Hatching a Dragon: My Summerhall Theory

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But I don't think it's logical to assume all prophecies relating to Dragons just mean Targs.After all we have three real Dragons as foretold by Rhaegar himself.It's the identity of the three heads that's missing.

I think it was clear that Rhaegar viewed the "heads of the dragon" as his three children. There's no evidence that he was thinking of literal dragons.

When I read about the "treason" what I assumed was some 'changes in the succession' if you catch my meaning.

That makes sense, too.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Why do the Targaryens think one of them will be the PTWP? Or what theories do you have if we don't know why? I couldn't remember. Also when is the first, farthest back in time, that we know of the Targaryens being concerened about the PTWP?

[K1NGSLAYER]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think it might have been Rhaegar.

[Lykos]

Why do the Targaryens think one of them will be the PTWP? Or what theories do you have if we don't know why? I couldn't remember. Also when is the first, farthest back in time, that we know of the Targaryens being concerened about the PTWP?

"A woodswitch" tells Egg ( Aegon V) that the PTWP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella This certainly appears to be the Ghost of High Heart, who refers to Jenny of Oldstones as "my Jenny". Her prophecy relates to Aerys Targaryen being wed to his sister Rhaella due to her prophecy. Interestingly, the speaker -- Ser Barristan -- refers to "the prince that was promised" quite casually, as if it's a prophecy he's familiar with. According toThe Citadel .

Interesting post, Apple Martini. I wish we knew more about the relationship between the Ghost of High Heart and the recent generations of Targaryens. I want to talk about the Ghost for a bit before getting into the theory itself. Was she only as close to Aegon as she seemed to be because of Duncan Targaryen's close ties to Jenny of Oldstones?

The Ghost herself strikes me as someone with potentially strong ties to the First Men or the Children of the Forest. Barristan mentions that Jenny of Oldstones made the claim that the Ghost was one of the Children, though the physical description doesn't line up with what we see in Bran's PoV. With her gift for dreams, visions, and prophecies and her red eyes, there's a good chance she might be a greenseer (but then Bloodraven wouldn't be the last one). In some ways, she seems to be much older than even her physical age would suggest.

The majority of the prophecies the Ghost gives are very dark, portending suffering, death, and sadness. For that reason, it might make sense to suspect that whatever she told Aegon might have been similarly dark or prone to misinterpretation. Alternatively, the darkness in her visions could have occurred as a result of the tragedy of Summerhall. Does her previous involvement with the Targaryen royal family tell us anything useful about what her recent prophecies might mean, or whether there's more going on with her than it seems?

I think your idea is plausible, but I also wonder if there's any significance to the designation of "dragon" in the Targaryen line. Most Targaryens like to invoke dragon imagery to describe themselves, their heritage, their tempers, and their belief in their special status among mortal men. The dragon symbolizes the Targaryen family as a whole, but it's pretty clear that not all individual members are "the dragon." When Viserys dies, Dany tells us he wasn't a dragon. Rhaegar is described as the last dragon. In your post, it seems likely Aegon V was also a dragon. In a way, the desgination seems a bit like the Targaryen version of the Sword of the Morning, reserved for exceptional members of the family.

In the sense of the story, what does a human "dragon" get us? Is it any more than just an expression of Targaryen conceit? Does it tell us something special about the individual bearing the title? Does it mark that person as potential candidate for the PtwP or Azor Ahai reborn? Rhaegar seemed like had the potential to be a great man in many regards, ranging from his interest in prophecy to his prowess as a warrior and his promises of reform. He never really had the chance to deliver on any of it before his life and his dynasty came to an end. What do all these people have in common and what does the concept tell us about the story and the nature of events in Westeros over the past centuries?

From what the Ghost tells us I assumed the Darkness comes from the "Tragedy".

I agree that Rhaegar was the Dragon hatched from Summerhall,it's logical because no real dragons were hatched in the tragedy.

But I don't think it's logical to assume all prophecies relating to Dragons just mean Targs.After all we have three real Dragons as foretold by Rhaegar himself.It's the identity of the three heads that's missing.

We have prophecies and visions from various characters to work on,but it seems to me we are missing one.The one that made Rhaegar lay down his books and take up the sword.The one where he learns of the "Prince who was promised" who's song is of Ice and Fire.

When that prophecy is revealed it must contain references to Dragons and the Ice threat and both Targs and Starks to judge by his behaviour before he died.

I have to wonder if Rhaegar being upset over the Summerhall incident didn't look for some way to make up for it. Wasn't he real bookish then one day after reading a book he was more concerned about learning martial arts. Ok remember the book "Book of Lost Books" that the Reader was reading when Asha came to see him. Marwyn put that book together.

Marwyn claimed he found three pages from a lost book and put them in his. This lost book was called "Sign and Portents" which was put together by and from visions of a Aenar Targaryen's daughter. Aenar lived in Valyria before the Doom and his daugter and her visions and her book must have been a big deal. (I've even seen it speculated that she predicted the Doom so they fled to Dragonstone, which there is no proven connection to Aenar and the line of Targs we know)

But what if she predicted this whole Targayen PTWP thing and Rhaegar found this book. Not only could he atone for the Summerhall tragedy but he had more info to the PTWP thing. If it is happening now he would feel a definate sense of urgancy and it would explain a lot with him. This in my mind would disconnect the PTWP from AA also. So what do you guys think? Really why do we have info about this book?

"Sign and Portents" this I was looking for. I love you, and pass on your calling: "So what do you guys think?"

[Sandy Clegg]

"The dragon has three heads."

Wild thought: What if the dragon with three heads is one Targaryen with three distinct identities (heads)? For example, if it turns out to be Jon, the three "heads" would be Jon as a Stark, Jon as a Targaryen and Jon as a Night's Watch brother. If it's Dany (the idea makes me feel blech but I'd be stupid not to consider it), it could be several things: her being a queen, a wife and a mother (eventually); her "three crowns" (Westeros, the Free Cities [eventually] and Slaver's Bay); or something else. I admit that it's easier to apply this to Jon in my head but it could still fit Dany in some context.

Let's extend this idea. If Jon is TPTWP and also the "dragon" who has "three heads", then we may assume that his main role will be to stop the Others (if for no other reason that his story arc is based at the Wall, whose sole purpose is to keep the Others out).

What if the stone dragons he "awakens" are connected with one aspect of his identity, but not the Targ one. Aren't there a ton of Starks buried in the crypts of Winterfell, with much mention being made of the stone statues that accompany them? Now, I know this is ramping up the fantasy quotient somewhat, but what if the culmination of the books involves a resurrected Jon (AA, or however you want to call him) having to raise an army to fight the Others? He would have Dany's dragons if Dany joins him eventually (1st head), the remainder of the Night's Watch (2nd head), and an army of stone Starks who would be immune to becoming wights (3rd head).

Yes, it is another leap away from the literal "dragons from stone" theory, but GRRM is sneaky like that, no?

[Longspear Ryk]

I agree with your theory.. But here are my thoughts..

Could it be possible every targaryon is a dragon? Maybe theres only one Per generation? Baelor, egg, rhaegar dany?

Edit: ahh that doesnt make sense though due to the fact dany and rhaegar are brother and sister

[Cubicz]

I dont think they hatched an egg at all. I think the answer is more mundane. Areys II killed off his family... who else benefitted in the line of succession. Its the start of the Mad King

[Stoned Dragon]

I'm very keen on the idea that "waking stone dragons" refers to embracing or discovering a dormant (stone) Targaryen identity. To be fair, this could refer to Jon and/or Dany — one or both of them embracing their, uh, inner dragon. Literalists point to Dany hatching the eggs as "waking stone dragons." This makes sense literally, but like I've said, that's not how these dragon-visions unfold. In any case, I think there's something to be said for the idea that Illyrio's "petrified eggs from Asshai" are really from the Targaryen house stash (i.e. the idea that Rhaegal hatched from Aegon V's green egg), in which case, they're probably not as old as has been advertised and may not be stone/petrified at all.

Can the stone dragon be Shireen? The girl is one of the few legitimate Targaryan descendents running around and she has greyscale. And I personally think we've spent too much time on her (and Patchface) for her not to factor into the story. I don't dispute that Jon/Dany fit the description differently and perhaps better, but if we are talking about Targaryans being "awoken from stone," I think we should add Shireen in the mix too.

[Stoned Dragon]

I agree with your theory.. But here are my thoughts..

Could it be possible every targaryon is a dragon? Maybe theres only one Per generation? Baelor, egg, rhaegar dany?

Edit: ahh that doesnt make sense though due to the fact dany and rhaegar are brother and sister

I agree with you that I think the "dragon" is a specific trait or quality that some Targaryans have. Obviously like you said it can't be every generation gets one, but it could be something inheritable. It reminds me of the greenseers vs. wood dancers distinction amongst the CotF - where only a few (1:1000) gets one ability and every 1:1000 of them gets a better ability. The Targs could mirror that with being the "dragon"

Remember that when ever a Targ is born the God's flip a coin to decide if they are crazy or not -- perhaps theres another coin deciding who gets to be a "dragon" and who isn't.

[ViserionsFire]

After reading the D & E stories, I think what we know of that happened at Summerhall was in reality a coverup for what truly happened that night.

From what we know of Egg, he casually acknowledges that he and his brothers were given dragon eggs at birth and nowhere in the stories does he dwell on hatching the eggs. In fact, he seemed to be level headed and not inclined to be lead on by notions of fantasy. So, consider this theory.

It would be time when all the Targaryen family members would be at Summerhall for the birth of Rhaegar. Aegon V, King of the Seven Kingdoms is there along with his heir Duncan. Of course, Aegons brother Jaehaerys would be there to celebrate his grandsons birth, as well as the proud father Aerys. There is another person who may have attended. A friend of the Lannisters and newly appointed Maester to the Throne, Pycelle. It seems that Aerys and Tywin Lannister were childhood friends and kept close friendship throughout most of there early life. I think that Aerys, after the celebration and birth of Rhaegar, send Rhaella and his newborn son away. Then, before the house rises, he and Pycelle set flame to Sumerhall to kill King Aegon, his heir Duncan and the honorable Commander of the Kingsguard whom Aerys would be accountable to for his crime, in order to place his frail and sickly father Jaehaerys II on the throne. Knowing that his father was frail, Pycelle ddin't have to push very hard to get him out of the way. Aerys becomes King and Tywin Lannister becomes his hand, ruling the kingdom in Aerys name. Also, previously having burned alive those that Aerys perceives as obstacles, it was then second nature to conceive Rickard Stark’s similar torture.

[Howling Mad]

It would be time when all the Targaryen family members would be at Summerhall for the birth of Rhaegar. Aegon V, King of the Seven Kingdoms is there along with his heir Duncan. Of course, Aegons brother Jaehaerys would be there to celebrate his grandsons birth, as well as the proud father Aerys. There is another person who may have attended. A friend of the Lannisters and newly appointed Maester to the Throne, Pycelle. It seems that Aerys and Tywin Lannister were childhood friends and kept close friendship throughout most of there early life. I think that Aerys, after the celebration and birth of Rhaegar, send Rhaella and his newborn son away. Then, before the house rises, he and Pycelle set flame to Sumerhall to kill King Aegon, his heir Duncan and the honorable Commander of the Kingsguard whom Aerys would be accountable to for his crime, in order to place his frail and sickly father Jaehaerys II on the throne. Knowing that his father was frail, Pycelle ddin't have to push very hard to get him out of the way. Aerys becomes King and Tywin Lannister becomes his hand, ruling the kingdom in Aerys name. Also, previously having burned alive those that Aerys perceives as obstacles, it was then second nature to conceive Rickard Stark’s similar torture.

Interesting take on Pycelle, however, with Aryes, Tywin, and Pycelle dead who would be left to reveal these events?

[ViserionsFire]

Interesting take on Pycelle, however, with Aryes, Tywin, and Pycelle dead who would be left to reveal these events?

Perhaps we'll get a POV from Aegons 3rd son, the brother of both Duncan and Jaehaerys, that has not been identified yet.

[jsjoslin18]

Apple, I totally agree with everything, also Bloodraven may have disagreed with the ghost's prophesy "that a dragon will hatch at summer hall" and that might be the reason he was sent to the wall? what do you think?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple, I totally agree with everything, also Bloodraven may have disagreed with the ghost's prophesy "that a dragon will hatch at summer hall" and that might be the reason he was sent to the wall? what do you think?

Timing's off. Bloodraven was sent to the black cells when Maekar I was king, and sent to the Wall when Aegon V was crowned. So he'd already be on the Wall when Summerhall occurred, if not already plugged into the weirwood net.

And I don't believe that Aerys assassinated his family, that's pretty crackpot. He didn't become truly murderous and paranoid until after Duskendale, years after Summerhall.

As for the idea that Aegon V wouldn't be interested in hatching dragons — Aegon III watched a dragon devour his mother (which probably involved a roasting, eesh), was known as Dragonbane because the last dragons died when he was king ... and still had mages try to hatch the remaining family eggs. If he can still want to hatch dragons, I think Aegon V could, too. We don't know what might have happened between his childhood and adulthood.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

Great thread, I agree on the Summerhall theory, and share your same feelings towards the AA, tPwwP, etc..

[PrinceHenryris]

Personally, I think that the folks at Summerhall, and Aerion Brightflame were willing to play with Wildfyre to hatch a dragon but didn't want to offer blood - hence things went wrong.

Dany offered the eggs, Drogo's corpse, and MMD, as well as herself when she hatched her eggs.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Personally, I think that the folks at Summerhall, and Aerion Brightflame were willing to play with Wildfyre to hatch a dragon but didn't want to offer blood - hence things went wrong.

Dany offered the eggs, Drogo's corpse, and MMD, as well as herself when she hatched her eggs.

But they did offer blood, did they not? Perhaps inadvertently, but still ... they died.

[Dr. Pepper]

I wish I had something useful to add. I really want to read the Dunk and Egg novellas they are so difficult to acquire. The novellas are very difficult to find in English outside of English speaking countries and I don't trust my second and third language reading abilities when it comes to SF/F. Grr. Here's hoping they finally end up in a collected kindle-edition volume.

One thing I totally love about your theory, Apple Martini, is that it supports an alternative interpretation of the whole 'dragon has three heads'. I have never been able to accept that 'the dragon has three heads' equals three different riders. That (very popular) theory didn't appear to me while reading and every thread I read about it fails to convince me. If the visions/prophecies about dragons actually refer to Targs, it makes absolute sense (to me, at least) that the three heads could be three different facets of a person. Jon as Targ, Stark and NW. FAegon as Targ pretender, Young Griff, and conqueror (not sure if that really works with what you presented). Dany (ugh) as mother, invader, queen. Who else?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, that bugs me too. I don't know how people go from "the dragon has three heads" to "these three dragons will have three different riders who'll be the heads of the dragon." For one thing, it's not a given that each rider will be allied with the others (one dragon with three heads suggests a concerted, not opposing, effort). For another, this prophecy almost certainly predates the Targ sigil itself, which is really the only instance of one three-headed dragon (meaning, Rhaegar ret-conned the prophecy and assumed it meant three different people because that's who the conquerors were, even though there's no evidence I can see where the prophecy and the conquerors are related). ETA: That is to say, the idea of the "dragon has three heads" might very well appear in the prophecy proper, but the idea of that referring to three different people as dragonriders appears to be a more "modern" construct on the part of Rhaegar, implied by him naming his children after the three original conquerors (showing that in his mind, the prophecy was linked to Aegon and his sisters, even though that might not actually be the case).

[PrinceHenryris]

But they did offer blood, did they not? Perhaps inadvertently, but still ... they died.

Perhaps that was the difference? Dany made the blood sacrifice, but, also walked into the flames herself.