Patchface Project

[kane120]

Could Patchface be one of the remaining Children of the Forest? One that's forgotten his way?

The COTF are actually small in stature, i.e. child-like in appearance, so i don't think so.

(off topic) What I want to know is why people think Tyrion will ride a dragon, he has a hard enough time riding horses, even with his special saddle.

[A Winters Summer]

The COTF are actually small in stature, i.e. child-like in appearance, so i don't think so.

(off topic) What I want to know is why people think Tyrion will ride a dragon, he has a hard enough time riding horses, even with his special saddle.

I also would like to know the reason for this, seems completely ridiculous to me.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

This is a good thread, so thank you everyone.

Nothing to add except that Patch's talk of the sea may get noticed more now that Stannis has allied with sea faring Greyjoys....

I wouldn't call it an alliance, but you're right, Stannis holds Theon and Asha captive. PonchoBear and others [myself included] have recently been discussing Patchface in another thread, and the Patchface-Drowned God connection came up. There are definitely some parallels between Patchface's "resurrection" and the religion of the Drowned God, but I've always thought that the connection between the PF/Stannis/Melisandre plotline and the Ironborn plotline was too distant to mean anything. I might have been wrong.

A new thought on [The Flames] “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

I think this may be a reference to the Drowned God. According to the wiki, "The Drowned God himself is believed to have brought flame from the sea". And concerning his priests: "Drowned Men wear roughspun robes of mottled green, grey, and blue, which colors are those of the Drowned God."

The colors are just about right....

Can't really explain why, but that comparison and others on this thread are starting to convince me. I'm not going to rule a Drowned God connection out. But I still feel that the Theon chapter released after ADWD indicated that, if anything, Tree Bran and the Old Gods were going to matter more to Asha, Theon, and Stannis than the Drowned God. Winterfell is a long way from the sea...and so is the Nightfort.

Dont know if this has been tossed out there before but I felt that mel's prophecy about patchface has something to do with the wall and maybe the horn of winter.......his "red lips" that she sees on him...

I don't really have an opinion on Patchface blowing the Horn of Winter. But the red lips are a definite sign. Melisandre observes that she can sense threats to her own person better than anything else. I don't think Patchface is a danger to her specifically, but I think he's a huge threat to Selyse and Shireen. I posted this in the other thread [where I made the case that Patchface is a sympathetic character], but I think Melisandre is scared of him because even she doesn't understand how or why he's still alive, or what the implications/consequences of his survival are. Patchface is going to stay on as Princess Shireen's baby sitter chief companion AT THE NIGHTFORT--I don't think we'll ever get a solid answer about how he predicts events he has no way of knowing about, but I do think we'll see him lose his last shreds of sanity and go berserk.

The Nightfort is a certifiably supernatural place [that magical gate in the well works after how many years?] that has been the site of several notable incidents of people losing their minds. Patchface would be more susceptible to this trend than any other person who will be there, and I think he's finally going to snap. According to one story, there's a demonic monster that enslaves people and drags their souls around for all eternity--we've already seen the legend of the Rat Cook become relevant again, and the legend of the Night's King might become important again for a lot of reasons. My prediction is that, by the end of the series, there will be either be another horror story about the Nightfort, or the story of "the thing that came in the night" will have a new coda.

[Pod The Impaler]

[My bold above, see below for why] I had thought they sounded like Deep Ones too,

here is the description of them from HP Lovecraft's 'The Shadow over Innsmouth':

Quote

"I think their predominant color was a greyish-green, though they had white bellies. They were mostly shiny and slippery, but the ridges of their backs were scaly. Their forms vaguely suggested the anthropoid, while their heads were the heads of fish, with prodigious bulging eyes that never closed. At the sides of their necks were palpitating gills, and their long paws were webbed. They hopped irregularly, sometimes on two legs and sometimes on four. I was somehow glad that they had no more than four limbs. Their croaking, baying voices, clearly used for articulate speech, held all the dark shades of exp

ression which their staring faces lacked ... They were the blasphemous fish-frogs of the nameless design - living and horrible."

From the wikipedia entry on them the following might have bearing on aSoIaF:

• Deep Ones are immortal
  
• opposed by mysterious beings known as the Old Gods
  
• there is a bargain between Deep Ones and humans
  
• the human's lot is to allow mating between the two, creating hybrids
  
• Deep One hybrid offspring are born with the appearance of a normal human being, the individual will eventually transform into a Deep One, gaining immortality
  
• they serve Cthulhu - ie the Drowned God
  

Is Patchface one of these hybrids? It would explain this: [The Fishes] “Under the sea, men marry fishes.”

I've also always had the impression that he, in some way, caused the shipwreck, where he drowned, intentionally.

Actually, there is a reference to men on the Sisters looking a bit hybrid-ish. The whole time Davos was there in ADWD, I thought the place creepy.

And I have also considered that Patchface somehow was involved in the Windproud sinking. It's a small probability, but there nonetheless.

What I do not get is that if Melisandre sees Patchface as evil, why is he still in Stannis' service at all ? Why was he brought from Dragonstone ?

Or has she only begun to see POatchface as evil since they arrived at the Wall ?

My suspicion is that at the Wall, Patchface may inadvertently or deliberately be involved in Shireen and Selyse turning to the Others. They're in the Nightfort ? That's bad news. The watch is keeping some wights in the ice cells for study? More bad news. Shireen has greyscale and may be stone man-ish as a result ? Yet more bad news.

[KOM]

Crackpot: "Under the sea" prophecies are just gibberish. The two most obviously correct ones: Shadows dancing, and RW, are not prefaced by the signature phrase "Under the sea."

"I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming."

That phrase maybe becomes something about Velaryons, Manderlys, etc.

It's just a possibility. But with so many Patchface sayings, it's possible GRRM is signalling that some phrases are more prophetic than others.

[ShakenNotLannistirred]

A few lines from patchface:

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.”

Green and blue and black is an obvious reference to the drowned gos, as we see in : Drowned Men wear roughspun robes of mottled green, grey, and blue, the colors of the Drowned god.

That prophecy refers to smoke literally rising in bubbles, contrary to popular belief. When we were in book 5 and we went down they Rhonye with Tyrion, to The Sorrows.

The following is from about Garin " the shrouded lord" mentioned on the Shy Maid.

Prince Garin led 250, 000 men to their deaths in an attempt to stop the Valyrians. He was named Garin the Great for giving the Valyrians pause.

According to legend, the men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and mocked him as he called upon Mother Rhoyne to destroy them. That very night the waters rose and drowned the invaders of Chroyane. From that they, the spirits of the fallen conquerors remained beneath the waters, and their breath rises from the murk to make the fogs that infest the ruined city. It is also belived by some that Garin rose from his watery grave and became the Shrouded Lord.

As we can see here, as legend has it, the drowned men's breath rises up in bubbles to become the very mist that haunts the land. We also have mention of a shadowy creature called the shrouded lord that lives underwater.

It is my belief that the drowned god and the shrouded lord both have a connection. Since most of us believe Patchface to be a tool of the drowned god. Patchface is simply stating facts to him. And the fact is that hundreds of thousands of people are underwater right now making mist. Drowned men, if you will.

This also leads me to believe that the 'dead things in the water' written about near hardhome has something to do with this. The dead things in the water might very well be these drowned souls coming to service the great other aka the drowned god.

There is also a connection to greyscale. Stone, ice and grey.

Rolly Duckfield likes yet another version of the tale, in which the Shrouded Lord was a statue at first, and a grey woman from the fog kissed life to it with lips as cold as ice.

Grey, cold, ice, stone. These sound like the tools of the great other.

Now, Melisandre in her flames sees Patchface with "blood on his lips". This I believe alludes to Patchface talking Shireen into drowning and possibly returning as an agent of the drowned god/ the great other.

I believe the shrouded lord and his minions haven't been seen for the last time. With a little help from Patchface, they might just wreck hardhome, for the second time mind you. As noted in:

"I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

An obvious reference to Patchface starting the march into the realm of the undead (underwater) and out again, like he has returned from underwater to be a tool of the drowned god.

[Beric Zoolander]

I always thought it was interesting the parallels between Melisandre seeing her visions through flames and Patchface seeing his visions through water or "under the sea". That with her obvious fear of him makes me think he is way more than he seems, and may as others have definitely pointed out have some deep connection to the Drowned God.

I always wondered if he was in fact stating that through water he sees these visions.

[Cas Stark]

I always thought it was interesting the parallels between Melisandre seeing her visions through flames and Patchface seeing his visions through water or "under the sea". That with her obvious fear of him makes me think he is way more than he seems, and may as others have definitely pointed out have some deep connection to the Drowned God.

I always wondered if he was in fact stating that through water he sees these visions.

Maybe, but have we seen any evidence that the drowned god has power? We know that R'hollor has power, wherever it comes from, because Thoros can raise people from the dead and everyone who is a devote of the red god sees true things in the flames. We know that the old gods/children have power from wargs and the weirwood visions. But, other than Patchface's ramblings, is there anything else in the text that shows the drowned god has similar powers?

[Beric Zoolander]

Maybe, but have we seen any evidence that the drowned god has power? We know that R'hollor has power, wherever it comes from, because Thoros can raise people from the dead and everyone who is a devote of the red god sees true things in the flames. We know that the old gods/children have power from wargs and the weirwood visions. But, other than Patchface's ramblings, is there anything else in the text that shows the drowned god has similar powers?

Beyond Patchface having some prophetic sayings...no not really. I mean the only vision into the Drowned God beyond that is with Aeron Greyjoy, perhaps we'll find more in the coming books. The Drowned God has never been touched upon too much. I guess in a similar fashion to the Seven its someone worshipped but has yet to show true power from belief.

EDIT: The Drowned God is quite old though, so it wouldn't be surprising if it carried the same weight of power.

[a white raven]

This is a great thread! Here's my take:

[The Feast] “Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs”

**I like the elusion to the realm cannibalizing itself

[The Crow] “The crow, the crow,” Patchface cried when he saw Jon. “Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

**If you take “under the sea” to be a reference to death, this could mean that the “crows” (Night’s Watch men) protect the realm in life, under the sea (in death), it is the “white as snow” (wights) who protect the realm. What they protect the realm against I couldn’t say, that's a different thread ;)

[Away, Away] “Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.” He took the little princess by one hand and drew her from the room, skipping.

**come die with me

[The March] Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

**those who follow me/head my warnings will survive the impending doom/death, I will show you the way because I have survived death before.

[The Fishes] “Under the sea, men marry fishes.” Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. “They do, they do, they do.”

**again if you equate “under the sea” to “death”, then by extending the metaphore, “fishes" are the things that live in death, or “wights”. By saying that “in death” men marry wights , he could mean that men become one with wights in death, or simply put: that dead men turn into wights.

[The Birds] “Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

** The birds with scales instead of feathers sounds like dragons to me. They fly (like birds), have scales instead of feathers, and can swim (under the sea), or at least dive into the sea to catch fish, I believe they could swim.

[The Flames] “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

**sounds like volcanic activity to me, an elusion to Valyria. Maybe saying that that “something is brewing in Valyria” As to the green, blue and black...still trying to figure that out.

[The Dead] “In the dark the dead are dancing.”

** dead men rise as wights

[The Shadows] "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord."

**seems to be a warning to Stannis that those shadow babies he makes with Melisandre will take a lasting toll on him. “shadows come to dance/stay” could mean the shadows come to do your bidding, but they do not leave, they linger and feed off of your soul (light)

[blood & Chains] "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

• This has been well established as predicting the Red Wedding. Rob (“king’s blood”), and his naïve family/subjects will be killed. Catelyn will slit the throat of a jester Aegon Frey (“fool’s blood”). The bride is still deflowered (“blood on a maiden’s thigh”), but her bridegroom Edmure (“the bridegroom”) and the other survivors (“guests”) where held imprisoned (“chains)
  

**Red Wedding for sure

[Aerys Frost]

Regarding what Patchface says about the flames:

He says they burn the different colors and what-not. Later, Stannis is discussing the dragon glass found on Dragonstone (with Jon?) He says most is black but he's seen it in these different colors.

I reallllly wish I had page numbers to reference, but I believe it's in SoS.

There could be a connection here. The caves beneath Dragonstone would literally be under the sea!

[Cersei of the Kingsguard]

I think when Patchface says "under the sea" he means "far away". Look at this line:

“Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.” He took the little princess by one hand and drew her from the room, skipping.

This doesn't look like a prophecy to me, just him telling Shireen they should go away now (do I remember correctly that this happens when Shireen and Patchface have just been told to leave the room?). "Come with me beneath the sea" is Patchface's way of saying "C'mon, lets go somewhere else" (away, away, away). Things that happen "under the sea", then, are things that happen somewhere else, far away, perhaps with the additional meaning of "beneath the surface", i.e. where you can't see.

So with that meaning the prophecies become:

“The crow, the crow,” Patchface cried when he saw Jon. “Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

= Far away there's a place where crows are white as snow. True enough, there are white crows in the Citadel (or were they ravens?) and beyond the Wall the Brothers of the Night's Watch (=crows) are being turned to wights.

“Under the sea, men marry fishes.” Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. “They do, they do, they do.”

= Far away men marry fishes. Could be a reference to Asha's wedding, where her groom wed a seal that was standing in for her. (Well, maybe it wasn't standing, but, you know.)

“Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

= Far away there are things that fly like birds, but they have scales instead of feathers. Tha dragons, obviously.

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs”

= Far away the mermen feast on starfish soup, etc. Could be a reference to the Frey pies or Davos, I don't have any particular theory about this one.

Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

= With my interpretation of the meaning of "under the sea", this one becomes: We will march to a place that is far away and then return. There we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming. When Patchface says that he will lead the expedition, I think he means that it's a fool's errand and/or whoever will lead it is a fool. The talk about seahorses and mermaids is pretty mysterious. One possibility is that, since the place far away in this case is beyond the Wall, the mermaids mean the creatures that inhabit that place = the Others. They will ride wightified horses and the Others will announce their coming with horns. Another possibility is that seahorses are ships and mermaids blowing seashells means the howl of the winds that bring their ships back to the Wall.

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

= Far away there's a place where smoke rises in bubbles, etc. I think this refers to Valyria and the flames are the glass candles, as others have suggested before in this thread. Patchface is saying that Valyrian magic is making a comeback.

Then there are the prophecies that are not happening "under the sea", or at least Patchface doesn't say so:

“In the dark the dead are dancing.”

"The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord."

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

The middle one fits with my theory well. It's not happening far away, because Mel the shadowbinder is right there. The Red Wedding prophecy does not seem to fit, because it clearly happened somewhere where Stannis &co weren't. I'm not sure how significant the lack of the "under the sea" line is, though - could be that Patchface just couldn't make it rhyme, so he left it out. :devil: Or could be that the way Patchface sees it is that the RW didn't happen "somewhere far away where you can't see" because Mel in her way could see it, and perhaps even had a hand in bringing it about.

I have to confess I don't remember where in the books Patchface utters the third of these, so I can't say for sure if it fits or not. If they're already at the Wall, then the reference is most likely to the wights. Another super-creepy possibility that comes to mind is that Patchface is talking about himself and Shireen, both dead in their own way.

What if Patchface is some kind of a vampire, and he had a hand in sinking Steffon Baratheon's ship, because he had already eaten everyone on board and had to hide the evidence? :bawl:

finally someone that made sense . my idea was here (as in westeros/essos ) - my tought was he considered him self under the sea ...

others also tracked it as "in land of the dead" - makes sense - thats kinda far away ....

tnx for this was sitting whole day looking for someone to crack it - urs so far makes most sense to me

edit :

“The crow, the crow,” Patchface cried when he saw Jon. “Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

= Far away there's a place where crows are white as snow. True enough, there are white crows in the Citadel (or were they ravens?) and beyond the Wall the Brothers of the Night's Watch (=crows) are being turned to wights.

edit 2 :

could be about Oldtown - remeber sheeren visiting measter to show her white raven think pf was there

[MissingNo]

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.”

This is a possible reference to the tptwp prophecy

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt. The smoke is right there, the sea itself is salt water and flames burning black and blue could equate to darkness.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I don't think that the Drowned God is a parallel to the Great Other. On the contrary, he appears to parallel Rh'llor, with the Storm God as the parallel of the Great Other. Here is the textual evidence:

“The Drowned God brought flame from the sea, and sailed the world with fire and sword.”

“The Drowned God is said to have made the ironborn to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and to make their names known in fire and blood and song”

“The Storm God has warred with the Drowned God for a thousand thousand years.” (Much as the Great Other is alleged to be at war with R'hllor)

“[The Grey King – Champion of the Drowned God] warmed his hall with [the Naga’s] living fire. However, when the Grey King died, the Storm God drowned out her fire and the sea took the throne”

-Priests of the Drowned God and Priests of R'hllor engage in ritualistic resurrections. Their religious beliefs are both tied to rebirth.

The blue and green flame quote above also seems to support this, and it adds some context regarding the garb of the Drowned God's priests.

[Shebara]

I think the colours could perhaps be the colours of the eyes of dragonriders...Tyrion has green/black eyes...Jon Snow blue eyes...??

And certainly the mermaid is Manderly

As to Patchface he certainly has a strong connection with Shireen...she has a patched face...greyscale a mark of death...and his name Patchface means that those 2 belong together in a way

[Roadside Rose]

Patchface Prophecies & Blackwater

[Winterlord]

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

I had been assuming this, in part, referred to the glass candles. I know the wiki says the at least a green and a black one are currently burning.

[AegonSnow]

IMO, Patchface is the Melisandre but for the Great OTHER, the enemy of R'hollr

[carriesanaxe]

I'm new here, so I apologize for Dragging out this old thread again. What I take away from Patch faces "Mermen dine on starfish soup."Is less concrete but I still have not seen it here yet.

It seems to represent a conflict between the drowned God and the Faith of the seven. There are plenty of seven ,legged starfish. Which would represent the seven-point star. As Aaron damp hair will be a PO V character, and the new militant Faith has yet to do anything major other than try Cierci, I think this is a possibility.

The less likely interpretation of starfish, could mean a religious member of house Tully?

(Please excuse typos as I type with voice dictation.)

[Stephen Singh]

[The Flames] “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

I think this is a reference to tyrions chain and the wildfire.