Aeron Greyjoy molested?

[DornishKnight]

If he was waterboarded for Euron's sick pleasure, then it would explain Aeron's whole "That man was drowned" fixation. Maybe his near-death at sea resulted in him rewriting his personality to forget his past with Euron. Maybe by drowning and returning to life, he saw it as overcoming the Euron's torments, pushed farther than Euron ever went. When Euron returns, Aeron starts flashing back to that, and he wants it to go away.

Or maybe he was just raped. That works too...

Or maybe his head was held underwater while being sodomized?

[Mumatil]

Certainly one of the most common things you read about or hear in interviews with molested children, either male or female, is their fear of some sound or instruction that signals another bout of molestation. The sound of footsteps on the stairs up to their room, the turning of a lock, the casual phrase, I'll see you tonight, and the creaking hinge and the fear he has fits in with the classic signs of the memories of a molested child.

Same could be said about smells, or certain visual stimuli, and also the trauma could be done by other things Euron might have caused.

Why does it always have to be sexual?

[corbon]

Same could be said about smells, or certain visual stimuli, and also the trauma could be done by other things Euron might have caused.

Why does it always have to be sexual?

It doesn't 'always' have to be sexual.

In Aeron's case it is clear that purely physical trauma is highly unlikely to have made such a deep seated and powerful emotional scarring, given the typical physical brutallity that was clearly a fact of everyday life as a Greyjoy sibling.

The waterboarding reference is a joke. These are Greyjoys, waterboarding would be a cross between a fun sport and a religiously significant ritual for them.

The simple fact is that since it is highly unlikely to be a purely physical thing, and the recipient feels entirely "unmanned", not to mention later becomes a priest, it is very likely to be have been a sexual thing.

We also have Victarion's evidence that Euron used sex as a psycological weapon. Not just the treatment of his wife, but the way he talked about it to Victarion afterward.

So we have a victim severely traumatised, but not by something physical, and an abuser who uses sex as a tool for power. Go figure.

In Tommen's case it isn't an assumption of sexual abuse by Joffrey, its a possibility.

Tommen associates "going away inside" with 'torment' by Joffrey. Joffrey is disturbed little sadist, but he is unlikely to have been able to get away with doing anything that left marks on Tommen. And few things that don't leave marks are bad enough to make someone "go away inside", at least as done by a young boy as abuser. And Joffrey's later abuses of Sansa have definite sexual overtunes - he didn't need her stripped naked for beating. So there is a hint there that the abuser has a sexually abusive side. That doesn't mean his torment of Tommen was definitely sexual, but the possibility is definitely hinted at in the text.

Turn it the other way round. Why wouldn't it be sexual (in both or either case)?

The abusers are shown to have disturbed sexuality. The abused are either inured to or safe from serious purely-physical abuse. Why is sexual abuse off the table?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

If he was waterboarded for Euron's sick pleasure, then it would explain Aeron's whole "That man was drowned" fixation. Maybe his near-death at sea resulted in him rewriting his personality to forget his past with Euron. Maybe by drowning and returning to life, he saw it as overcoming the Euron's torments, pushed farther than Euron ever went. When Euron returns, Aeron starts flashing back to that, and he wants it to go away. Or maybe he was just raped. That works too... Or maybe his head was held underwater while being sodomized?

what do you mean sick pleasure? Its perfectly legitimate strategy for Euron to want his brothers to fear him.

[Dragonstar]

I too associated these passages with signs of abuse... Heartbreaking

[Blue-eyed Onion]

So to do we see that Eur :pirate: n's brothers' fear of him is exceptionally useful to him.

Hindsight. How would he know what would be useful to him or not? and are we to think he's such a long-planning evil genius from childhood? Whatever Euron did to him in childhood, he most likely did it out of sadistic pleasure, which puts him right up there with the likes of joffrey.

[James Arryn]

I thought it was that all brothers were pari passu with respect to order of inheritance.

Yeah, that plus the different cliques that develop around different mothers is what I'm talking about.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. It was expedient to do so, the reason why is irrelevant. The fact that they did is what matter.

No, there is a difference. One is systemic, thus can't be viewed as a reflection of individual rulers, but rather the culture as a whole, whereas the other is individual, and as such speaks to the individual. You can argue what it says if you like, but you can't argue that it's mute.

Edit: my fucking keyboard!

[The Mother of The Others]

how could he not have been molested. look at his behavior. obsessed with drowning, which is just another form of showering. in fact, he's obsessed with washing out the mouth with sea water. See where I'm going with this?

[corbon]

how could he not have been molested. look at his behavior. obsessed with drowning, which is just another form of showering. in fact, he's obsessed with washing out the mouth with sea water. See where I'm going with this?

These things are existing in the Ironborn religion though, and practiced by other priests as well.

I don't think it is reasonable to look at Aeron's religious observances as anything related to past abuse, since these observances exist prior to and outside his youthful experience.

[Child of Spring]

More I read about the Greyjoys on this forum, the creepier they appear. The are one fucked up family, I can't understand why people find them so badass.

[Lyanna Stark]

Same could be said about smells, or certain visual stimuli, and also the trauma could be done by other things Euron might have caused.

Why does it always have to be sexual?

It doesn't *have* to be, but if you look at a combination of

a. Damphair's extremely strong reaction to Euron

b. the strongly misogynist culture of the Iron Islands

c. their contempt for things they consider "female" and "weak"

Rape is a display of power, and the Iron Islanders clearly see male rape as "being used as a woman" and as a sign of ultimate weakness. Euron sexually assaulting Damphair would mean that he excerted tremendous amounts of power over a helpless child and in a way that was utterly shaming and degrading, unlike having the crap beaten out of you which seems to have been pretty common and nothing to bat an eyelid at.

Aeron's fear of Euron seems to be more than just "he beat the crap out of me" but something more visceral, something that affects the very basis of his personality and identity. If Euron went in for undermining his identity as an (male) Ironborn, subjecting him to rape would be one such action.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yeah, that plus the different cliques that develop around different mothers is what I'm talking about. No, there is a difference. One is systemic, thus can't be viewed as a reflection of individual rulers, but rather the culture as a whole, whereas the other is individual, and as such speaks to the individual. You can argue what it says if you like, but you can't argue that it's mute. Edit: my fucking keyboard!

dead is dead

[Brienne the Beauty]

Aeron's fear of Euron seems to be more than just "he beat the crap out of me" but something more visceral, something that affects the very basis of his personality and identity. If Euron went in for undermining his identity as an (male) Ironborn, subjecting him to rape would be one such action.

I can't see what else would have provoked such a reaction, barring something dark and supernatural. Martin is clearly leading us to believe he was abused. I think people don't want to believe it because it undermines Euron as the "cool, take-no-prisoners badass" that some readers think he is. They seem to want to see him as "dark Jack Sparrow." ASOIAF is a lot more horrible than that.

Also I think we are confronting some male hang-ups here. Male readers are not disturbed by seeing the Maid of Tarth's virtue threatened, for instance, as we are familiar with the trope of women being under threat sexually in order to define a villain. We are not at all used to male rape being used to define a villain, especially a villain like Euron, who is equal parts dashing and monstrous.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I can't see what else would have provoked such a reaction, barring something dark and supernatural. Martin is clearly leading us to believe he was abused. I think people don't want to believe it because it undermines Euron as the "cool, take-no-prisoners badass" that some readers think he is. They seem to want to see him as "dark Jack Sparrow." ASOIAF is a lot more horrible than that. Also I think we are confronting some male hang-ups here. Male readers are not disturbed by seeing the Maid of Tarth's virtue threatened, for instance, as we are familiar with the trope of women being under threat sexually in order to define a villain. We are not at all used to male rape being used to define a villain, especially a villain like Euron, who is equal parts dashing and monstrous.

Can we not use the "v-word". People don't believe it because there's not a ton of evidence and pedophiles are usually one dimensional characters, repeat offenders, and exclusive in their lust for children...something we know is untrue of Eur _:pirate: n. In order to reconcile this, I needed to re-frame the act, not as one of compulsion or lust but as one of a strategically ruthless campaign of terror to ensure Eur _:pirate: n's future dominance over his brothers. As did Eur _:pirate: n's sexual encounter with Victarion's salt wife.

That being said, he could have water boarded Aeron, surely that would provoke a similar terror within him. After all, what is dead can never die.

[mcb]

I can't see what else would have provoked such a reaction, barring something dark and supernatural. Martin is clearly leading us to believe he was abused. I think people don't want to believe it because it undermines Euron as the "cool, take-no-prisoners badass" that some readers think he is. They seem to want to see him as "dark Jack Sparrow." ASOIAF is a lot more horrible than that.

Also I think we are confronting some male hang-ups here. Male readers are not disturbed by seeing the Maid of Tarth's virtue threatened, for instance, as we are familiar with the trope of women being under threat sexually in order to define a villain. We are not at all used to male rape being used to define a villain, especially a villain like Euron, who is equal parts dashing and monstrous.

Wrong on so many accounts...

Firstly and mostly: of course Aeron was abused, but there's simply no evidence of a sexual - or not - character of this abuse. What bothers me isn't the suggestion that Euron would be capable of homosexual abuse of his brother, I have no problem with that hypothesis apart from the fact that there is no evidence. You have one thin clue: it was scary. I suggest you see a good horror movie, apparently you've seen none. And, since we're on a GRRM-related forum: I recommend reading "Sandkings". The punchline of this story is, arguably, the creepiest line of prose I've ever read, and yet (mild spoiler) it does not involve any genitalia. People who stubbornly repeat "it was scary, hence it had to be rape" seriously lack for imagination.

Second: you suggest that who disagrees with the "Aeron molested" hypothesis wants to protect his image of Euron being cool. You could not be more wrong if you deliberately tried. I've always considered the Greyjoys collectively as a bunch of assholes, Euron included. I believe I've mentioned this sentiment of mine in more or less every Greyjoy-related thread I've participated in. And simply another rape on Euron's conscience would not make him less cool in my eyes: he's already there.

Third: male hangups? I have to plea not guilty. If I had those, I'd probably have to reject the idea of Renly, Loras or Jon Connington being gay, as we usually don't have homosexuals in heroic fantasy stories; yet I have no problem with accepting gay knights in a story. "

Not disturbed by seeing the Maid of Tarth's virtue threatened"? Who, exactly, do you know of, that reacted this way? Methinks you assume a lot, and with no foundation.

[Fragile Bird]

Can we not use the "v-word". People don't believe it because there's not a ton of evidence and pedophiles are usually one dimensional characters, repeat offenders, and exclusive in their lust for children...something we know is untrue of Eur _:pirate: n. In order to reconcile this, I needed to re-frame the act, not as one of compulsion or lust but as one of a strategically ruthless campaign of terror to ensure Eur _:pirate: n's future dominance over his brothers. As did Eur _:pirate: n's sexual encounter with Victarion's salt wife.

That being said, he could have water boarded Aeron, surely that would provoke a similar terror within him. After all, what is dead can never die.

Yes, he could have "water boarded" Aeron, but IMO he sexually assaulted him, simply because of the fact that GRRM used the kind of language I've heard victims of assault use. Not that it's an obsession of mine or anything, but there have been notorious cases of male-on-male assaults here in Canada that have been examined in excellent documentaries with extensive interviews of victims. The story is repeated over and over again, "I used to lie in bed, shaking with terror and crying, waiting to hear that creak on the stair meaning Fr. X/ the boarding school master/ my father/ the doctor was coming up the stairs" etc etc.

But I think your idea that it was a ruthless campaign of terror and not an act of sexual desire is very believable. Euron is surely at least a borderline psychopath, just like Gregor Clegane. The difference is Clegane just kills people, Euron mind fucks them as well as the physical things he does. Euron certainly kills people too, but Euron gets different pleasures from his actions. Euron enjoys being a puppet master and deeply and grossly humiliating them. Think of the family (sorry, don't have my book) who's castle they capture. First the women have to serve the Iron born, then they have to strip and serve them naked, then the rape starts, all in front of the father who is tied to the chair, watching.

Edit sp

[Fragile Bird]

Wrong on so many accounts...

Firstly and mostly: of course Aeron was abused, but there's simply no evidence of a sexual - or not - character of this abuse. What bothers me isn't the suggestion that Euron would be capable of homosexual abuse of his brother, I have no problem with that hypothesis apart from the fact that there is no evidence. You have one thin clue: it was scary. I suggest you see a good horror movie, apparently you've seen none. And, since we're on a GRRM-related forum: I recommend reading "Sandkings". The punchline of this story is, arguably, the creepiest line of prose I've ever read, and yet (mild spoiler) it does not involve any genitalia. People who stubbornly repeat "it was scary, hence it had to be rape" seriously lack for imagination.

Second: you suggest that who disagrees with the "Aeron molested" hypothesis wants to protect his image of Euron being cool. You could not be more wrong if you deliberately tried. I've always considered the Greyjoys collectively as a bunch of assholes, Euron included. I believe I've mentioned this sentiment of mine in more or less every Greyjoy-related thread I've participated in. And simply another rape on Euron's conscience would not make him less cool in my eyes: he's already there.

Third: male hangups? I have to plea not guilty. If I had those, I'd probably have to reject the idea of Renly, Loras or Jon Connington being gay, as we usually don't have homosexuals in heroic fantasy stories; yet I have no problem with accepting gay knights in a story. "

There are many things in the books that are, of course, open to interpretation. I think GRRM is being as subtle as he needs to be, on the expectation people can read between the lines. You don't need to think it was a sexual assault, that's why the topic is being discussed, there are different interpretations.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yes, he could have "water boarded" Aeron, but IMO he sexually assaulted him, simply because of the fact that GRRM used the kind of language I've heard victims of assault use. Not that it's an obsession of mine or anything, but there have been notorious cases of male-on-male assaults here in Canada that have been examined in excellent documentaries with extensive interviews of victims. The story is repeateded over and over again, "I used to lie in bed, shaking with terror and crying, waiting to hear that creak on the stair meaning Fr. X/ the boarding school master/ my father/ the doctor was coming up the stairs" etc etc. But I think your idea that it was a ruthless campaign of terror and not an act of sexual desire is very believable. Euron is surely at least a borderline psychopath, just like Gregor Clegane.

I don't think that's fair. Gregor seems to reap destruction for the sake of taking joy directly from the suffering of others, any others, for no other purpose

The difference is Clegane just kills people, Euron mind fucks them as well as the physical things he does. Euron certainly kills people too, but Euron gets different pleasures from his actions. Euron enjoys being a puppet master and deeply and grossly humiliating them. Think of the family (sorry, don't have my book) who's castle they capture. First the women have to serve the Iron born, then they have to strip and serve them naked, then the rape starts, all in front of the father who is tied to the chair, watching.

Yes. But Euron's actions don't seem to be random, like a Gregor, a Ramsay, a Rorge, a Joffrey, a Aerys. As in the quote I used earlier, elimination of potential rivals through psychological warfare is fair game, as far as i'm concerned. Particularly in Westeros where curses appear to be real and kin slaying is said to invoke the worst of them.

[Brienne the Beauty]

There are many things in the books that are, of course, open to interpretation. I think GRRM is being as subtle as he needs to be, on the expectation people can read between the lines. You don't need to think it was a sexual assault, that's why the topic is being discussed, there are different interpretations.

My alternate take on it is that Euron's "Crow's Eye" is some sort of dark magic, that he is something other than merely human. Not much evidence for this so far.

[Fragile Bird]

I don't think that's fair. Gregor seems to reap destruction for the sake of taking joy directly from the suffering of others, any others, for no other purpose Yes. But Euron's actions don't seem to be random, like a Gregor, a Ramsay, a Rorge, a Joffrey, a Aerys. As in the quote I used earlier, elimination of potential rivals through psychological warfare is fair game, as far as i'm concerned. Particularly in Westeros where curses appear to be real and kin slaying is said to invoke the worst of them.

Lol, come on, I'm agreeing with you on your major thesis!