From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

[Elba the Intoner]

OK. this thread is moving fast so I just want to go back to some comments made just before this next chapter was posted.

Regarding how Sandor's face was "transformed" when he was fighting off the peasants in the mob, I took this too as a positive change. In fact, transformed to me means the opposite of what it normally looks like, and we know that it normally looks ugly and frightening. I think Sansa might have thought it looked beautiful just then.

Also, it seems to me that Sansa has been looking at Sandor's face quite a lot. There's the mob scene where she notes his face is transformed, and on the rooftop she does look at his face closely, yet again. Sandor is so defensive that he thinks every time she is not looking at him it's because she hates it but that's not the case at all.

Another big thing in that chapter is Dontos talking about how he can learn so much more as a fool than he ever did as a knight, and that Sansa should let people think that she's dumb. This is big in Shakespeare, the fool always is the wisest of men. To me it's an obvious clue that Sansa is a very smart girl and it just bugs me that so many people on these boards think she is dumb, even after the fourth book. Did they not read these scenes at all? Or are they just blinded by the impression they got of her in the first book not to realize that she is changing drastically?

In the next chapter that Brash just posted, we see again the hints at Sansa's intelligence and how Joff and Cersei are the stupid ones. I loved the line about how when Joff calls her over to kiss his sword Sansa thinks he never seemed more like a little boy. It's so true!

And I never made the connection before that Sansa says prayers that seem to get answered too, just like Arya. That does give me a lot of hope for her character, and yes also fear about what role Ilyn Payne will come to play as that also seems to be some kind of foreshadowing there.

[Fire Eater]

@Raksha, yeah, I don't understand why Cersei cannot find it in herself to feel some sympathy for Sansa. It's like she sees an innocent spirit and just wants to crush it before it can fly. I would argue that in comparison, this isn't Sandor's objective. I think there's a part of him that is genuinely afraid for Sansa, while Cersei seems to delight in telling her all the sordid unpleasantries of being a woman and being helpless in the face of rampaging soldiers.

At least now we know where Joffrey gets his sadistic streak from. Cersei has shown herself to be incapable of compassion or empathy. I think seeing the boy she dreamed of marrying behead her father was for Sansa what Tywin forcing Tyrion to watch Tysha be raped by the men of the garrison was for Tyrion, she grew up in that moment, her experience making her learn the hard lessons of the world.

I hadn't noticed it, but Aemon the Dragonknight appears as frequently as Florian. Also I found the reference to Symeon Star-Eyes interesting as it provides a connection to Brienne. Symeon was blind and replaced his eyes with Sapphires and of course Jaime made the reference to sapphires in connection to Brienne. Also Brienne is metephorically blind in regards to Jaime. ;)

Good theory, Brienne's blue eyes may be in reference to the Symeon's sapphire eyes, and in reference to the hellhounds fighting, Brienne slew a man wearing the Hound's helm, or could be a reference to fight between the Hound and UnGregor.

[Fragile Bird]

I'd like to note one of those nice GRRM touches that connect SanSan. Note that at the start of the previous chapter when Sansa meets Dontos, he asks if she's been crying. She lies and says it's just the smoke, but really she's been crying for even trivial matters. The siege of KL has just started.

At the end of the siege (essentially) it's Sandor crying, and it's just the first of three moments of tears for him. And not for trivial matters. How many days have passed between the two moments, 3 or 4, or a week at most? No one cries with either of them, they do their crying by themselves. A subtle sharing of loneliness.

And about that sword kissing scene. Why in heaven's name would Joffrey ask the traitor's daughter, the one he humiliates in front of the whole court, who he threatens, and beats, and strips naked, to kiss his sword? For the good luck she'll bring him? I don't see Joffrey having a fine sense of irony, asking Sansa to kiss the sword to make killing the people her father would have supported even sweeter.

Of course, swords are weapons of war, and references to male anatomy. So is Joffrey humiliating Sansa again by saying, here, kiss my dick? And the next time you kiss it you'll kiss blood (my uncle's, he says, but does he really mean hers, after he rapes her in marriage?). I just saw the whole scene from an ugly point of view. Or maybe it's just as Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Raksha the Demon]

Who else would Joffrey have asked to kiss his sword? His mother? Joffrey is a sadistic twerp, but I think he is sexually attracted by Sansa; and wants to impress her, cow her, make a production out of being in control of her. On some level, Joffrey knows that Sansa's talk of being his loyal and loving future wife is false. I think he wants to break her, make her acknowledge that she belongs to him...Even after Joff is betrothed to Margaery, he still threatens to Sansa with eventual rape, if I remember right.

[Fragile Bird]

Who else would Joffrey have asked to kiss his sword? His mother? Joffrey is a sadistic twerp, but I think he is sexually attracted by Sansa; and wants to impress her, cow her, make a production out of being in control of her. On some level, Joffrey knows that Sansa's talk of being his loyal and loving future wife is false. I think he wants to break her, make her acknowledge that she belongs to him...Even after Joff is betrothed to Margaery, he still threatens to Sansa with eventual rape, if I remember right.

Oh yes, even Dontos tells her it doesn't matter that she's been released from her obligation to marry Joff, he'll still have her if he wants her. And at her wedding to Tyrion he tells her to expect him.

But why would anyone have to kiss his sword? Has any knight in any book asked their wife or lover (or mom) to kiss their sword? Hell no. Sadistic twerp he is indeed, and he certainly has constantly abused Sansa for quite a long time. Methinks the cigar is not in fact a cigar in this case!

[Morte]

@Raksha, yeah, I don't understand why Cersei cannot find it in herself to feel some sympathy for Sansa. It's like she sees an innocent spirit and just wants to crush it before it can fly. I would argue that in comparison, this isn't Sandor's objective. I think there's a part of him that is genuinely afraid for Sansa, while Cersei seems to delight in telling her all the sordid unpleasantries of being a woman and being helpless in the face of rampaging soldiers.

I think Cersei is quite blind in regard to Sansa, just as she is regarding Joff and what a monster he truely is: She doesn't see how Sansa has evolved, and thrus still tries to break the child believing in fairy tales; also this "imagined Sansa" is annoying for Cersei (maybe reminding her of herself, when she was herself a child believing in knights?), so she reacts accordingly.

While it is very sad for Sansa, it's interesting for the reader (in regard to Cersei's character and her focus on her son), as even Tyrion, who did spend much less time with Sansa and doesn't concerns himself with her, knows that she as changed and isn't the naive child anymore.

Edit: I'm sorry I'm very slow in responding at the moment, but life is a little stressfull at the moment. I still try to at least keep track, reading all your great postings. :)

[Thrice the Hound]

Quote

The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces. Everywhere she turned she saw faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks.

Reguarding this dream of Sansa's which "everyone knows are prophetic", I thought the gods were trying to reach her and warn her that "Winter is Coming". I also wondered especially at the weasels eating her belly if it was in reference to the Red Wedding. I just thought it wouldn't be a dream of the past it has to be future or a possible future.

After this moonblood scene, does Sansa every mention her moonblood again anywhere in the books?

ANYWAY

Sansas dream could be... Dany @ the fighting pits in Dance PG 689

1.The mob surged around her, shrieking, a maddened beast with a thousand faces twisted into monstrous inhuman masks (She called for all her he million heros but none came.)

Brazen Beasts?

2. Women swarmed over her like weasels, pinching her legs and kicking her in the belly.

stolen from wikki

"Lysense coins are oval in shape and have a naked woman stamped on them.^[9], See also Currency.

Lys makes a red wine and a white wine.^[10] fine tapestries ^[11] and the source of the lethal poison, Tears of Lys."

"The tears of Lys is a rare and expensive poison. It is clear, sweet as water and leaves no trace.^[1] It is dissolved into liquids. The effects of the poison cause a sickness in the bowels and belly, eating away at them.^[2] According to semi-canon sources it is created by the alchemists from Lys.^[3]"

Everyone seems to be dropping dead of Pale Mare.

Skahaz (the leader of the Brazen beasts) later suspects that Dany's new husband tried to poison her at the arena. Belwas was the one that got poisioned (2).

I dont know about the pinching legs.

3. someone hit her in the face and she felt her teeth shatter.

Theon maybe? He is escaping with Jeyne Poole just before Danys chapter? It is a stretch. I really don't know.

4. Then she saw the bright glimmer of steel. The knife plunged into her belly and tore and tore and tore, until there was nothing left of her down there butt shiny wet ribbons. (When she woke she was sore and achy like she had not slept at all. When she noticed her sticky legs and saw the blood all that she could think of was her dream. She squirmed away in horror kicking at the sheets and falling of the bed, breathing raggedly, naked, bloody and afraid.)

Tyrion is in the arena at the same time.

Dany watched woman get gored by a boar as well. (4) Was Sansa dreaming a green dream about this woman?

"The boar charged, the blade flashed silver in the sun" <snip> "a tusk ripped her left leg open from knee to crotch" "Before she had gone two feet the boar was on her once again"

Dany turned her face away. "The boar buried his snout in Barsena's belly and began rooting out her entrails"

????????????? What do you think?

[1234567]

She thinks about crying off from going to Joff's wedding breakfast by saying she has had her Moon's Blood.

However the timescale seems to be rapidly shortening in terms of chapters from this point in. I'm not sure if it's much more than two-three months between this chapter and Joff's death. Or is it longer? When did Myrcella leave and when did Lollys have the baby? That should give us a good idea of how much time is going to pass in the next few chapters.

[The Storm Queen]

I have followed this re-read since it started and wanted to come out now and give you kudos for the brillant and detailed work that makes me love me favourite Sansa even more :-)

Concerning the moon blood scene. To me it was one of the strongest scenes of the book. I think that 99,9 % of the books´ content can have the same impact on both genders but this one seems to be a scene which affects female readers to a greater extent.

I really felt for Sansa here because she should have made this experience in a friendly environment with people she loves and trusts and who support her in her transition from child to woman. Instead she has this threat of even more sexual violence over her head the whole time and it gets even more intense when she is "flowered" (UGH, hate that word and its implications). Martin established a really strong connex between sex and violence in these chapters with the riot in KL, Sansa´s dream and the kissing of Joff´s sword. This theme has continued in Sansa´s arc until Dance and I wonder if it is going to be her breaking point someday (for example LF molesting her even more leading to his murder by Sansa). I suppose that it also might make her appreciating the autonomy of her body even more and lead her to the path of the unmarried virgin queen (which was already discussed here)

Few words about Cersei: She reminds me of Brecht´s Mother Courage here. She also has suffered abuse but instead of being sympathetic towards other victims she has become indifferent and cold. Tywin´s terrible education and "Lannister superiority ideas" might have strengthened those resigned way of dealing with things...

[Thrice the Hound]

She thinks about crying off from going to Joff's wedding breakfast by saying she has had her Moon's Blood.

However the timescale seems to be rapidly shortening in terms of chapters from this point in. I'm not sure if it's much more than two-three months between this chapter and Joff's death. Or is it longer? When did Myrcella leave and when did Lollys have the baby? That should give us a good idea of how much time is going to pass in the next few chapters.

You know a lot of things :) Why was Sansa naked in bed the night of her moonblood? Is that strange or is this normal for her?

[1234567]

You know a lot of things :) Why was Sansa naked in bed the night of her moonblood? Is that strange or is this normal for her?

Good point. When Sandor lifts her out of bed in AGOT she is wearing a sleeping shift. But then Tyrion (who normally sleeps naked according to himself) orders her to wear one in ASOS. Curious.

[brashcandy]

Rapsie, Errant Bard's timeline should be useful in figuring out how much time has passed.

Good point. When Sandor lifts her out of bed in AGOT she is wearing a sleeping shift. But then Tyrion (who normally sleeps naked according to himself) orders her to wear one in ASOS. Curious.

This was strange. I don't know if Martin wanted to add an extra sense of vulnerability from the nakedness, or heighten the sense of the sexual threat that her period represents...

[1234567]

Rapsie, Errant Bard's timeline should be useful in figuring out how much time has passed.

That's why I'm puzzled as there appears to only be 7 months between the riot and Lollys giving birth.

This was strange. I don't know if Martin wanted to add an extra sense of vulnerability from the nakedness, or heighten the sense of the sexual threat that her period represents...

A mistake on GRRM's part perhaps?

[brashcandy]

I have followed this re-read since it started and wanted to come out now and give you kudos for the brillant and detailed work that makes me love me favourite Sansa even more :-)

Concerning the moon blood scene. To me it was one of the strongest scenes of the book. I think that 99,9 % of the books´ content can have the same impact on both genders but this one seems to be a scene which affects female readers to a greater extent.

I really felt for Sansa here because she should have made this experience in a friendly environment with people she loves and trusts and who support her in her transition from child to woman. Instead she has this threat of even more sexual violence over her head the whole time and it gets even more intense when she is "flowered" (UGH, hate that word and its implications). Martin established a really strong connex between sex and violence in these chapters with the riot in KL, Sansa´s dream and the kissing of Joff´s sword. This theme has continued in Sansa´s arc until Dance and I wonder if it is going to be her breaking point someday (for example LF molesting her even more leading to his murder by Sansa). I suppose that it also might make her appreciating the autonomy of her body even more and lead her to the path of the unmarried virgin queen (which was already discussed here)

Few words about Cersei: She reminds me of Brecht´s Mother Courage here. She also has suffered abuse but instead of being sympathetic towards other victims she has become indifferent and cold. Tywin´s terrible education and "Lannister superiority ideas" might have strengthened those resigned way of dealing with things...

Thanks Dornish Sand Snake :)

Your point about the connection between sex and violence, particularly in Sansa's arc is very true. I do think Martin is consciously using swords as phallic symbols at times, especially when it comes to Sandor and in this chapter with having to kiss Joff's sword. With Joffrey, sex is all about domination and humiliation. He is concerned with publicly shaming Sansa, and showing that he has mastery over her. When we contrast this with the previous chapter where she meets up with Sandor, the setting is completely different. In fact, her meetings with Sandor are always private. I would argue that he tries to master her as well, not in the same sadistic sense as Joffrey by no means, but through being harsh, rough and cynical. Sandor's anger as well is not directed at her particularly, but the world in general. He pulls out his sword in that chapter and places it under her neck, and what's curious is that Sansa has no reaction of any real fear or danger. She seems to stand up to him, and in the end he resheaths the sword. So there's the suggestion that she won that showdown and the unspoken sexual threat that Sandor represents.

[Thrice the Hound]

Good point. When Sandor lifts her out of bed in AGOT she is wearing a sleeping shift. But then Tyrion (who normally sleeps naked according to himself) orders her to wear one in ASOS. Curious.

I am not so much courious as I had the hell scared out of me for a moment while trying to figure out the significance of the Dany stuff (which makes the msot sense to me) namely Broken teeth and pinching legs (and maybe the knife too) and I want you guys to debunk this before I cry myself to sleep tonight.

I have been left wondering after reading that nightmare sequence AGAIN if it is possible that Sansa was attacked that night while she was dreaming?

:crying: I mean raped while she was dreaming. (I know, please hear me out)

Could this be another case of the unreliable narrator again?

I thought it was strange that she fell out of bed naked for a start the fear and thinking about her dream and the fear because for a while there she was convinced too that her dream was the cause of all her blood. But it just gets worse as you read on.

The waking up "achy and sore like she hadn't slept at all" is not "twisting and pinching" like she was saying in the Godswood with Dontos when literally describing menstrual cramping. She doesn't mention her tummy again. Quickly we are given the idea it is her moon blood and she panics all over again.

There is also speech in this dream e.g. "No Don't" I haven't seen that before, she is talking out loud. I can’t say after reading all of her flashbacks or other dream sequences that speech has ever appeard like this, it's always a narrators 'voice' whenever there is speech in your head or in a dream and it is italicised why not this time?... Is it because she was talking out loud? (please tell me I am wrong)

My first interpretation of the dream into a prophecy about Dany made me wonder then about the prolouge in Dance about the warging and what happens if you warg into another person, it isn’t pretty.

Magic is really high at this stage of the game. The wild fire is more potent than usual and we have Cat coming back to life and Dondarrion... I wondered if Sansa was attacked in her bed and during the process of crying out for all her hero’s including Florian if she warged Sandor?

Which then leads me then to think about what Sandor said to her in the bedroom scene about "not letting anyone hurt you again I'd kill them" (I am not saying he attacked her but maybe he stopped it?) We don’t see Sandor again until the bedroom and this time he is in the bed (afraid, bloody and the rest)… he is around somewhere but they don’t get to speak alone and by the Bedroom scene he is in a rush to get her out of KL. Couple that with his outburst at Arya and all the stuff that the Elder brother says about Sandor being a tortured man later and it leaves me feeling cold. That he knows something that we didn't see because Sansa is in denial just like with the unkiss?

What if the moonwine for Marg was for Sansa?

There is another alternative, that she was stabbed to death in her bed and came back to life? (I am more comfortable with this but it's harder to believe) What if Sansa is now reanimated and we just don’t know about it yet? We know that the red priests have the power to heal and reanimate. What if Sansa has that power also? Jon has a dream in the chapter before about the wolves and their being only 5, a lot of people assume this is Robb… what if it was Sansa that is the missing wolf?

Please don't kill me over this I think they are all really good points. As yuck as they are.

[brashcandy]

That's why I'm puzzled as there appears to only be 7 months between the riot and Lollys giving birth.

Hmm ok. Well we know how crazy GRRM's timeline can be :)

A mistake on GRRM's part perhaps?

Perhaps. It always stood out to me since I didn't think sleeping naked would be Sansa's style somehow, but that's neither here nor there.

[brashcandy]

@Thrice the Hound - those were some interesting points you made, no killing necessary :) I do personally think that in this case a dream was a dream, and no real foreshadowing of anything to do with Dany's arc, not to mention that by the time Marg is asking for the moontea Sansa has been long gone from KL. But there will be time for lots more speculation when we get to the chapter when Sandor is in her room, so keep your thoughts ready.

[Thrice the Hound]

Like I said earlier, if you go through the ACOK Sansa 4 Chapter and compare it to the Tyrion one at the river front and the bedroom scene everything is running into one thing. In a few instances of the riot flash backs she is pulling things from other places into her recollection. This is the unkiss for example;

1. He was growing weepy, the wine did that to him “Give your Florian a little kiss now. A kiss for luck.” He swayed toward her. Sansa dodged the wet groping lips, kissed him lightly on an unshaven cheek and bid him goodnight. It took all her strength not to weep. She had been weeping too much of late. It was unseemly, she knew, but she could not seem to help herself; the tears would come, sometimes over a trifle and nothing she did could hold them back.
   
2. She couldn't sing for him now, here, with the sky aswirl with fire and men dying in their hundreds and thousands. "I cant" she said "Let me go, Your scaring me." "Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me."He yanked her closer and she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes wanting it to be over but nothing happened.
   

There seems to meanings within meanings Like with the unseemly crying, remember the parrapett "it was only polite to look him in the face a lady always remembers her courtesies"

extra bit - Sorry, did Pycell ever say when Margery asked for the tea? Or is it he only says it well after she is gone?

ANYWAY - I am going to sleep better tonight regarless :D

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Good point. When Sandor lifts her out of bed in AGOT she is wearing a sleeping shift. But then Tyrion (who normally sleeps naked according to himself) orders her to wear one in ASOS. Curious.

Well at the time he was also sleeping in the nude and as it is a marriage bed, it might have been expected of her. Tyrion initially ordered her to undress and as we haven't been privvy to the nights leading up to this one, we don't know if he continued to have her in the nude. Obviously, he changed his mind.

[bgona]

Thrice I don´t think that the nightmare was something prophetic with Daenerys, if it is something profetic will be about Sansa (as her death without The Hound near her).

Also I don´t believe that she had been assault neither rape. And the moontea of Maergerys it is asked later on.

Anyway I like to read your ideas, they seem to me like crazy ideas that makes smile and that probably can be right. I don´t believe that they are rights, but I don´t deny that they can be.