Patchface Project

[SkinnyPinkOtter]

I've been wondering if anyone's made a connection between Patchface & the Shrouded Lord. I will read this topic in greater detail and explain my reasoning for the query when I'm less sleepy/lazy, but figured I'd ask that for now.

[Batbob45]

so far Patches has done less bad things than Mel

If he does something bad, it will be big

[ice dragon at winterfell]

I think to understand Patchface you have to think like him. He drowned in the ocean, so in his mindset the ocean is the equilavent of death. Whenever he says "under the sea" what he means is "in the realm of death". When he talks about "fish" or "mermen" (residents of the sea), he means wights or Others (residents of death). So:

"Under the sea the crows are white as snow." = in death, the Night's Watchmen are/become wights.

Similarly:

"Under the sea, men marry fishes." = by "marry" he means man and fish becoming one, i.e. merman. so translation is in death, men become wights.

"Come with me beneath the sea." = come die with me

"I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming." = basically come die with me again, just with more elaborate description of the land of the dead.

In the Red Wedding prophecy, I think "fool's blood" refers to Lord Walder's jester. Remember Catelyn cuts his throat just before she dies.

These two I haven't figure out yet:

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.”

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.”

I have looked at patchface's sayings and think they could apply to the wall.

under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup and all the serving men are crabs:

Davos is sent from the wall by stanis with saan....davos ends up at 3 sisters, eating sisters stew which contains 3 type of crab: red, spider, and conqueror. The Red god, the wight walkers and stannis. Davos is eating with Borrell whose sidgil is a white spider crab. Following this Davos is in

the mermas court.

[Karsa stark]

personally, i think under the sea mean's all sorts of things. sometimes it means death, sometimes the wall and sometimes literally under the sea.

for me the most concerning of his prophecies is:

“I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

i've taken this to mean:

Patchface opening a gate in the wall and leading an army of 'dead things in the water'/white walkers/wights through the wall and into the realms of men. i think this relates to hardhome and that him being at the wall at this time is not merely coincidence.

This will cause much chaos and devostation and is possibly the sculls that mel sees in her vision. The mermaids is either nonesense thrown in there, or relates to the manderleys maybe blowing horns to signal being under attack.

On the wider subject of who patchface actually is, i believe he is a prophet of the drowned god who was resurrected and given the prophetic visions for a specific purpose (leading/helping the others). The whole 'what is dead may never die' slogan is too similar to the wights to be merely coincidence i feel.

[Beorn Snow]

I think to understand Patchface you have to think like him. He drowned in the ocean, so in his mindset the ocean is the equilavent of death. Whenever he says "under the sea" what he means is "in the realm of death". When he talks about "fish" or "mermen" (residents of the sea), he means wights or Others (residents of death). So:

"Under the sea the crows are white as snow." = in death, the Night's Watchmen are/become wights.

Similarly:

"Under the sea, men marry fishes." = by "marry" he means man and fish becoming one, i.e. merman. so translation is in death, men become wights.

"Come with me beneath the sea." = come die with me

"I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming." = basically come die with me again, just with more elaborate description of the land of the dead.

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.”

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.”

Are crabs referring to ice-spiders? Seems similar kind of animals.

Could green and black flame refer to different political factions. Black v.s. Green.

[The Old Gods and the New]

[The Birds] “Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

this prophecy could refer to young griff -the supposed Aegon, as dragons also have scales and can fly like birds griffins- are part birds. It could be an authentication of his identity.

It could also be a prediction of an alliance between the Targeryens and the drowned god/iron islands possibly between Victarion and Dany, as under the sea is where the drowned god deity of the iron islands holds court, so maybe the dragons are going to be allied with the Iron-born.

[LadyLiz]

[The Birds] “Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

I have always taken this one to mean dragons. What can fly and has scales but no feathers.... Dragons.

As for Starfish soup I kind of want that to be the Frey pie the Manderley's make, but the starfish part doesn't match with that.

[soppster91]

Hey, just read this awesome thread and it made myself think. I´ve noticed some things that haven´t been noted by now ( or maybe i just overread them). I´m not sure what most of it means or if it has a meaning at all, yet maybe it helps anyway. Unfortunately i don´t have the books with me at the moment, so i have to recall most of it out of my memories.

- His Age

Patchface was described more as a child than a man (at least thats how i imagened him when i read it). He is described as "soft and round" and more or less evertime replied to as "boy" (at least at the Cressen Prologue). Yet given the fact that his accidents happened years before Roberts Rebellion he has to be somewhat about 30 years old ( it is never described how old he had been when Steffon Baratheon bought him i think, so the exact number is more or less a guess). So does Patchface get older? His face is completely tattoed, so it could conceal the fact that he does not get older. Yet if this was true, what does it mean?

- His Bells and his Walks

Patchface is carrying his belled helmet most of the time we see him. It is also stated that he has a somewhat weird way of walking. Given the fact that is somewhat obese and considered mindless, absolutely no one would consider him a threat. Even if he tries to sneak, his helmet announces his coming. Nothing special so far. But if we assume now that he is somewhat more than it seems, than this could be a point ( a big COULD i have to admit). IF that is somehow relevant, it could mean that Patchface is simply playing his physical inabilities. After all he was considered the most clever boy back when he was bougt. That means, that Patchface is able to move around more or less undisturbed and learn secrets etc.. Again, if all of this is true AND has some sort of meaning, im not sure what to make out of it. The only guess i have so far is connected to the next thing i noticed/ find relevant:

- The Man Who Found Him

When Patchface was found at the coast, the man who found him swore that he was as could as a dead "until dying day". We don´t know how old this man was or what killed him, yet this that this event seemed to have some relevance to him. Which leads me to one question: Did Patches had anything to do with his death?

- His Tattoed Face

His face is tattoed completely in green and red. This conceals his face to some extend yes, but do the colours have a meaning. Red normally means stuff like Blood, Love, but also Danger. In Westeros however, especially around Stannis, it leads to R´hllor.

So what about green? Green is normally attributed to the Nature, or to Life itself. But it is also a colour that is often attributed to poison. And in the world of Westeros, my first guess would be Greenseeing and Green Dreams, which are attributed to the Old Gods.

Again, does this have a meaning? Probably not, at least none that really goes "deeper". My guess would be that if it has a meaning at all, it is something like "caution"/"danger".

- His "Sideway Walk"

Somewhere it is said that he has some sort of a weird "sideway Walk" (at least i found it in the Wiki). I don´t have a clue about this one, except that this is probably how crabs walk. Together with his notion that "all his serving men are crabs" this could mean some thing. But it could also just attibute to his "under the sea" talk.

- "Teaching Stannis to laugh"

When Maester Kressen thinks about Patchface, he is sad that he never taught Stannis how to laugh. Melesandre later tells Jon that she sees him with "bloodred lips" or something similar. And (i hope I`m not mixing the TV Show and the Books here) cutting someones throat is sometimes called a "red smile". So what to make out of it? My only guess would be that Patchface kills Stannis. Is this probable? Not really. But who knows.

I hope this is not to much IF, COULD and WOULD, but i´ve noticed those things and maybe they´ll help us figuring out the mystery.

Great Forum by the way, helped me a great deal figuring out and understand the books in a deeper way. I´m always astonished how awesome Swarm Intelligence ist :)

[Pengwin7]

Just reading through this thread myself.

My own thoughts on Patchface:

1. First & foremost - The actual "Patchface" is NOT the child bought as "jester slave in Volantis".

My theory: He is a spy placed on the shores of Storm's End by _______. All he has to do to hide this is "act half-mad" and "play the fool".

There is an actual line in the prologue by GRRM that say "...the boy died...".

Of course, the way it is written is to be read is that just the character traits of the boy died and came back in another messed-up way.

However... if everybody aboard the ship was lost... then those at Storm's End were only expecting "some fool".

And thus anybody that shows up could be "the new fool".

How fitting for this story, for some character to plant a fool (an expected to arrive fool!) to spy on the Baratheons!!!

2. "Under the sea".

I've always just interpreted this as an upside-down reference point.

Anything "under the sea" is "the land".

Fish might be dragons... and men marrying fish are non-Targs marrying Targs.

3. "Shadows dance".

This is Patchface's first song line... and Shireen says he's been singing this a lot lately.

For me, this is very clearly the white walkers... with shadow simply meaning an "undead" presence and "dance" simply being alive/moving.

For me, the real interesting question is this:
IF Patchface is a spy/plant... who is he... and who planted him?

What we know:

1. Timeline: 278 AC - Death of "all" aboard Windproud at Shipbreaker Bay. The "fool" is found... 3 days later. (THREE DAYS! Enough to seem magical... or god-like)

2. Information: Assumedly by raven, Maester Cressen was informed that Lord Steffon was bringing back "The most splendid fool... only a boy....". The rest of the description might be assigned importance... but really the ship's crash could have wiped out any of his noted characteristics and he could be so messed-up that one would settle for him being messed-up.

It is a perfect ploy to plant a spy because:

1. Cressen expected a new fool. One might not give a second thought that the found fool wasn't the actual fool.

Swallow some sea water.

Crawl up on shore in battered clothes.

Act the part.

Now... who is this person that would have been a "boy" in the year 278 AC?

That's something I want to solve.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

"Under the sea, men marry fishes."

asuming the blackfish is gay, this could anticipate his death. it could be consistent with his refusal to marry in life.

[Azureguy]

I think to understand Patchface you have to think like him. He drowned in the ocean, so in his mindset the ocean is the equilavent of death. Whenever he says "under the sea" what he means is "in the realm of death". When he talks about "fish" or "mermen" (residents of the sea), he means wights or Others (residents of death). So:

"Under the sea the crows are white as snow." = in death, the Night's Watchmen are/become wights.

Similarly:

"Under the sea, men marry fishes." = by "marry" he means man and fish becoming one, i.e. merman. so translation is in death, men become wights.

"Come with me beneath the sea." = come die with me

"I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming." = basically come die with me again, just with more elaborate description of the land of the dead.

In the Red Wedding prophecy, I think "fool's blood" refers to Lord Walder's jester. Remember Catelyn cuts his throat just before she dies.

These two I haven't figure out yet:

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.”

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.”

Seahorses and Mermaids are Velaryon and Manderly. Aurane Waters and Wyman Manderly are going to help Stannis with a fleet.

[jesseg8r]

Does anyone think that Patchface might somehow have been the cause of the shipwreck that drowned Steffon Baratheon, Cassana Estermont, and a hundred men? I sense something sinister under the surface of that character.

[House Hendrix of Rock]

Does anyone think that Patchface might somehow have been the cause of the shipwreck that drowned Steffon Baratheon, Cassana Estermont, and a hundred men? I sense something sinister under the surface of that character.

Sinister yes, but I believe he was revived as that but died as a normal jester.

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

Does anyone think that Patchface might somehow have been the cause of the shipwreck that drowned Steffon Baratheon, Cassana Estermont, and a hundred men? I sense something sinister under the surface of that character.

Steffon seemed nice to him but Patches,being himself,left Steffon and Cassana to die when they could of easily have been saved. Or perhaps with his wit he killed the ships sailor leading the ship to a collision.

[Ashdancer]

Just to belp me find this thread again... won"t appear in subs even though it is starred grrrr. Sorry big time lurker haha. But to all those people who said that the wall might be frozen sea water as evidenced by the drop of water when Bran goes North of the wall... its unlikely. Even if it was seawater once it became unfrozen it would be very difficult to detect salt in the water. The water freezes but the salt doesn't, so its more likely a "real" tear from the giant face.

^information so the post isn't completely for nothing even if it is a basically closed down thread.

[Poppa Chase]

Dark flame told us that the Drowned God is a thrall for the great other. Patchface joined the Drowned God. I'm taking his under the sea as literal because I believe the wights are traveling beneath the waves around Eastwatch.

[Runs With Direwolves]

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs”

Mermen = Others/Wights

Starfish soup = Massacre of the Poor Fellows Order/Stars

Serving men are crabs = giant ice spiders

:eek:

High Septon sends the Poor Fellows and Warrior's Sons north once they hear about the Wall being breached by an Ungodly enemy. Fabled ice spiders make their first appearance to ensnare the Stars. A spider kills by liquidating the insides of their victims, starfish soup.

[The Mother of The Others]

Patch is picking up on strange radio waves when he gets his visions,

so his constant use of the phrase Under the Sea is like his CB radio lingo,

like how George Clooney kept saying Houston In The Blind during his dialogue in the movie

Sandra Bullock In Space.

It's just code for "According to my visions, ..."

There may not be an actual thing he's referring to in code when he says Sea.

Rather, Under the Sea is code for "I'm speaking in code."

Also, Under the Sea is a common theme for school dances, and we have a big Dance coming up soon.

I know. Mind blown, right?

The questions that arise from this are: Who's hosting this Under the Sea dance and who'll be the chapperones (since the Wall seems too tore up to host a social event and the Watch is too extinct to police the punch bowl). Patchface thinks he'll be in attendance, and it's all he thinks... it's his only claim to fame, really, so I trust him to be accurate on this, or else why is he even included in the story. So Shireen is probably Patch's date to the ball. Who will Jon go with? Will Selyse ask Melisandre, trying to make it official between them, only to be rejected? Will Stannis try to go stag? If dragons count as birds, aren't they just bigger versions of Sansa? And if it's an Under the Sea theme, doesn't that almost necessitate a kraken will appear to dance with the dragons and douse their fire by giving them the biggest swirlee ever, grabbing them with its tentacles and plunging them into the ocean to drown. The dead floating on the waves like flotsam with their limbs splayed out would look like so many starfish.

[cgf]

"we will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming"

My take:
The manderlys (mermaids) will be responsible for the wights and others to come south of the wall.

My thinking:
"Into the sea and out again" symbolizing death and undeath. Like the red god's resurrections, or wights.
"Mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming" alluding to the manderly's "blowing" the horn of joramun. The horn that causes the wall to fail need not mean the literal act of blowing an old horn causing the wall to physically come crashing down; but instead being a metaphorical failure of the wall. This failure coming through some action, or perhaps inaction, by the mermaids. Mermaids who are awfully distracted with their Frey pies at the moment, and so may be failing to utilize this navy of white harbor that they've been building to contain the wight coming under the waters?
"Riding Seahorses" may refer to the others also being able to cross beneath the waters as they ride undead(sea)-horses amongst the wight infantrymen.

My initial reaction:
Just starting to put together some of my Patchface interpretations and this one seemed particularly significant due to the use of "we" rather than "they". Could that hint at Patchface already being returned from the dead, either literally, as an Other in disguise, the work of the red god, some other sort of blood magic we don't yet know much, or simply as someone resuscitated from death like the drowned of the Ironborn tradition; or metaphorically, as someone thought to the world to have died but been returned from the waters as a hidden targ/stark/bastard/whomever? It could, but why then doesn't he use we in other songs dealing with undeath?

So my feeling is the use of we in this song is because it is foreshadowing the night watch and those holed up at castle black getting slaughtered by wights and others that appear on the southern side of the wall, taking advantage of unprotected southern fronts of the NW castles that their NK friend secured for them all those years ago. My first guess being that this has to do with the manderly's newly built navy going unutilized. But I suppose there could be a manderly bastard at one of the castles along the wall who somehow allows them through, though this would be a less elegant solution than having the northern lords get wrecked by the other armies while they are obsessed with getting vengeance for the red wedding.

Issues:

What's the point of the wall if the wights and others can just cross the waters? I take this as having to do with either the failure of the night's watch to remain true to their purpose, and/or the lack of a stark in winterfell. Thus either creating a magical opportunity for the Wights and Others to cross water that they could not previously crossed, like undoing the magic that kept coldhands from entering the wall, or simply that the chaos in the north that arises with no Stark to rule them and a NW that has become untrue prevents the northern lords/NW from staying dilligent in protecting their coasts, i.e. with a stark ruling the North ("in winterfell") the manderly navy would be out and operating in the waters that are being used by the dead things beneath them, rather than just sitting idly by while their lord gets his little vengeance on the Freys.

Separate tangent:
...admittedly, that sort of focus on what make a more compelling piece of literature has me hoping to see jon saved from his current state by the Others to revive the ancient pact that was struck in the wake of whatever actually happened during the long night. Allowing Jon to march south with an Other army and ensure that a Stark is always in Winterfell, whatever the true significance of that phrase is. My best guess being something to do with whatever kept the dragons from conquering westeros until after the doom forced them to flee wherever they could.

[Dekar]

Patch is picking up on strange radio waves when he gets his visions,

so his constant use of the phrase Under the Sea is like his CB radio lingo,

like how George Clooney kept saying Houston In The Blind during his dialogue in the movie

Sandra Bullock In Space.

It's just code for "According to my visions, ..."

There may not be an actual thing he's referring to in code when he says Sea.

Rather, Under the Sea is code for "I'm speaking in code."

This is also the way I see it. It seems like the strange radio waves are what everyone who has visions tap into, with more or less success. Top tier interpreters like Jojen make the most of it, while Melisandre really has no clue. Patchface gets it all, but his mind is broken and has a really hard time communicating with normal folks. That's why he fails to save Maester Cressen, who was kind to him, when he goes to confront Melisandre.