The realist thread

[Dragon greyscale]

Hi all,

I've been reading up on this section of the forum for a while and it struck me how much resistance there is towards changes with regard to adapting the books. I love the books but after having read them I realized that changes to the story are inevitable. I have said it elsewhere: TV and novels are different media and should be treated as such. This does not make the one better than the other. Just different. This thread is for realists, not fanboy idealists. I'll outline the main reasons why I think the show will have to become "inspired by" the books, rather than "translations of" the books.

As has been mentioned by many, GoT was only the beginning of this saga. It kicked of the events in the rest of the books. At the same time, HBO barely managed to contain this kick-off in 10 episodes. It is important to realize, I think, that the pov structure in GoT achieved the following: it showed different perspectives on (roughly) the same chain of events. In later books, the pov's develop into different chain of events all together. The pov's become more and more disconnected from each other.

The first season saw a little bit of winterfell, a little bit of the wall, a little bit of Kings Landing, a little bit of the Vale and a little bit of the Twins but all of these little bits were connected; everybody starts in winterfell; tyrion and jon go to the wall; The King's posse, Ned, Sansa, Arya and Catelyn go to KL; Tyrion and Catalyn go to the Vale; Robb, Theon and Catelyn go to the Twins and all of these little bits made up one big story (Dany being and remaining the exception).

The next seasons will be different though. All the little bits will become like Dany's; seemingly unrelated or only connected through ravens. Jon is beyond the Wall, Robb is in the West, Arya is roaming the riverlands, Sansa Tyrion and Cersei are in KL; they're all disoneected from the beginning.

In terms of adaptation, this means that the screen-time for every 'event' becomes ever larger and it will become increasingly diffcult to fit a book in 10 episodes. For instance, the show's handling of the vale covers both Tyrion and Catelyn PoVs. Now, their individual stories need twice as much screentime.

A realistic approach to the adaptation would need to take into account that the amount of season will, at best, be 4 or 5. This is a good run for any show. So we have limited time within a season but we also have limited time within the entire run of the show. Significant cuts will be made, inevitably.

All of which leads me to the realist question: what should be changed to the story for the show to remain a high quality and respectful to the books? What should be cut? what should definitely be included? What is a satisfying end to the story of the tv show? This is your chance for fanfiction!

[Leuf]

In the immediate future, season 2-3 and maybe a bit more, I don't think there's any trouble with the different locations. All the Westeros stuff that was connected in season 1 is still pretty much connected. You have lots of characters in the riverlands and it creates tension in that you don't know who is going to run into who.

I agree that the show should be trying to wrap things up in 5-6 years, but I don't see the show's producers planning it like that. They seem to just have their eyes on getting through season 3 at this point. They couldn't possibly wrap it up properly in 4. I'm pretty resigned to the show getting cancelled after 4-5 years. If you want to wrap things up faster, it's pretty obvious what needs to happen. Dany needs to come to Westeros, pronto. Winter has to come at the end of season 4.

[master]

I don't mind changes to the structure. But the plot, the names [Even when talking about the show I'll refer to all characters by their real names], the flashbacks, and where possible the dialogue should stay the same.

if they add a new character I don't like that. But if they need to add a few more scenes to make it more appealing I'm fine with it as long as it follows the plot of the books. Like some of the scenes between jaime and cersei in the first season. if in the second they have:

ahsa and balon talking about the upcoming attack I'll be fine with it as long as asha doesnt go out of character and say she wants to be made queen of the reach

It might not be realistic without a budget ten times the size. But at the very least they can keep the names the same, ugh.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

This is assuming that GRRM turns out the last 2 books in good time, but I hope we get enough seasons for all the books. If not i'm sure the producers know enough of it that they can formulate their own ending.

But I don't really mind changes as long as they don't change a big chunk of it and the changes make a lot of sense. Mostly I'm okay with cutting unimportant charactors and things out, but if you are going to leave stuff in i want it to be pretty accurate.

[Padraig]

I'm thinking 5, 6 seasons are a reasonable target right now. We are almost certainly going to get 3 seasons and the hype has built up over the last year, so to stop at 4 would involve a rather drastic reverse. At the same time, yes, I think the showrunners are concentrating on 1 season at a time right now, with some thought put on the subsequent season, so that they don't straight-jacket themselves.

While they have given some characters more screen-time in S2 compared to aCoK, the story does remain essentially the same, so I don't see much evidence of a major divergence from the novels.

Things do begin to tie up in later books but we still have a long way to go.

[LifeRuiner]

I like the show and all it has chosen to be. Television is a different medium than the books, and it lives in dog years, so the writers simply have to adapt to survive past S2. If they don't portray the books blow by blow but provide great entertainment anyway, I wouldn't whine about the show evolving into a somewhat separate canon or certain plotlines being dropped or shortened. For some characters like Shae and Renly, I already prefer their show incarnations.

That said, I don't believe the show will ever be finished and all I wish is for ASoS to be split in two seasons because it would suffer from being squished into ten episodes. AFfC and ADwD can easily be trimmed to fit into a season each but again, I doubt we will ever see them or see them with the current cast. As to the ending, is it too much to wish for a happy one?

[Padraig]

The showrunners have already said that aSoS will take more than 1 season. Now that could be 1 season and 1 episode, 2 full seasons or (more likely IMO) somewhere in between.

Seeing all of aDwD and aFfC is not that optimistic (depending on how long aSoS lasts) but that's because I think 5 seasons is a realistic target right now, given how popular GoT is. Certainly 5 seasons gives D&D plenty time to show at least a good chunk of books 4 and 5.

As for an ending. GRRM has said that it will have a bittersweet ending. I'm not particularly worried if the TV show doesn't get to the proper end. I'd certainly prefer them to remain consistent with the story, rather than diverge hugely, except that they should tie some things off (rather than end with big cliffhangers). An obvious example would be having Dany arrive in Westeros. It certainly wouldn't be the end of her story but I would be annoyed as a TV viewer if the series ends before Dany even arrives in Westeros. (You could argue that would be a cliffhanger but i'm thinking more of a literal cliff-hanger).

You might argue that isn't very realistic but few serial TV shows end with proper endings. HBO does have a better record but you can still find a few of their shows that end more abruptly. The ending of aSoS isn't a bad way to end the story. The ending of AFfC/aDwD isn't a good way to stop but with a little bit of work, they could make it more substantial too.

[Lord Barristan]

The showrunners have already said that aSoS will take more than 1 season. Now that could be 1 season and 1 episode, 2 full seasons or (more likely IMO) somewhere in between. Seeing all of aDwD and aFfC is not that optimistic (depending on how long aSoS lasts) but that's because I think 5 seasons is a realistic target right now, given how popular GoT is. Certainly 5 seasons gives D&D plenty time to show at least a good chunk of books 4 and 5. As for an ending. GRRM has said that it will have a bittersweet ending. I'm not particularly worried if the TV show doesn't get to the proper end. I'd certainly prefer them to remain consistent with the story, rather than diverge hugely, except that they should tie some things off (rather than end with big cliffhangers). An obvious example would be having Dany arrive in Westeros. It certainly wouldn't be the end of her story but I would be annoyed as a TV viewer if the series ends before Dany even arrives in Westeros. (You could argue that would be a cliffhanger but i'm thinking more of a literal cliff-hanger). You might argue that isn't very realistic but few serial TV shows end with proper endings. HBO does have a better record but you can still find a few of their shows that end more abruptly. The ending of aSoS isn't a bad way to end the story. The ending of AFfC/aDwD isn't a good way to stop but with a little bit of work, they could make it more substantial too.

I think the most likely scenario is that the season they do dance and feast they just tie up the cliffhangers left at the end, particularly the Stannis and Battle of Ice issues. If you think about it, both books had a lot of filler, but a hell of a lot of stuff happens. Iron born attack the reach, Cersei's dealing in KL, Jaime and the Blackfish/Edmure (if they are ever included), Brienne's encounters with riorge and biter, the brotherhood w/out banners, and uncat, Stannis takes back Deepwood Motte, plus they could show him meating the mountain clans, the whole deal with the wildlings, which could be awesome if they get good people to play Tormund and Val. We've also got th Tyrion meeting Jorah which could be fun to watch considering how good both actors are.

The biggest issues with Dance is that, despite all the filler, it contains a lot of fantasy elements. Dany has to ride a dragon, quentyn has to get burned by one, plus Bran with Bloodraven- though this could allow some flashbacks of Sean Bean, providing he'd be willing to do them, the glamor on Mance... plus not sure how great the Reek scenes would be without Theon's inner monologue.

[Dohogerse]

I think the most likely scenario is that the season they do dance and feast they just tie up the cliffhangers left at the end, particularly the Stannis and Battle of Ice issues. If you think about it, both books had a lot of filler, but a hell of a lot of stuff happens. Iron born attack the reach, Cersei's dealing in KL, Jaime and the Blackfish/Edmure (if they are ever included), Brienne's encounters with riorge and biter, the brotherhood w/out banners, and uncat, Stannis takes back Deepwood Motte, plus they could show him meating the mountain clans, the whole deal with the wildlings, which could be awesome if they get good people to play Tormund and Val. We've also got th Tyrion meeting Jorah which could be fun to watch considering how good both actors are.

The biggest issues with Dance is that, despite all the filler, it contains a lot of fantasy elements. Dany has to ride a dragon, quentyn has to get burned by one, plus Bran with Bloodraven- though this could allow some flashbacks of Sean Bean, providing he'd be willing to do them, the glamor on Mance... plus not sure how great the Reek scenes would be without Theon's inner monologue.

I think if they get creative Dance and Feast could be trimmed and combined into one season considering they are both parallel novels. They wont do a whole a season withou Jon and Dany, Davos, and the rest of the cast. It will be sad to see some changes, but I believe and support that they should make it more their own than being a carbon copy of the books, as long as it remains true in spirit and essence Ill support them, and hopefully Edmure and Blackbeard can be introduced in a nother context, perhaps with Robb in the west while Catelyn travels to meet Renly.

An for Reek I could him monologuing his innner thoughts about his name in a very obsesive compulsive way, small mutters, plus hopefully season 2 will do a good job on setting that storyline.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

You could probably do FFC and DWD in 2 seasons.

[_Oberyn_]

If AFFC gets its own season the show will die for sure. AFFC and ADWD have to be merged in chronological order of events for the show to mantain interest.

[Lord Barristan]

If AFFC gets its own season the show will die for sure. AFFC and ADWD have to be merged in chronological order of events for the show to mantain interest.

There's no chance they will do that. In fact, I don't even complain about either Dance or Feast... They were both good books, despite the complaints of lots of filler. I question the people who say that with, what sorts of books do you read? More stuff happens in those two allegedly "boring" books than 90% of the other books I've read. They just don't come close to Storm of Swords, which will be damn near impossible to top. One of my top 3 books of any genre all time

The only mistake GRRM made was seperating the characters geographically. If you reread those to books in chronological order, they make one bad book. Sure the cliff hangers were a bit annoying, but plenty of stuff happened in both. Together, they will make a good season. Especially because we get to see alot of the fan favorites Jon Snow, Tyrion, Dany, and also the less important people such as Theon, Mance Rayder, Barristan Selmy, Roose Bolton, Wyman Manderly...

And Stannis' dry sense of humor everytime he parlays with Jon is just hilararious. They should end that season with Stannis either beating the Boltons/Freys or faking his death and escaping with Theon and Asha. We don't know what will happen, but it will make captivating reading, and later captivating TV

[GoodGuyA]

I think it's entirely realistic for the show to finish. The thing people don't seem to get is that HBO keeps its shows around based on the wealth as put behind it, and there's a lot of people who just went (and still go) crazy over this series. There's all ready hints of Season 3 rolling into pre-production phase, which means Season 4 is almost assured. I think they could switch between AFFC and ADWD for 2 seasons, mixing in before and after elements as well and create something at least visually pleasing.

[Vuron]

There's no chance they will do that. In fact, I don't even complain about either Dance or Feast... They were both good books, despite the complaints of lots of filler. I question the people who say that with, what sorts of books do you read? More stuff happens in those two allegedly "boring" books than 90% of the other books I've read. They just don't come close to Storm of Swords, which will be damn near impossible to top. One of my top 3 books of any genre all time

The only mistake GRRM made was seperating the characters geographically. If you reread those to books in chronological order, they make one bad book. Sure the cliff hangers were a bit annoying, but plenty of stuff happened in both. Together, they will make a good season. Especially because we get to see alot of the fan favorites Jon Snow, Tyrion, Dany, and also the less important people such as Theon, Mance Rayder, Barristan Selmy, Roose Bolton, Wyman Manderly...

And Stannis' dry sense of humor everytime he parlays with Jon is just hilararious. They should end that season with Stannis either beating the Boltons/Freys or faking his death and escaping with Theon and Asha. We don't know what will happen, but it will make captivating reading, and later captivating TV

I have to agree with Oberyn on this one. Turning AFFC into it's own season would kill the series, due to all the fan favorites not being in the season. This also technical issues with contracts, aging, etc. AFFC and ADwD would have to be combined in order to keep the flow. TV viewers have a much more fickle attitude when it comes to keeping interest and there are too many other channels to keep watching a show that no longer has any of your favorite characters.

To answer the general question, I don't see how it would be possible to complete the series on TV. We're talking about, at least, 7 seasons if we only stick to 1 season per book. If we start extending seasons and it projects out to 9 or 10 seasons, there is no way it lasts. There have only been a very limited numbers of series in history that have run this long.

If the series doesn't run through completion, I don't see HBO wrapping it up. I think they would just end the series where it stopped without giving us all the answers to books that hadn't been published, yet.

[Jussi]

If you think about it, both books had a lot of filler,

Martin doesn't write filler.

I would never include "filler" in any book.

[Werthead]

This is assuming that GRRM turns out the last 2 books in good time

I don't think it does. HBO aren't going to cancel a successful show or put it on hold for however long it takes GRRM to write the last books. Based on the info we have so far, it sounds like they will continue the series past where GRRM is up to and write their own conclusion to the story, based on GRRM's outline and notes. Hopefully they'll get GRRM to write the final episode of the series, in that case.

[Leuf]

I don't think it does. HBO aren't going to cancel a successful show or put it on hold for however long it takes GRRM to write the last books. Based on the info we have so far, it sounds like they will continue the series past where GRRM is up to and write their own conclusion to the story, based on GRRM's outline and notes. Hopefully they'll get GRRM to write the final episode of the series, in that case.

Has anyone been able to pin down GRRM to a real answer to how he feels about that possibility? If it were the defining work of my career I would be damned if the tv show was going to come anywhere close to my ending before I had the chance to write and publish the last book.

I think if HBO were of a mind to run the series for the 8-10 years it would take to stay faithful to the books the whole way they would have made ACOK two seasons. But over that time period you have to deal with not just actors who may not want to keep doing the series but also changes in the executives at HBO who can have a different vision of how the show fits into the network. Which could even be a good thing for the show, but usually that's bad for existing shows as the new people want to put their mark on the network with their own projects.

[Westerosi Dude]

How is this going to pan out then?

2011 - Season 1; Book 5 released

2012 - Season 2

2013 - Season 3 Part 1

2014 - Season 3 Part 2; Book 6 released

2015 - Season 4 (combination of AFFC and ADWD with Samwell, Ironborn and Dorne parts cut down heavily)

2016 - Season 5 (based on Winds of Winter)

2017 - Season 6 (based on Dream of Spring) and Book 7 released - in the same year?!

Personally I kind of hope in a way that they stop making the TV series after finishing adapting A Storm of Swords because I think it would go downhill after that, actors would have to be re-cast (especially Arya, who's actress by 2016 would be an 18 year old playing an 11 year old character), and the idea that the final book and TV series are released in the same year is a bit ridiculous.

[Padraig]

Has anyone been able to pin down GRRM to a real answer to how he feels about that possibility?

I don't think so. People have asked but, naturally enough, he has avoided it and focused on how far in the future we are jumping to. 3 years in TV world is indeed massive.

If they split aCoK into 2 seasons, it would be almost impossible to get the series done in 8-10 seasons (given that the subsequent books are unlikely to be smaller than aCoK). You'd probably need at least 12! So that's a non-runner.

I'd agree with the idea that if HBO decideds to stop the series before it gets to the end then I think we'll see a few threads tidied up a little (it is in HBO's interest to give it some closure) but we wouldn't see them undermine the whole story by forcing a full ending.

especially Arya, who's actress by 2016 would be an 18 year old playing an 11 year old character

The age thing is not a concern at all. There is no reason why Arya has to remain an 11-year old! GRRM originally wanted a 5 year gap, so we were going to see her in book 4 as a 16 year old. And given aSoS is going to take more than 1 season, there is no way they will be able to finish the 7 book series in 6 seasons. 7 is a bare minimum.

I'm not worried about special effects either. They'll manage, even if it means cutting down scene's like Quentyn's to the bare bones.

[Werthead]

Has anyone been able to pin down GRRM to a real answer to how he feels about that possibility? If it were the defining work of my career I would be damned if the tv show was going to come anywhere close to my ending before I had the chance to write and publish the last book.

GRRM's answer seems to have been that the TV show is the TV show and the books are the books, they are different things and will become more and more different as they continue on.