From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

[bgona]

Lots of interesting points here.

1 - This reminds me that there's a scene where Sansa thinks she could kiss Dontos - blotchy cheeks, broken veins and all. I forget exactly when this is but she's not against kissing faces she finds unattractive. (It's also the first time, I think, that she considers giving a man a kiss as a reward, a kiss she knows he wants, btw.)

2 - The thing that's strange is, to have caught her that fast, he would have had to have been literally a step or two away. How did she not see him?

3 - She can look but he doesn't like it when she doesn't just accept what he's telling her without question. He's probably used to getting his way via intimidation and, when that doesn't work, and he's looking like the bad guy in a way he doesn't like, he tells her to stop looking and go away. Real mature, Sandor.

4 - I always assumed it was in a terrifyingly joyous way. Granted, these were starving peasants and not trained knights, but he was also defending his little bird so . . . double thrill.

5 - Their solo encounters are mainly at night. It just adds to his general menacing aura. If she ran into him out in the gardens or something, it wouldn't have the same dangerous vibe.

6 - This is really sad. :( I'd never thought about what he was doing up there pre-Sansa's arrival.

7 - I don't have my book handy but what's the next scene Sansa has with Sandor after getting her period? Just wondering if he acts differently, no doubt having heard she flowered.

2- With the ashes it was darker, even there were stars and a moon growing. You got that he was near her, or at least, he moved really fast to grab her before she could fall.

[bgona]

I don't have anything to add about the topic really, this post is actually a well wish.

Bgona I know your pain, I had a similar problem once when my lower back failed on me and left me unable to lift my arms or turn anything connected to my spine for several weeks. I couldn't even reach my arms out enough to type on a keyboard so I did the next best thing and drafted a buddy to be my typer while I dictated to him. I had to buy the guy a lot of beer as payment, but it at least kept me from going insane with pent up thoughts. Or rather any more insane than I already am :D

Jajajajaja I can´t figure out the face of my husband if I hire somebody to type in English!!! And at night!!!

Thanks to all, slowly, I´m getting better.

[Solaris]

I have been left wondering after reading that nightmare sequence AGAIN if it is possible that Sansa was attacked that night while she was dreaming?

:crying: I mean raped while she was dreaming. (I know, please hear me out)

Could this be another case of the unreliable narrator again?

I thought it was strange that she fell out of bed naked for a start the fear and thinking about her dream and the fear because for a while there she was convinced too that her dream was the cause of all her blood. But it just gets worse as you read on.

The waking up "achy and sore like she hadn't slept at all" is not "twisting and pinching" like she was saying in the Godswood with Dontos when literally describing menstrual cramping. She doesn't mention her tummy again. Quickly we are given the idea it is her moon blood and she panics all over again.

There is also speech in this dream e.g. "No Don't" I haven't seen that before, she is talking out loud. I can’t say after reading all of her flashbacks or other dream sequences that speech has ever appeard like this, it's always a narrators 'voice' whenever there is speech in your head or in a dream and it is italicised why not this time?... Is it because she was talking out loud? (please tell me I am wrong)

Which then leads me then to think about what Sandor said to her in the bedroom scene about "not letting anyone hurt you again I'd kill them" (I am not saying he attacked her but maybe he stopped it?) We don’t see Sandor again until the bedroom and this time he is in the bed (afraid, bloody and the rest)… he is around somewhere but they don’t get to speak alone and by the Bedroom scene he is in a rush to get her out of KL. Couple that with his outburst at Arya and all the stuff that the Elder brother says about Sandor being a tortured man later and it leaves me feeling cold. That he knows something that we didn't see because Sansa is in denial just like with the unkiss?

What if the moonwine for Marg was for Sansa?

Please don't kill me over this I think they are all really good points. As yuck as they are.

Good point. I agree with Brash, I don't think it is Sansa's 'style' to sleep naked althought it could simply be a case of GRRM creating compelling imagery to make her even more vulnerable to the reader than usual (similar to what we saw when Joff had her stripped and beaten).

Keeping everying within the context of the moonblood scene we can examine the ramifications of these details (Joffrey! :ack: and his 'planting' is the obvious one) Her being stark nekkid while she is running around the room hysterically ripping her linnen to shreds and setting it on fire is likely a way GRRM is saying "she is utterly exposed" in the flesh as much as the evidence is "exposing her" because she cannot hide/destroy it. IMO. I could be wrong and her shift is missing because it was taken off her and removed from the room (but that is pure speculation when there is no evidence to suggest she wore one to bed in the first place).

You have a point and you referenced aDwD prologue, when warging goes wrong pain is involved but I don't recall reference to the physical body feeling that pain or the manifestation of a kind of 'stigmata' (for lack of a better word) when experiencing death in another body - we saw madness with Varamyr but he is already injured when his reflection begins.

I will have a dig through the Bran chapters and see if he ever wakes up feeling NQR after a bad warging experience (you have tickled my interest here :) ) You have a point with her possibly warging into someone/something in that dream (I don't think it is over to Dany but I see why you went there) as I have pointed out before with Sansa's lack of a wolf we wouldn't necessarily identify it is a warg dream because if she is warging people all about Westeros it will not be obvious as animals are to the reader or her.

When Varamyr wargs Thistle he refers to her body as hers/ours or their (tounge) because he is aware of what he is doing. Sansa would only know that body as herself and have zero control over it but feel everything in the dream through that persons senses (just like Varamyr did when the eagle caught fire), liken it to astral hitchhiking, the injuries shouldn't transfer (I don't believe). It would be interesting to see if later on something comes up where someone/something was found with it's guts haning out all over the place "with most of down below being gone".

I can also see why you would suspect an actual assult. I can't debunk that for you to make you feel better (yet :lol: ) upon quick reference to the other dream//flashback sequences in this chapter and some others I grudgingly agree that you have a point in respect to speech in this dream. I will dredge through this when I have the time and check more books as well as unrelated arcs to see how GRRM textually constructs these sequences. If this is a singular occurence it may warrant further crackpottery. :lol:

I do not recall Pycell telling Cersei that "Margery asked for the moonwine 2 days ago 2 weeks ago". I don't recall him actually stating WHEN the drug was requested by Margery. As pointed out earlier, the problem you will run into is with the lackadaisical nature of the timelines. I will check this myself but I also suggest that what be revised is where Margery was between the time of Sansa's first flowering and her second one that Rapsie (?) suggested and compared against the meeting with the Queen of Thorns and all those times Sansa was with Margery privately between those two flowerings for clarification.

There has been much speculation over who that moonwine was for and it seemed to be a redherring to me designed to drop Cersei right in it but perhaps you have stumbled onto something as disturbing as it is.

[brashcandy]

:) I love a good crackpot, and whilst this is too crackpot for me to get behind, I will add some fuel to the fire just for fun. Sansa talks about her tummy being upset when she's on the boat with LF heading to the fingers. Seasickness or something else? :)

[Solaris]

:) I love a good crackpot, and whilst this is too crackpot for me to get behind, I will add some fuel to the fire just for fun. Sansa talks about her tummy being upset when she's on the boat with LF heading to the fingers. Seasickness or something else? :)

:) probably not? :lol: or

She thinks about crying off from going to Joff's wedding breakfast by saying she has had her Moon's Blood.

However the timescale seems to be rapidly shortening in terms of chapters from this point in. I'm not sure if it's much more than two-three months between this chapter and Joff's death. Or is it longer? When did Myrcella leave and when did Lollys have the baby? That should give us a good idea of how much time is going to pass in the next few chapters.

Is that the truth or is she planning to lie that she has it? :o Maybe you have a point too with your crackpottery. :leaving:

EDIT - I am not behind it myself but I can't discount that there are some interesting points that support a theory along those lines.

[Caro99]

I will hazard a guess that about 2 or 3 days have passed between the roof scene and the eve of the battle?

So I’ll start with Joff (shudders) Sansa thinks that he calls to her as if she were a dog, which made me recall how Sandor is also Joff’s dog. And i really think that the incident by the trident with arya and nymeria really affected joffrey. This may be why he has such a weird thing regarding swords and Sansa. & even at his wedding, we have Ice melted down into Oathkeeper which was intentionally meant for him, so i guess that’s a contributing factor as to why he behaves like a kid with the kissing sword stuff. & yes, Sansa has grown bitterer through this book (by wishing joff’s sword breaks and he dies and refusing to stay and pray for him (which showed once more that the girl has guts) but she has also grown stronger and cleverer. & i know it’s not important but how could she know that Robb always fought where the battle was more dangerous?

And Ser Ilyn! What is going on there? I sincerely hope it has nothing to do with her death or Sandor’s. But i am starting to suspect that grrm didn’t have Illyn accompany jaime to the riverlands only to be his fighting teacher. Maybe his story arc needed him to get closer to Sansa’s location..?

I love how we finally see her stating she trusts Sandor here. And there were some posts back on how she resembled the Mother, and who was the god she prayed to help Sandor? So she will sort of answer her own prayer there in the bedroom chapter.

This chapter shows once more that Cersei is very transparent with her true self when she is with sansa. Instead of being charming like with old lord rosby’s (or gyle’s) cough or even lady tanda, she acts here just like we see her think in her chapters later on. I remember that jaime and tyrion often mention how they wish to send weak men to their sister cause she devours such characters for breakfast. so by trying to crush Sansa’s poise and ability to bear the pressure of waiting for tides of the battle, cersei is here trying to “live up” to that believe people who know her very well have of her. she thinks Sansa is foolish and so she amuses herself by torturing her with snide and cruel remarks. & by the end of this chapter with cersei mentioning the true knights we can see how much she still thinks Sansa is still the eleven year old girl she knew back at winterfell. Sansa herself may be allowing this believe to stick around thanks to the advice donto’s gives her, and also to contrast the strong girl she is at the beginning of the chapter to the naive girl she once was. & the mention cersei talks about of prince aemon and the other knight (symeon something?? Sorry, I forgot his name) can very well foreshadow brienne rescuing her one day. To think that cersei jokes about prince aemon coming to rescue her- it did happen, with Sandor offering to rescue her, but along the way the roles sort of changed and Sansa saved Sandor more than he saved her.

Someone mentioned how there is a parallel between Sandor and Sansa and crying. She alone cried at the beginning of the roof top scene, and Sandor cried at the end of the bedroom chapter. (Seriously, sorry for getting ahead) but well, I would totally love it if after Sansa wraps herself up in Sandor’s cloak when he leaves, she sheds a single tear while she’s on the floor. She may have been so absorb with everything that had happened to notice it falling down, but it would be really cute IMO J

Thrice the Hound, your theory was very interesting. You backed it up pretty well, but i disagree because of the way Sandor behaves when they next meet in her bedroom. If he had sort of saved her from what you meant, then i can see him saying and doing other things, not “chatting” with her about why he wants to go away & such stuff... but i do believe that since the riot scene was very shocking for Sansa, then she had nightmares about this. And when she put two and two together (the hound saved me from getting what lollys got) then i can see why she would be particularly nice to her.

[Grail King]

OK ladies I just got lost in the thread, I guest I can't watch Spartacus and read at the same time, is what's being said Sansa was raped without her knowledge or consent or some how she entered another female ho was raped?

Also if a word doesn't make sense from me see if it does when you add a "w" to it, my Asus EEE w key is touchy.

[Elba the Intoner]

There were some interesting thoughts here. Thrice is right that the dream Sansa has of the riot is not like her normal dreams and she cries out for real, but, I myself believe that the aftereffects from the nightmare are more due simply to the fact that she is suffering from PTSD. The riot was extremely traumatic for her and I assume that PTSD involves nightmares which are much more physically demanding on your body than a simple bad dream as you replay the trauma over in your nightmare.

Regarding the discrepancy about Sansa sleeping naked in that scene but not in AGOT when Sandor pulls her out of the bed, I think it has to do with the fact that in AGOT, Sansa probably did not put herself to bed at that time. This is right after she sees Ned beheaded and she fainted from that. Someone must have carried her back to her room and gotten her into bed and undressed her down to her shift. I am guessing that Sansa did not get herself into whatever normal sleeping clothes, or non clothes, she usually sleeps in when she is forced out of bed by Joffrey and Sandor at the end of GOT.

[Grail King]

@caro99

& i know it’s not important but how could she know that Robb always fought where the battle was more dangerous?

Sansa doesn't she's trying to manipulate the little shit. :)

[brashcandy]

Caro, I had forgotten to comment on Cersei's statement that Joff shames Sansa because he's never been able to get over her seeing him humiliated. I do think this was important for Sansa to know, and I wonder if she gave it due thought afterward. It's a useful glimpse into the psychology of certain men and how they take out their feelings of inadequacy unto a woman after she's seen them belittled or vanquished. What's really interesting here is the parallels this has to Littlefinger and Sandor. LF once duelled for Cat's "honour" with Brandon and was humiliated. Can we read something of Joffrey's actions into what LF grows up to do: demolish the Stark family and betray Cat, whilst keeping her daughter as a virtual prisoner to sexually molest and control? Ironically, Sandor who is the badass warrior that everyone fears, doesn't seem to mind Sansa seeing him humiliated and defeated. I don't want to jump ahead of the chapter, but we know when he comes to Sansa's bedroom and she asks him who's winning, he replies that he only knows he has lost. And before this he shared his secret of how Gregor burnt his face.

I think this similarity in responses between Joffrey and LF really underscores the menace that the latter poses for Sansa. Can we imagine how he'll react if she doesn't please him or make him feel especially wanted, or god forbid he finds out she has feelings for someone else?

And of course, we have to consider how Sandor's "rejection" issues fit into all this too. Of course we'll get more in-depth when we come to their next scene together, but there's the whole thing about him wanting her to look at him.

[Solaris]

There were some interesting thoughts here. Thrice is right that the dream Sansa has of the riot is not like her normal dreams and she cries out for real, but, I myself believe that the aftereffects from the nightmare are more due simply to the fact that she is suffering from PTSD. The riot was extremely traumatic for her and I assume that PTSD involves nightmares which are much more physically demanding on your body than a simple bad dream as you replay the trauma over in your nightmare.

Regarding the discrepancy about Sansa sleeping naked in that scene but not in AGOT when Sandor pulls her out of the bed, I think it has to do with the fact that in AGOT, Sansa probably did not put herself to bed at that time. This is right after she sees Ned beheaded and she fainted from that. Someone must have carried her back to her room and gotten her into bed and undressed her down to her shift. I am guessing that Sansa did not get herself into whatever normal sleeping clothes, or non clothes, she usually sleeps in when she is forced out of bed by Joffrey and Sandor at the end of GOT.

What if it isn't outright PTSD but a memory of warging these people as it all happened? On the first point. Who remembers the riot scene inside out? I dont' have a book

Lollys was rapped (weren't her teeth smashed in too?)

Who was stabbed in that entourage repeatedly? If at all? (as this could be a description of the feeling of being raped by hundreds of men like lollys was)

Who had half their body missing? Was it the high septon that there wasn't much left of?

New crack pottery -

What if Sansa warged into someone who then died then so on and so forth? (as described by Varamyr on death you are thrown out of the dead body and in that crowd with no training was Sansa leaping from body to body? Is she experiencing everyone's assults/deaths again?

Thrice the Hound, your theory was very interesting. You backed it up pretty well, but i disagree because of the way Sandor behaves when they next meet in her bedroom. If he had sort of saved her from what you meant, then i can see him saying and doing other things, not “chatting” with her about why he wants to go away & such stuff... but i do believe that since the riot scene was very shocking for Sansa, then she had nightmares about this. And when she put two and two together(the hound saved me from getting what lollys got) then i can see why she would be particularly nice to him (?).

There is another thought to consider... which I am more inclined to assume outright. That Sansa is experiencing EXACTLY what happened to Lolly's in that dream. I fancy the idea that Sansa is warging all the time as you know (because she is a superwargmachine) in panic and unknowingly she may have warged into Lollys?

On the latter that may well be the case but we can't know for sure just how affected he would be by what he prevented. We saw his reaction on the roof when Sansa tried to thank him and tell him he was brave and instead he launched into this graphic speech about her father and what knights are really for not much different to him patting his sword and wanting to burn Tyrion and killing people who got in his way conversation in the bedroom. I think we have all established that Sandor does not know how to do tender and caring. Sandor's tender and caring is pull a knife and tell her to sing then cry over it.

Hypothetically speaking if what Thrice is saying is correct would GRRM give us more than this to figure it out? We have all wondered on numerous occasions where and if other "unreliable recollections" have occured why not this instance? (Aside from the fact that it is terrifying to consider?)

In respect to your last comment is it such a stretch to assume that this could be a shadow for Thrice's suggestion? That he saved her twice? Though he would have been a little late for the last one considering the moonwine part, but do you see my point?

I am leaning more to superwarging victims of the riot BTW.

EDIT - That all came across very snappy. Sorry, that wasn't my intention. :)

[brashcandy]

In the chapter here we saw her call Joffrey's sword, Lion's Tooth, but I believe it was Lion's Paw wasn't it? Anyways, not a major mismemory, just a simple lapse in memory. The major one is coming soon :)

As to the warging crackpottery during the battle, how about if she didn't warg the mob or Lollys, but warged Sandor? The moment when his face "transformed"? :)

[Solaris]

As to the warging crackpottery during the battle, how about if she didn't warg the mob or Lollys, but warged Sandor? The moment when his face "transformed"? :)

:o ................................... you mean to defend herself don't you?

[brashcandy]

:o ................................... you mean to defend herself don't you?

;) well maybe she reached out to him psychically, and at that moment they were "one" or transformed, and it explains why she felt so impacted/affected by his actions.

[Caro99]

how intresting would it be to have sansa warg sandor!! whether it be on the riot or two? chapters from now. it doesn't have to be for very long, nor would i like to read a negative reaction from sandor to this (sort of like hodor when bran first warg him). it's just that it's so hard for us to know just how far can sansa go with her warg powers cause of lady's death. is the dream one way for her to warg?or reaching out to sandor maybe?

brash, yes sansa misremebers the sword's name i think twice, and this one was one. but i don't recall it's initial name though. by the way, you talked about some of the contrasts between LF and joffrey and how weird their twisted minds work since humiliating accidents in their youths have sort of driven them to want to seek revenge from those who brought them down once. well, i've just finished reading sansa's last chapter in AFFC and there were many particular moments with LF which made your point of views regarding him so accuate. can't go into details though since we are about two books away from that chapter

Solaris, yes, you’re right, this could very well be a not-reliable reader moment for Sansa. We know she is in a real shock when she reaches the red keep, so maybe she just came out of the warging trance? Not sure if she would warg Sandor or lollys or someone else though. It’s just that this particular theory is so new that I just can’t really believe it. I’ll need some moments to really understand it to take in all its details and implications.

[Raksha the Demon]

Caro, I had forgotten to comment on Cersei's statement that Joff shames Sansa because he's never been able to get over her seeing him humiliated. I do think this was important for Sansa to know, and I wonder if she gave it due thought afterward. It's a useful glimpse into the psychology of certain men and how they take out their feelings of inadequacy unto a woman after she's seen them belittled or vanquished. What's really interesting here is the parallels this has to Littlefinger and Sandor. LF once duelled for Cat's "honour" with Brandon and was humiliated. Can we read something of Joffrey's actions into what LF grows up to do: demolish the Stark family and betray Cat, whilst keeping her daughter as a virtual prisoner to sexually molest and control? Ironically, Sandor who is the badass warrior that everyone fears, doesn't seem to mind Sansa seeing him humiliated and defeated. I don't want to jump ahead of the chapter, but we know when he comes to Sansa's bedroom and she asks him who's winning, he replies that he only knows he has lost. And before this he shared his secret of how Gregor burnt his face.

I think this similarity in responses between Joffrey and LF really underscores the menace that the latter poses for Sansa. Can we imagine how he'll react if she doesn't please him or make him feel especially wanted, or god forbid he finds out she has feelings for someone else?

And of course, we have to consider how Sandor's "rejection" issues fit into all this too. Of course we'll get more in-depth when we come to their next scene together, but there's the whole thing about him wanting her to look at him.

Good points about Joffrey and Littlefinger's not getting over being embarrassed in front of various girls and then taking out their rage on them and others. Sandor and Sansa seem to have a very different and unusual relationship; and on some level, at least at this point, they trust each other and seem to be able to communicate on a fairly deep level, not always with words. Joffrey doesn't trust anyone except Mommy; and Littlefinger trusts no one; though he seems to be closer in trust with Sansa than he is with anyone else we know (perhaps, in LF's very complex and pervy mind, he thinks he is grooming Sansa to be an eventual partner as well as a pawn and agent; I do think he plans on eventually marrying her after she's a widow with highborn children whose domain will need a Lord Protector)...

I am not at all sure that Sansa was warging anyone in her dream. To me, it seemed like an unusually frightening dream coming about as a result of PTSD and the physical discomfort of her first menstruation. Of course, it could be some ghastly vision of future events; I hope not, because I want Sansa to live and prosper...

[Grail King]

OK Spartacus is over, if Sansa is actually warging a person, they are going to fight her (remember sixskins and bran with hodor) so I don't think she's warging the hound he's sorta mentally tough and always in survival mode so he kick her ass out of his mind, now Lolly is a different matter, emotionally weak, low IQ that may be possible as I said in some other thread I think Sansa would need some kind of emotional rage to warg something large or mentally fortified.

We see how she empathize with people and animals so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

And since I said this I don't consider LF mentally or emotionally strong, I think mentally smart is different than mentally strong.....soooo may be he dies with out using poison or a hand touching him.

OK maybe that's a little CP.

[adreamer]

Hello all.

This is my first post and I would like to share some thoughts about Sansa. At first I considered her stupid and boring and didn't put much attention in her chapters, but at some point something caught my attention and I did some reread.

So lately I was thinking isn't Sansa a women version of her own true knight idea. She is by no means strong and brave. She didn't let Jofrey break her down (looking, but not seeing scene). Then constantly humiliated, beaten and her life being always in danger she is still trying to help people, whom she owe nothing (Dontos). She even tried to teach Jofrey compassion and support when Tommen fell (a lost cause but showing she is not losing her faith in people easy). Then my favorite part is in the castle during the battle, Cersei deserted her people, but Sansa like a true queen stood there trying to calm and reassure everyone, then help Lancel, while her own life was in danger.

You don't need a sword or a dagger in order to be a true knight. At first I thought it was just courtesy, but no one would risk his life for a courtesy lesson.

I have some ideas on San\San relationship as well, but I'll come later to share those, cause as it is plain English is not my native language and it takes to much time to put my toughs in English words :) .

[Thrice the Hound]

I like everything! You guys have come up weith heaps I didn't think of. I have much to think about now. :D

[Solaris]

;) well maybe she reached out to him psychically, and at that moment they were "one" or transformed, and it explains why she felt so impacted/affected by his actions.

:D oh right! I get you, I was still on the astral concept and got left behind.

EDIT - I've answered my own question about entourage injuries. In her flashback of the riot in the Godswood;

"they tried to pull her off her horse, and would have done worse had the Hound not cut his way to her side. They had torn the High Septon to pieces and smashed Ser Aron's head with a rock."