no longer correlate to their original concepts (which are often most times derogatory, belittling, negative)

So "Littlefinger" and Tyrion "the Imp" strive to become giants

Sansa as the "little bird" needs to learn how to fly from her cage and survive in a cruel world.

Sandor as "the Hound" has to find a master that he can respect and who respects him. Blind service needs to be transfigured into thoughtful loyalty.

[David Selig]

It was Edmure who came up with "Littlefinger" for Petyr, not Hoster. I've sometimes wondered what he really thinks about this nickname. Has he shown a negative reaction when called by it by anyone? I don't recall, but that in itself doesn't mean much since Petyr is excellent at controlling himself and lying.

Anyway, interesting discussion, I don't have much else to add, just want to say I really like reading this thread.

[brashcandy]

It was Edmure who came up with "Littlefinger" for Petyr, not Hoster. I've sometimes wondered what he really thinks about this nickname. Has he shown a negative reaction when called by it by anyone? I don't recall, but that in itself doesn't mean much since Petyr is excellent at controlling himself and lying.

Anyway, interesting discussion, I don't have much else to add, just want to say I really like reading this thread.

Yes, David, it was Edmure and I don't think it was an attempt to denigrate Petyr but rather an observation that he came from the smallest island of the Fingers I believe, hence "Littlefinger". What's not in doubt however is how LF resents people thinking he was never good enough or worth enough, not for Cat, not even Lysa and later Sansa. So, whilst he may show no outward dislike for the nickname, everything he has done in his life has been about defying it.

[1234567]

Given LF puts ideas into Joff's head (Ned getting beheaded, the Jousting Dwarves and Tyrion), I wonder if there is any correlation between LF being away to speak to the Tyrells when Joff has Sansa stripped and beaten. Did he plant this idea or would he have stopped it?

[brashcandy]

Given LF puts ideas into Joff's head (Ned getting beheaded, the Jousting Dwarves and Tyrion), I wonder if there is any correlation between LF being away to speak to the Tyrells when Joff has Sansa stripped and beaten. Did he plant this idea or would he have stopped it?

I tend to think Joff came up with that one all on his own, although I have no doubt that LF really wouldn't have cared if Sansa was stripped and beaten. If Joff had ordered her throat cut, then he might have had a reaction.

[Starbird]

Given LF puts ideas into Joff's head (Ned getting beheaded, the Jousting Dwarves and Tyrion), I wonder if there is any correlation between LF being away to speak to the Tyrells when Joff has Sansa stripped and beaten. Did he plant this idea or would he have stopped it?

I've been wondering if she wasn't stripped because of Sandor's attempted intervention. He says, "Enough," and Joffrey immediately overrules him and orders Boros to make her naked.

[Fragile Bird]

Back for a moment to warging - it just crossed my mind that our little bird could end up warging a raven and share time with Bran, either as a raven together with him or visiting him. There's a thought to ponder.

[Raksha the Demon]

Welcome adreamer. What I like about these forums is that it gives you ideas about things that I would never have come up with on my own. The idea that Sansa warged some victims of the riot has some potential, though I don't remember Lollys getting her teeth bashed in. Aron Santagar's head was crushed at some point though and since that would be a deathly blow it could have been a warging into him as he was dying. I'll never disregard any crackpot theory because you never know, but my own personal hope is that Sansa never wargs Sandor. I like their relationship as it is and how Sansa seems to empathize with him intuitively and I think it would ruin the dynamic they have. Plus as Grail King said I don't think Sandor would "allow" it.

I also have to say I am not sure how I feel about Sansa warging a dragon or any other strong animals, though I do think it's a given she will warg birds - all the flying references, her nickname, and her going to the eyrie. Part of what I like about her character is that she is the most like real life in the sense that she has to rely solely on her wits and courtesies. After she was taken captive in AGOT, I'll admit that when I heard her think how a ladies courtesy is her armor, I thought, "Oh this girl does not stand a chance!" But guess what, she is still standing. Why? Because compassion and courtesy can go a long way. There are one or two souls in Kings Landing, not many for sure, but a couple who are moved to help her because of it and it is fascinating to watch. Sure kickass Arya is cool and fun to read, right up until she got to the Faceless Men which I am hating, but it's not as "real" to me.

I'm not wild about Arya's arc with the Faceless Men either; I don't believe it as easily as I believe Sansa's story. I found Arya and her story more engaging when she was wandering through Westeros. It's interesting, though, that Arya's situation was ultimately improved by a single act of compassion, her saving the men who were bound in the cart from the fire, one of them being Jaquen Hatar - he gives her lives to kill as payment, Arya impresses him, he leaves her the coin that buys her a refuge, albeit one that is turning her into a hired murderer.

Sansa's courtesy and compassion would probably not have saved her if she had fled on her own or with Arya; just as Arya's ferocity would not have helped her if she had been held captive in King's Landing (she just would have been beaten more, put in a dungeon, made to suffer in all kinds of ways). But in a court of many different people, i.e. Cersei Lannister's court, Sansa could and did make a few friends.

I'd rather that Sansa didn't warg Sandor either. I don't think she needs to...Since GRRM has apparently said that all the Stark kids have the warging ability to some extent, Sansa can warg, but maybe her ability is on such a low level that she will never be consciously aware of it; which would leave Sansa essentially a normal girl. I do like the idea of her warging birds, though; and she is definitely identified with them.

[brashcandy]

I've been wondering if she wasn't stripped because of Sandor's attempted intervention. He says, "Enough," and Joffrey immediately overrules him and orders Boros to make her naked.

I think this is what Joff always wanted to have happen. Sexual torture/humiliation is a turn on for him, like it is for Ramsay Snow. In this chapter, him wanting Sansa to kiss the sword and then telling her she would taste his uncle's blood on it when he returned ... Joff really was a sick fuck with the mindset/intelligence of a 5 yr old. Truly the most dangerous.

[bgona]

Ooohhh!!! In the Spanish version they use the same name to Joffrey´s sword. (The first sword). Lion´s Fang (that it is my translation). The second sword is Heartseater (of something like that). And the third one Moanwidow (Oathkeeper is the sword of Jaime, from Ice they got 2 swords).

It is interesting that Sansa misremembered the name of the sword. And important! If she did that, then I must believe that she is begining to have a principle of alzheimer. Added at not remembering what had happened at the Trident between Joffrey and Arya. I really hope that Grrm doesn´t follow this line that I have exposed.

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About Sansa warging people. I believe right now it is impossible. Even weak people as Hodor fight the first time that they are warged. And after in her dream she felt a dagger in her belly.

I haven´t read about the bedrobe. But I think remember that before going to the Godswood for her first appointment with Dontos she first was in bedrobe and after she changed quickly.

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Grial King I also see Spartacus.

[Grail King]

Ooohhh!!! In the Spanish version they use the same name to Joffrey´s sword. (The first sword). Lion´s Fang (that it is my translation). The second sword is Heartseater (of something like that). And the third one Moanwidow (Oathkeeper is the sword of Jaime, from Ice they got 2 swords).

It is interesting that Sansa misremembered the name of the sword. And important! If she did that, then I must believe that she is begining to have a principle of alzheimer. Added at not remembering what had happened at the Trident between Joffrey and Arya. I really hope that Grrm doesn´t follow this line that I have exposed.

----------------

About Sansa warging people. I believe right now it is impossible. Even weak people as Hodor fight the first time that they are warged. And after in her dream she felt a dagger in her belly.

I haven´t read about the bedrobe. But I think remember that before going to the Godswood for her first appointment with Dontos she first was in bedrobe and after she changed quickly.

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Grial King I also see Spartacus.

Yeah, last year was great I had GOT, Spartacus, and Camelot, I didn't like a blond Arthur or Guinevere, but! Eva Green was a great Morgan Le Fay.

[brashcandy]

Just thought of something. Rapsie made a connection between Symeon Star-Eyes and Brienne, and we know the established links already between Sandor and Aemon the Dragonknight. So should we take Cersei's words at the end of the chapter to be prophetic? After all, Brienne was sent on a quest to find Sansa.. Does this mean we could see Sandor and Brienne teaming up?

[Elba the Intoner]

Just thought of something. Rapsie made a connection between Symeon Star-Eyes and Brienne, and we know the established links already between Sandor and Aemon the Dragonknight. So should we take Cersei's words at the end of the chapter to be prophetic? After all, Brienne was sent on a quest to find Sansa.. Does this mean we could see Sandor and Brienne teaming up?

Cool! I'd like to see that.

[brashcandy]

Cool! I'd like to see that.

:) Me too, but come to think of it, doesn't Jaime Lannister provide a credible comparison to Aemon the Dragonknight as well? There's the incest factor, the unworthy king in Robert, and didn't he cry when Cersei got married? Or at least Cersei remembers him looking very upset? Can anyone cite the exact quote?

[Caro99]

i've found the quote. it's a cersei chapter in the 4th book & she's going to meet the new high septon. in the great sept of baelor she recalls her wedding day and how everyone had smiled (in contrast to the present mob) and robert remarking how every face was smiling. "For that one short moment she had been happy in her marriage... until she chanced to glance at jaime. no, she remembered thinkinhg, not every face, my lord."

and i think brienne will be symeone star-eyed and sandor prince aemon-- though jaime also seems like a possible candidate.

Welcome Adreamer! :)

And finally after trying to fully comprehend the eargin dream theory i am still of my inital view that sansa didn't warg sandor in the nightmare or others at the riot. for me the moment where a possible wargin could have occured would be with the misremembering kiss (she cupped his cheek and she entered his mind as sandor thought they were about to kiss?) but it's just too up in the air, since sansa lost lady maybe this helps her to have such an intresting and deep connection with sandor?

and yes, sandor would have minded sansa warging him imo. he has such a low conception of his worth that i can't see why he would want his little bird to get inside his mind.