From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

[brashcandy]

Hehe, :) I know how you feel about Dany and your association of Dragons is probably very tied up with her. My views on Dany, and Dragons, human or beast, are not very positive I admit, but I actually didn't have her or her sweet babies in mind for that comparison. I really was just thinking of Dragons, the beasts, independently and how their ferocity and tendency towards destruction (I think we can all agree fire-breathing dragons are not cuddly pets) contrast to the dragonfly.

Oh yes :) I totally understood your larger point, and I agree. Sansa will never be ( I hope not) the ferocious beast, callously discarding everything in its past. I do think she will keep the sensibility of the dragonfly, even if she achieves the power of the dragon.

[bgona]

My comment and impression of the chapter:

Sansa notices that something is bad looking at The Hound (again: she is looking at him, she reads in Sandor´s eyes).

She is growing, she feels her garment tight at her breast.

In their conversation, The Hound tells her that she has been well trained (and I believe that it is a compliment).

I didn´t realize how many soldiers and army men where there.

The yellow cat dying remembers me at the cat that Joffrey´s kill and Robert got mad at him. It represents that he can do all the evil that he wants and nobody will stop him. He even kills people that ask for food, and he is proud of it. And he kills them with a crossbow. He is not so brave to kill them in a fight, he kills them at the distance.

Lancel: he acts as he is. Like a dumb ass (sorry for the bad words). All the northmen are wargs? Eat the meat of the deaths? They don´t want to reconigze that Robb is better fighter, they are angry and they took on the weakest one (Sansa).

Dontos: at the begining I didn´t like him. You pointed that he was acting just helping Sansa. I have to agree to that. However: I just wanted see what would do The Hound. He did the better he could, but it wasn´t enough (I believe that it was something normal in his life).

Sandor: he help Sansa putting her up gentle. He didn´t jump at the comand. He stay doing nothing. It is the first time that Joffrey comand the Hound to hurt Sansa. I am sure that if have being in private he would say something as making that doesn´t mind him, but trying to help Sansa. In front of so many people will have the opposite effect. Joffrey wants that Sansa gets beat in front of all, and somebody helping (even in a soft way) Sansa will make it worse to both (less for Dontos, that he has the freedom of the buffoon).

The "enough" word it is as neon lights. And the tone more. He is only capable of saying one word. As somebody pointed he was tense, almost ready to get in action. Cause the cloark he throwed it really quickly.

This is one of the sentences that I laugh of Bronn said at Boros and Meryn about being careful if not their cloarks will get dirties. Not only cause the obvious meaning of fighting and get defeat but also due to the symbolism that they are already dirties.

Tyrion argues with Joffrey. And he says really good things about treating at her Queen, and making a simile with the Mad King (it will be Joffreys death as it was the death of Mad King). They were kill for their outragethings.

Pointing things: Joffrey´s reign had been real short, even shorter than the Imp and he was killed to prevent pain in his Queen = Margaery ). So this brings out the meaning that it is better to be loved than feared (in opposite to Cersei thinkings, that shows where Cersei always fall when she rules).

She is in the old Arya bedroom, but the furniture is moved. I believe that now Sansa is going to revenge that outrageous, but in a different way that Arya would do it.

Sansa and Tyrion: she couldn´t stop looking at him. Why at The Hound she can´t look and to The Imp she can´t stop it?

Tyrion doesn´t believe in the warging. He shows a lot of sense, but he is missing something (how the Northmen got to the Lannister camp). He is missing that probably was done by warging Grey Wind. So that shows than even Tyrion with all his intelligence he misses things by not given then the right importance.

[bgona]

Hmmm - so the trick is to eat the fruit without getting dirtied by it... i.e. play the game with no one suspecting your involvement?

That´s what LF tells her. And if you get dirty, you have to clean up (i.e.: kill Dontos)

[Fragile Bird]

If Sansa can continue to remain untainted by power-hunger, maybe this dragonfly can actually come out on top. I hope she at the very least gets the simple but happy life that she wants, but if she does find herself in a position of power, I think the dragonfly would make a much better ruler than the dragon. Martin keeps repeating the message of people who seek power for its own sake being terrible leaders, while competent people who don't seek power but find themselves possessing it always do a pretty good job.

Oh my, oh my. Shades of Harry Potter......GRRM would have heart failure (wouldn't he???).

As for dresses with dragonflies on them, my goodness how did you catch that? It's an excellent catch! and very interesting analysis.

[Grail King]

Just for General knowledge purposes, and shines a little light on my questions about the relevance of fruit, although I'm not claiming that Martin is necessarily employing any of this symbolism in his writing. BIG Ass Snip to save space

You wrote this and I went looking for a paper I did in high school circa 1969 ( yeah wayyy back) when I wrote like this sooo small my teacher had headaches and now I can't read my on writing.

Any ways some of my notes I found:

Pomagranite : Death, winter I had something on Hades and Persephone and the 4 months she spent with him is winter for the people until she returns.

Peach; PEACE (Renly and Stannis?) or sexual meanings LF is eating a peach, is he donating his desire to hmmm eat Sansa in a perverted way?

Sansa and her lemon cakes, her innocence,friendship, her purity of heart?

I didn't think anything I did in the 60's come back 40+ years later, now I have a big headache from trying to read my old notes.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Pomagranite : Death, winter I had something on Hades and Persephone and the 4 months she spent with him is winter for the people until she returns.

This is actually really important. I remember talking about this in a heresy thread but I don't want to jump the gun because we haven't gotten to the relevant point yet in the reread!

Oh my, oh my. Shades of Harry Potter......GRRM would have heart failure (wouldn't he???).

As for dresses with dragonflies on them, my goodness how did you catch that? It's an excellent catch! and very interesting analysis.

I am an unabashed HP fan, though I make no claims that it's nearly as detailed and deep and asoiaf. I am definitely not the originator of the dragonfly dresses observation. It's been going around the forums for a while because Sansa's wardrobe in the show is supposed to be significant somehow, and many posters caught on that she's often wearing dragonfly related things. Glad to be able to contribute my own cracks to that pot though :)

[Summerqueen]

@ Grail King's post—

It's pleasant to imagine GRRM reading "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" and allowing it to inform the scene where LF eats the peach.

Prufrock's questions ("Do I dare disturb the universe?" and "Do I dare to eat a peach?") are ones made by an aging man wondering if he can afford / manage to draw the attention of younger women onto himself and whether / how they could find him pleasing. Prufrock is obsessed with his loosening teeth, sparse hair, and skinny arms and legs. His world has been ordered in such a way that high class women ignore him. He questions his own temerity at wanting more, and then wonders if he can even handle more should he receive it (as in questioning his sexual potency / charms). He suggests that he is not even the tragic hero (Prince Hamlet) of his own story, though he commits the same flaw of failure to act:

No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;

Am an attendant lord, one that will do

Deferential, glad to be of use,

Politic, cautious, and meticulous;

Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;

At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—

Almost, at times, the Fool.

Prufrock's self observations would seem to resemble the traits LF employs when around greater lords, politic, cautious, a useful tool—completely underrated. Prufrock's self-flagellation at the turn—obtuse, ridiculous, a fool—what LF is most determined not to be. LF's greatest misery seems to be Cat's disregard of him as a suitor. Unlike Prufrock, LF does not accept his failure to attract sophisticated society women like Catelyn. He resents high society's condescension and underestimation of his worth. Though in a similar situation, he becomes a kind of anti-Prufrock. We know very well that he dares to disturb the universe. Heck, he orchestrates the whole system crashing down. And, yes, he dares to eat that peach.

It's probably nothing GRRM thought of while writing, but the two character analyses are pretty interesting when read against one another. Same circumstances, one man can't act, the other is all about bringing his plans to fruition and winning his prize.

[Grail King]

@ Grail King's post—

It's pleasant to imagine GRRM reading "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" and allowing it to inform the scene where LF eats the peach.

Prufrock's questions ("Do I dare disturb the universe?" and "Do I dare to eat a peach?") are ones made by an aging man wondering if he can afford / manage to draw the attention of younger women onto himself and whether / how they could find him pleasing. Prufrock is obsessed with his loosening teeth, sparse hair, and skinny arms and legs. His world has been ordered in such a way that high class women ignore him. He questions his own temerity at wanting more, and then wonders if he can even handle more should he receive it (as in questioning his sexual potency / charms). He suggests that he is not even the tragic hero (Prince Hamlet) of his own story, though he commits the same flaw of failure to act:

Prufrock's self observations would seem to resemble the traits LF employs when around greater lords, politic, cautious, a useful tool—completely underrated. Prufrock's self-flagellation at the turn—obtuse, ridiculous, a fool—what LF is most determined not to be. LF's greatest misery seems to be Cat's disregard of him as a suitor. Unlike Prufrock, LF does not accept his failure to attract sophisticated society women like Catelyn. He resents high society's condescension and underestimation of his worth. Though in a similar situation, he becomes a kind of anti-Prufrock. We know very well that he dares to disturb the universe. Heck, he orchestrates the whole system crashing down. And, yes, he dares to eat that peach.

It's probably nothing GRRM thought of while writing, but the two character analyses are pretty interesting when read against one another. Same circumstances, one man can't act, the other is all about bringing his plans to fruition and winning his prize.

Or maybe he did, he probably had to do same papers as I back then maybe he read the poem, I can't remember if I did, and I'm still suffering a headache to read my sources :drunk: at the end I do know the Britannica and World Books were my friends along with the Yale Library.

I want to thank Brashcandy for the headache :drunk:

[brashcandy]

Or maybe he did, he probably had to do same papers as I back then maybe he read the poem, I can't remember if I did, and I'm still suffering a headache to read my sources :drunk: at the end I do know the Britannica and World Books were my friends along with the Yale Library.

I want to thank Brashcandy for the headache :drunk:

Always happy to oblige! :P

And thank you for the effort of digging back up those notes! I know how daunting that must have been, truly.

[Grail King]

Always happy to oblige! :P

And thank you for the effort of digging back up those notes! I know how daunting that must have been, truly.

Oh! your welcome..............head still hurts :drunk:

[Fragile Bird]

@ Grail King

The Lovesong of JAP was one of my favourite poems in high school. I think the nuns were a little disconcerted when I used it for the "memorize a poem" exercise, but it's given me a lifelong ability to quote it at appropriate occasions. And look superior. :cool4:

I thought about it when Renly ate his peach in front of Stannis, and again when LF ate his peach in front of Sansa at the Fingers keep. Think of Stannis telling Jon Snow that he will remember that peach for the rest of his life. Maybe GRRM was a Prufrock fan after all!

I've been busy re-reading as I'm trying to stay ahead of Brash and Rapsie, and trying to come up with some fresh observations. I can't believe some of the detail they get into: Brash, all that fruit and animal stuff! Thanks!

[brashcandy]

It's probably nothing GRRM thought of while writing, but the two character analyses are pretty interesting when read against one another. Same circumstances, one man can't act, the other is all about bringing his plans to fruition and winning his prize.

That's a fitting term to use given our recent conversation :) I just wanted to chime in and say I enjoyed your discussion of Eliot's poem and like Fragile Bird, it is one of my favourites too (although I regret not memorising it!)

[Summerqueen]

Like Fragile Bird, I cannot think of any literature-bound reference to peaches without thinking of this poem. If Sansa manages to trick or lure LF to a death by drowning, we will know for sure. :D

[Auralie Stone]

I've been enjoying this thread a lot, thanks so much Brashcandy and Rapsie for all your work!

One thing that struck me about this chapter was that Sandor must have been insanely jealous of Tyrion from the moment he walked in.

Sandor is restricted to one word in defense of Sansa, (which Joffrey promptly overrules), but Tyrion is able to step in and stop the abuse immediately with no challenge from the king. Tyrion can tell Joffrey exactly what he thinks of him, even push him around a bit, with no worry of losing his head. He can even threaten the little monster with physical harm and/or calling his mother and get away with it. Furthermore, after the beating Tyrion is able to whisk Sansa away to his tower, get her new clothes, medical attention, food, and rest, while all Sandor can do is give her a cloak. Although we see the symbolism of the cloak, I don't think it would have been at the top of the Hound's radar. All he sees is an ugly dwarf who swoops in and rescues his little bird, while he looks on, powerless.

I haven't had a chance to go back and look through AGoT and the earlier chapters of ACoK for references, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Sandor's animosity toward Tyrion starts from this point. Tyrion has the ability to say and do all the things that Sandor wishes he could, and all Sandor can do is watch helplessly. For someone like the Hound, who prides himself on his strength and independence, this must have been infuriating! Does anyone know how Sandor felt about Tyrion before this event, so we can compare to how he felt afterward?

[brashcandy]

Welcome Auralie, and thanks so much for your kind words. I hope you'll be a regular contributor. :)

Sandor does seem to have hated Tyrion before this event, although I can't imagine it helping matters. I think he resented Tyrion being even uglier than him, and deformed, yet having so much more social power. Or perhaps Tyrion reminds him of himself: the outcast who must depend on his strength and brutality (in Tyrion's case it would be his wits and cunning) to get any recognition or appreciation. I think Sandor was probably extremely grateful that Tyrion stopped her beating, but as you said, his own inability to stop it vs. Tyrion's ease must have been maddening and frustrating.

To come back to your question, we see that Sandor dislikes Tyrion from the very time they visit Winterfell in AGOT. He is threatening and derisive, and it's clear there's no love lost between the two. Even at Joff's name day tourney, when he was generally as polite as we're ever going to see him, Tyrion's appearance seems to rile him up. So it could be that something happened to cause definite enmity between the two, or it could be what I mentioned above. As Tyrion doesn't seem to hate the Hound so much, I tend to believe the latter.

And yes, I think Sandor really really wanted to be the one to comfort Sansa after that beating.

[Summerqueen]

I agree that self-loathing probably plays a part in his dislike as well as feelings of impotence. It must seem to him that Tyrion could do so much more than he does. Tyrion may be despised as the imp, but Sandor's nothing more than a loyal dog to the Lannisters. His situation is more precarious, and he has less agency. I imagine he must certainly see himself when people shy from Tyrion, but Tyrion also has money and a brother's love, which he never had. So jealousy factors in too. At least Tyrion can cuff Joff with impunity.

[1234567]

Summary and Analylsis for the next chapter going up later today. Sorry for the delay.

[Fragile Bird]

Maybe it's just too late to be posting, and thinking straight, but I never thought Sandor resented Tyrion until much further on. I found him fierce but funny from the very start, and liked him from the second time we come across him.

Well the third time, since the first time is when he rides in with the king's entourage, and the second is at the practice session in the yard when he's mouthy to Sir Rodrik.

Now, the third time we see Sandor he's getting suited up by his squire while Joffrey watches and complains about Bran's wolf howling. Sandor offers to silence the creature and Joff makes his famous comment about, send a dog to kill a dog, since there are so many wolves the Starks won't notice one missing.

It's Tyrion's POV, and Tyrion points out to Joffrey the Starks can count to six, unlike some princes he knows. (There's a stab with a pointy stick that I totally missed the first time around!) Next:

Quote

"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!". The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here."

To me Sandor is demonstrating a kind of humour that could be cruel if it was used with a sarcastic, nasty tone of voice, but instead he's obviously been using the same line over and over to amuse his Prince (who even Sandor can tell is a dolt) with a gentle enough tone that Tyrion takes no offence, but just responds the same way he probably always does, saying "down here". He does tell Sandor he's not in the mood for his insolence today, but so what? He probably has a come back for Sandor every time.

That scene made me laugh, because it reminded me of all the times we goofed around in high school or university and said to the tall guy, "How's the weather up there?!?". It wasn't a mean comment, or threatening, or nasty, it was gentle humour and no one ever took offence.

Then Tyrion castigates Joffrey for not having given a statement of comfort to Cat and Ned, Joff is mouthy back to him, and Tyrion slaps him and tells him to go do his duty. Sandor then says:

Quote: "The prince will remember that, little lord," the Hound warned him. The helm turned his laugh into a hollow rumble.

Sandor knows his prince, how vindictive he is, and basically gives Tyrion a more-or-less friendly warning.

Oh, and by the way, I did come across a comment that the Hound was Joffrey's long time guard, but now I've forgotten (yeah, old age) where it was, in response to those who thought he had been Cersei's guard and only recently been with Joff. So, I guess I might try and figure out when things start to get unfriendly between them. But not now, it's 4.00 am. :frown5: and I need to sleep. Now and then.

[voodooqueen126]

I never thought of the Sansa-slaying-a-giant as being a harbinger of her killing Tyrion, of all people; but it's certainly as likely as her killing UnGregor. Sansa has a personal connection to Tyrion; she is his wife. If he comes back to Westeros more bitter and malicious than before, which certainly can be the case, given his attitude in ADWD, Tyrion might contest the annulment to their marriage out of spite or a desire to claim Winterfell in his bride's name. That would give Sansa a motive to kill him. Or suppose that Sansa has had an annulment granted in Tyrion's absentia and made a marriage that is making her happy; perhaps she is pregnant; and Tyrion returns and tells her he will contest the annulment and say that they consummated the marriage. I could see Sansa being motivated to kill Tyrion, if she cannot persuade him not to contest the annulment, especially if Sansa is pregnant; she knows first-hand what bastardy would mean for her child; she has been one and she has seen how Jon Snow was treated. Sansa could kill to protect her child. Tyrion is physically strong enough to strangle a healthy young woman; but if Sansa took him by surprise, with a dagger; he has always underestimated her intelligence and determination, she could incapacitate him and then finish him off.

It could happen. I don't want to see Sansa kill Tyrion, they both deserve better than to have their final confrontation be a fatal one; but it is not impossible. The comparison to Mary Queen of Scots is interesting, and not totally invalid; Mary was attractive, charming, well-educated, romantic; and exhibited very poor judgment as an adult at least.

She could have Tyrion drowned in the White Knife or the Last River, which is much more discreet than stabbing Tyrion.

Henry Holland was drowned between France and England, on the orders of Edward IV. Since Henry Holland was the abusive Lancastrian husband, to their sister Anne of York (although Anne and Henry Holland were divorced by this point anyway).

I presume Anne, who had suffered at Holland's hands was okay with the plot

[voodooqueen126]

I personally believe that Dontos was utterly sincere in his desire to help Sansa. Every meeting they had risked his neck as well. And as far as the money goes - well, what was he supposed to do, go back to the castle and resume being a jester? His life expectancy could have been clocked with an egg timer once Sansa was discovered missing. He would have needed some sort of stake to escape and set himself up as far from Westeros as possible. IMO that was not an unreasonable recompense for all the risks he had taken on LF's behalf in meeting with Sansa personally, and the money was probably LF's suggestion in the first place.

I don't believe for a second that he would have betrayed or tried to sell Sansa again. Now, was there a possibility he might have gotten drunk and run his mouth someday? Maybe ...but LF could have kept his own connection with it all secret from Dontos if he'd wanted to, and that would have eliminated any danger to himself, or anyone being able to track down Sansa via Dontos. Clearly LF simply intended for Sansa to see him as her one and only savior, and to do that he had to get Dontos out of the way and ascribe a mercenery purpose to him for Sansa.

For me, Dontos is another innocent pawn to lay at the doorstep of LF's ruthlessness.

That's an interesting observation about how the money was Littlefinger's suggestion, because in real life, according to my Dad, moles who were part of the CIA or ASIO, but for ideological reasons started spying for the KGB, would offer to work for the KGB for free and the KGB would then offer them money. They do this, apparently, because by paying the mole, the mole looses the purity of his cause (ie instead of spying for the KGB because he sincerely believes in International Communism he is doing it for the money) and if the mole just remained spying for the KGB out of the goodness of his heart, he would be able to stop passing information along if he felt the situation was too dangerous and that there was risk of exposure. Where as if he is paid, the moles handlers can guilt him into passing information along even when the situation is increasingly dangerous and he is in danger of getting caught. Then when the mole is inevitably caught, they can hang him out to dry, because the mole was supposedly in it just for the money.

So Petyr, by paying Dontos, was effectively following that pattern.