From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

[LadyoftheNorth72]

IMO - and sorry this is somewhat off topic - Robert never learned to feel any special loyalty or preference toward those who were blood relatives. He lost his parents at a relatively early age, had strained relations (at best) with his blood brothers, and seems to have had no other blood family that he chose to pursue close relations with. Instead he chose something of a surrogate family, in Jon Arryn as a father, Ned as a brother, various women rather than his wife, and illegitimate offspring rather than his heirs. His lack of ties to Joff seem to be more or less explained by Cersei, in Joff's reaction to him as a baby (and Robert's obvious dislike of Joff's character and personality as he grew up), but what about Myrcella and Tommen? They are both sweet and loving children, why did Robert display no interest or fatherly love toward them?

I have always wondered if Robert was actually not as ignorant of the childrens' true paternity as people assume he was. Jaime and Cersei were quite obviously not even remotely careful in how they carried out their affair. If others were able to look at Robert's bastards and then his three "children" and guess at the truth, then there is no reason why Robert could not do the same. I think he at least had his suspicions, but what could he really do about them? He had no proof, and without it, he could not very well order his wife and children killed without the entire realm turning on him as a monster. Even if he'd explained his reasoning beforehand, there just doesn't seem to be much concern in Westeros about whether the three children are his or not. Even since Stannis' letter there has been no public uprising or outcry from the population at large about being ruled by first one, then another product of incest, or Cersei's position as Regent. The only person who really cares apparently is Stannis. Even Renly did not seem concerned about the truth of the matter, when it would have put him several steps closer to a rightful claim to the throne.

I think it is very possible that poor Bob knew his kids were not his but felt powerless to do much about it, and in his characteristic way of ignoring things that are "icky" to deal with, he simply decided it didn't matter enough to start another war over - especially one that he might very well not win, going up against the Lannisters at the height of their power.

I do think it is interesting that we never get Sansa's reaction to Joff being a bastard and product of incest. Is it possible that they were really able to keep it THAT hushed up in the Red Keep, or prevent her specifically from finding out? And even if so, what about after she has escaped? You would think LF would have made sure she knew just how awful a fate she had been saved from when he managed to arrange the Tyrell marriage. What do you think Sansa's reaction would have been, and why is such a huge element left completely out of her POV? To me, it would have been irresistible to write of Sansa's horror at learning the truth, not only about who/what she was so close to marrying, but also her reaction to all the implications regarding Cersei and all her "advice" and "wisdom.". With Sansa's romantic and idealistic mindset, I would think her reaction would havr been at the extreme end of the spectrum of horror and disgust ...she has no worldliness that a more jaded person might use to say, "eh, so the queen did her brother, whatever."

[LadyoftheNorth72]

sorry, double post.

[Summerqueen]

I'm just curious, how old are you? and how is it you could remember as far back as a babe?

I mean most babies attention span is like 1 milli second.

My earliest remembrance in family matters is like about 4 or 5 and thats because either I did something stupid which got me in trouble or something really special like my dad renting a horse for me for a week as a birthday surprise.

Of course, I am not relying on my own memory. But I think I can trust my entire family on the matter.

[Grail King]

IMO - and sorry this is somewhat off topic - Robert never learned to feel any special loyalty or preference toward those who were blood relatives. He lost his parents at a relatively early age, had strained relations (at best) with his blood brothers, and seems to have had no other blood family that he chose to pursue close relations with. Instead he chose something of a surrogate family, in Jon Arryn as a father, Ned as a brother, various women rather than his wife, and illegitimate offspring rather than his heirs. His lack of ties to Joff seem to be more or less explained by Cersei, in Joff's reaction to him as a baby (and Robert's obvious dislike of Joff's character and personality as he grew up), but what about Myrcella and Tommen? They are both sweet and loving children, why did Robert display no interest or fatherly love toward them?

I have always wondered if Robert was actually not as ignorant of the childrens' true paternity as people assume he was. Jaime and Cersei were quite obviously not even remotely careful in how they carried out their affair. If others were able to look at Robert's bastards and then his three "children" and guess at the truth, then there is no reason why Robert could not do the same. I think he at least had his suspicions, but what could he really do about them? He had no proof, and without it, he could not very well order his wife and children killed without the entire realm turning on him as a monster. Even if he'd explained his reasoning beforehand, there just doesn't seem to be much concern in Westeros about whether the three children are his or not. Even since Stannis' letter there has been no public uprising or outcry from the population at large about being ruled by first one, then another product of incest, or Cersei's position as Regent. The only person who really cares apparently is Stannis. Even Renly did not seem concerned about the truth of the matter, when it would have put him several steps closer to a rightful claim to the throne.

I think it is very possible that poor Bob knew his kids were not his but felt powerless to do much about it, and in his characteristic way of ignoring things that are "icky" to deal with, he simply decided it didn't matter enough to start another war over - especially one that he might very well not win, going up against the Lannisters at the height of their power.

I do think it is interesting that we never get Sansa's reaction to Joff being a bastard and product of incest. Is it possible that they were really able to keep it THAT hushed up in the Red Keep, or prevent her specifically from finding out? And even if so, what about after she has escaped? You would think LF would have made sure she knew just how awful a fate she had been saved from when he managed to arrange the Tyrell marriage. What do you think Sansa's reaction would have been, and why is such a huge element left completely out of her POV? To me, it would have been irresistible to write of Sansa's horror at learning the truth, not only about who/what she was so close to marrying, but also her reaction to all the implications regarding Cersei and all her "advice" and "wisdom.". With Sansa's romantic and idealistic mindset, I would think her reaction would havr been at the extreme end of the spectrum of horror and disgust ...she has no worldliness that a more jaded person might use to say, "eh, so the queen did her brother, whatever."

I always felt deep down he knew his wife was having side dishes, he might not know it was because of him calling her Lyanna because of his stupor.

Ned didn't realize either until Sansa said that Joff was not like the old fat king and she give him beautiful blond children and it forced him to check that ponderous tome.

[Grail King]

Of course, I am not relying on my own memory. But I think I can trust my entire family on the matter.

OK, I thought me may be going down a path of regressive memory therapy or something. :)

[Duir]

(My computer is having a tantrum right now, so I'm posting this again and cross my fingers that it's not double posting)

Excellent analysis from everyone so far! I'm so impressed!

I also reacted to Sansa's dream were she calls out for everyone and every "hero" she knows, but for the only one who actually saved her. But we defenitely see Sansa mature and open her eyes to what the world really is like, gradually losing her innocence.

It is going to be very interesting to see her handle LF in the future, because he was the one who saved her and took her away from KL thus being her savior or hero. Then she finds out that he is very much capable of killing and above all getting away with it. So she will truly learn a lot of lessons by being around Petyr but I don't think she'll ever reach his level of immorality and backstabbing.

@Ladyofthenorth72 I totally agree with you! Why haven't LF told Sansa about the incest thing, it would be the ultimate thing for him to reveale!

and can someone please tell me where I can find the Sandor crying part, I remember reading it and feeling it but have only read all books once so I tend to mix things up a bit.

[brashcandy]

@Lady of the North - if Sansa had found out in AGOT then she would have been shocked and horrified. But after the cruel treatment she sustains at Joff's hands and her quick realisation of his monstrous nature, I don't think it would have mattered all that much to her. Part of Sansa's development has been learning to judge people not on their birthright but on their character. Nature isn't so important as nurture, it's not who you are, but what you do. So, whilst early Sansa might have looked down on Joff for his bastard nature if she had found out when she was still in love with him, later Sansa has learnt such issues as bastardy vs. trueborn pale in comparison to what a person is really like on the inside. Her role now as the bastard Alayne Stone obviously lends additional understanding to this realisation.

[brashcandy]

Duir, Sandor cries in Sansa's bedroom during the Blackwater battle, and later after he's in the duel with Beric, and still later on the banks of the Trident with Arya when he's confessing his sins.

[Duir]

Duir, Sandor cries in Sansa's bedroom during the Blackwater battle, and later after he's in the duel with Beric, and still later on the banks of the Trident with Arya when he's confessing his sins.

That's it. I will embark on a big re-read mission right about now since I seem to have forgot everything important.

Lot's of crying for someone so badass and not caring as he thinks himself to be. Also lots of knightly deeds and saving from someone who "hates" knights.

[Elba the Intoner]

But it is not just about Joff being a bastard, it is more so about his being a product of incest, which is considered even more unnatural and horrifying than being just a bastard. So, as for the questions as to why LF never told Sansa about Joff being a product of incest, it would seem to be something he would want to reveal to her on the one hand, to use as another example of how he saved her from this fate of being joined with this horrible unnatural being. Though Sansa's arrangement to marry Joff had been set aside and they both had been wed to someone else when she got out of King's Landing, I am sure LF would tell her that he had been arranging for her to get out of there and not marry Joff the whole time. That is effectively what Dontos has been telling her in fact.

However, on the other hand, it could actually have the opposite effect, in that it would make Sansa think back to when her father had wanted to get her out of Kings Landing and not marry Joff. (Even though we know that Ned didn't come to the full realization of Joff's parentage until after he told her about how he was arranging for her and Arya to get out of King's Landing, Sansa does not know when he realized it). It might make Sansa realize how right her father was and how she should have listened to him and the last thing LF wants is for Sansa to start thinking about and idealizing her Dad all over again. He never wants the shadow of Ned, most especially him of all men as he is the one who got Cat's love, hanging over his relationship with Sansa and interfering with image he is creating that he is the only one who knows what's best for Sansa and the only one she can depend on.

[brashcandy]

Great points, Elba. If LF does end up revealing that Joff was Jaime's and Cersei's child it could trigger Sansa's memory about how her father found out, and certainly it would give her a greater understanding of just why her father went against the crown. However, we could have an opposite effect to the one you thought of too: this could cause her to depend on LF even more and be more determined to reclaim Winterfell and go against the Lannisters. Realising the depths of Cersei's treachery could really be the thing that spurs Sansa to Queenship.

[childofsummer]

I do think that Sansa will lose her innocence; she's gradually losing it now, between the wedding night with nekkid Tyrion, Ser Dontos' brutal death, Littlefinger seducing her and Aunt Lysa trying to kill her, etc. I hope that she will manage to keep some of her idealism and compassion/empathy; without those three qualities, she is no longer Sansa.

I doubt that Sandor will show up to free Sansa from LF. I think Sansa will leave LF/the Vale; either to save SweetRobin or save herself; or as Ser Shadrich's captive to be taken back to Cersei to answer for Joffrey's death. (Shadrich, who wants to find Sansa and haul her back for a reward, is now working for Littlefinger, if I'm not mistaken; eventually he's going to figure out who "Alayne" really is) But it's very possible that Sansa will meet up with Sandor while she's on the run, or he'll save her from Cersei/Cersei's agents....

Maybe I used the wrong word. I was thinking of innocence as more of a tendency to believe that people can be good and to assume that they will make good choices or have acted from good intentions, rather than as a naive assumption that the world is a benevolent place and no harm will ever come to her. I see idealism as a striving toward a utopian ideal, thus distinct from innocence. I agree that she now must acknowledge that people will choose to do bad things, and that she is not insulated from them by knights, true, unacknowledged, or otherwise. ^_^

[brashcandy]

That's it. I will embark on a big re-read mission right about now since I seem to have forgot everything important.

Lot's of crying for someone so badass and not caring as he thinks himself to be. Also lots of knightly deeds and saving from someone who "hates" knights.

Shipper moment -

Yup. Which is why he's Sansa's perfect man: A bad-ass warrior in touch with his sensitive side. Like Aemon Dragonknight

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

That's it. I will embark on a big re-read mission right about now since I seem to have forgot everything important.

Lot's of crying for someone so badass and not caring as he thinks himself to be. Also lots of knightly deeds and saving from someone who "hates" knights.

those are "Man Tears"

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Great points, Elba. If LF does end up revealing that Joff was Jaime's and Cersei's child it could trigger Sansa's memory about how her father found out, and certainly it would give her a greater understanding of just why her father went against the crown. However, we could have an opposite effect to the one you thought of too: this could cause her to depend on LF even more and be more determined to reclaim Winterfell and go against the Lannisters. Realising the depths of Cersei's treachery could really be the thing that spurs Sansa to Queenship.

This is really the part that I think would shock Sansa even now, when she knows a lot about what kind of person Cersei is. The idea that the queen she once idolized not only committed regular adultery, but with her own brother, and then passed off the results of the adultery as the king's children ...I think it would shock her to her core at first, and then once she had assimilated it in her mind, it would give her more wisdom and more reason to be involved in any scheme of LF'S that would finally bring Cersei down for good.

As far as taking credit for rescuing her from the Joffrey marriage, IIRC LF was the one who went to the Tyrells to arrange the marriage between Joff and Marg? Not sure whether this would be a plus or a minus in Sansa's mind though, it would depend on how she is feeling about Marg (still as a pseudo-sister, or as one of her betrayers).

[Caro99]

Raksha, you pointed a really good theory as to why baby joff would’ve disliked being hugged by robert. If he could sense in a way cersei’s dislike of robert, then it is possible. But he sort of grew out of it later on since we see him wanting the fatherly approval he had lacked all his life, example; dagger/bran accident. Maybe cersei would’ve liked robert better if he had come to love her kids though.

I don’t think that robert ever suspected that joff and his siblings weren’t his. He wasn’t that interested in them yes, but imo if he had learned the truth then he would’ve killed the whole lot of them in a mad rage. It might be that the matter never occurred to him since he was sort of disappointed that his kids looked so much like his wife’s family. Both in looks and character. It is sort of ironic that the man who killed the mad king ended up giving birth to the future mad king. Even robert did notice this, since he tells ned he is worried as to how joff has turned out. This makes me wonder that if he knew that joff was evil, how could he have wanted to marry his best friend’s daughter to him..?

But Morte also mentions a very interesting analysis on robert...

Brash- Thanks for your reply, I also enjoy your posts! They’re funny and they also point out clever hints. By the way, I never thought about the joff/love is poison comparison, but it may very well be possible. Poor cersei, she would go even more crazy if she knew those words were foreshadowing her precious son’s life. & about your reaction to sandor holding sansa’s hand, yes I bet he didn’t like her wanting to pull free in this particular moment so he pointed out a time when she was glad to have him near. And about the sword he pointed at her, maybe he was unsure as to how to react with this new sansa who answers back, so he tried to get her to be scared at him again with the blade, but that didn’t happen…

Elba, yes maybe sansa never even learned about stannis letter with the incest bit. She may have heard women talking about it by the well or when the riot crowd was screaming brotherfucker, but at that moment I’m sure sansa wasn’t really thinking, “why are they crying out that?”. But of course, sansa hates cersei so she wouldn’t be that surprised to find out about it.

and when you mentioned something as sandor as a butcher, it reminded me that Gatehouse ami’s mother tells someone in jaime’s hearing in AFFC that butchers are more noble (or something like this, they’re discussing saltpans) so if sandor thinks himself as a butcher then we have yet another reason why he was never at saltpans himself to burn the town down. Beasts did that, and he is sandor now, not the hound. And totally agree with sansa remembering ned not wanting her to marry joff for reasons he would one day tell her, and then being reminiscent of her father’s goodness.

Maybe LF hasn’t said anything about the incest cause he may assume sansa knows about it, or the other reasons you all posted, or maybe he is waiting for some special moment t present itself so he can tell her..? don’t really know…

[pjsolomo]

Quote

The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces. Everywhere she turned she saw faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks.

Reguarding this dream of Sansa's which "everyone knows are prophetic", I thought the gods were trying to reach her and warn her that "Winter is Coming". I also wondered especially at the weasels eating her belly if it was in reference to the Red Wedding. I just thought it wouldn't be a dream of the past it has to be future or a possible future.

[brashcandy]

Quote

The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces. Everywhere she turned she saw faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks.

Reguarding this dream of Sansa's which "everyone knows are prophetic", I thought the gods were trying to reach her and warn her that "Winter is Coming". I also wondered especially at the weasels eating her belly if it was in reference to the Red Wedding. I just thought it wouldn't be a dream of the past it has to be future or a possible future.

I'm suddenly drawing a blank on the Red Wedding :) Care to clarify more?

[Thrice the Hound]

I have always wondered if Robert was actually not as ignorant of the childrens' true paternity as people assume he was. Jaime and Cersei were quite obviously not even remotely careful in how they carried out their affair. If others were able to look at Robert's bastards and then his three "children" and guess at the truth, then there is no reason why Robert could not do the same. I think he at least had his suspicions, but what could he really do about them? He had no proof, and without it, he could not very well order his wife and children killed without the entire realm turning on him as a monster. Even if he'd explained his reasoning beforehand, there just doesn't seem to be much concern in Westeros about whether the three children are his or not. Even since Stannis' letter there has been no public uprising or outcry from the population at large about being ruled by first one, then another product of incest, or Cersei's position as Regent. The only person who really cares apparently is Stannis. Even Renly did not seem concerned about the truth of the matter, when it would have put him several steps closer to a rightful claim to the throne.

I think it is very possible that poor Bob knew his kids were not his but felt powerless to do much about it, and in his characteristic way of ignoring things that are "icky" to deal with, he simply decided it didn't matter enough to start another war over - especially one that he might very well not win, going up against the Lannisters at the height of their power.

I do think it is interesting that we never get Sansa's reaction to Joff being a bastard and product of incest. Is it possible that they were really able to keep it THAT hushed up in the Red Keep, or prevent her specifically from finding out? And even if so, what about after she has escaped? You would think LF would have made sure she knew just how awful a fate she had been saved from when he managed to arrange the Tyrell marriage. What do you think Sansa's reaction would have been, and why is such a huge element left completely out of her POV? To me, it would have been irresistible to write of Sansa's horror at learning the truth, not only about who/what she was so close to marrying, but also her reaction to all the implications regarding Cersei and all her "advice" and "wisdom.". With Sansa's romantic and idealistic mindset, I would think her reaction would havr been at the extreme end of the spectrum of horror and disgust ...she has no worldliness that a more jaded person might use to say, "eh, so the queen did her brother, whatever."

That would certainly explain why Robert thought it was a good game to invite whores into his and Cersei's marriage bed. It didn't make sense that he would think it would be okay to humilate Cersei like that. This way he can justify it in his own mind as the worst kind of payback that does not involve him having to execute his wife and her children or send them into exile.

Perhaps its the very obvious lack of information in her POV that is the key to this? Sansa's POV could be missing this because she was still too busy trying to make light of a pretty gross and scary situation? Perhaps denial was the only weapon she could use in the circumstance? That would be a pretty earth shattering revelation to find out that your betrothed is a product of incest on top of the fact he just murdered your Father for exposing it as truth... not exactly fairytale stuff especially not when you are still stuck marrying the little demon.

[bgona]

Quote

The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces. Everywhere she turned she saw faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks.

Reguarding this dream of Sansa's which "everyone knows are prophetic", I thought the gods were trying to reach her and warn her that "Winter is Coming". I also wondered especially at the weasels eating her belly if it was in reference to the Red Wedding. I just thought it wouldn't be a dream of the past it has to be future or a possible future.

I aslo believe that the dreams has a meaning. I don´t know if it is of something that it is going to happen in the future.

Maybe it is just it have being said of a PSTD.