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[TV Spoilers] Large Battles


Alvyn Sharp

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Oxcross is also in, but we don't know how much of the actual battle we'll see.

Since it's not described in the books, I assume they just skip it, and spend the money on 'Blackwater' episode instead.

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Battle scenes are GODDAMN expensive. If you go read some of the production journals on S1, the amount of time, effort and money it takes to do a single exterior shot or outdoor scene is ungodly.

(Footage not found. Sorry- I'll keep checking where I read this one)

For instance, filming the 10-second scene where they find Arya on the Kingsroad after she runs away from Joffrey's mauling took a whole night and almost killed a few extras and Sean Bean. Coordinating a camp scene or battle aftermath takes hours, sometimes days of preparation and coordination. A battle is even worse; you need hundreds of extras and usually just as many crew to keep them in costume. You have the weather to deal with, and can waste days of filming and planning if rain comes through and threatens to electrocute the crew. Then the main cast needs hours for makeup and prep, along with dozens of extras who need to get in costume, taught their ever-changing blocking, and wait for everyone to get in place for a single take.

Now put all that crap together into several more takes, resets, reapplying of blood/gore/makeup and Richard Madden's hair product, and you're at least a hundred thousand dollars spent in a day between transportation, ruined equipment, insurance, salary and manhours. Even "Braveheart," notorious for it's huge budget and scale, fudged a ton of their scenes by adding extra cameras and reusing shots from multiple angles, even between different battles. "LotR" had the benefit of CGI duplication and body capture to copy regiments of soldiers and turn them into armies; this still cost millions.

Premium cable is notable for having done plenty of quality shows in ancient and medieval settings, complete with battle scenes on minimal budgets, compared to the financing available to movie studios. "Rome," "The Tudors," "The Borgias," have managed to pull of at least one major battle a season, without breaking the bank or sacrificing suspension of disbelief in the process. If "Blackwater" is the only real battle we get, I'm fine with that.

Keep in mind that Whispering Woods didn't make any POV in the first place; the only thing we missed out on in S1 was Tyrion's big day in the sun, and we'll get that in "Blackwater." I'm fine with one big battle a season, especially if ASoS stays split into two seasons.

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They did say there would be more battles this season.

But like warthog painfully implies, huge battle scenes are extremely expensive.

Honestly this is one of my few gripes with the show, when I hear them talk of tens of thousands of Dothraki and then I see maybe 30 of them max on horseback. Never seeing more than what appears to be 50 armored knights.

Then I think of scenes from Kingdom of Heaven where you just see hundreds of thousands of knights and it looks so amazing.

Oh well, this is the best we can ever hope for in terms of ASOIAF adaptations, I'll take it.

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They did say there would be more battles this season.

But like warthog painfully implies, huge battle scenes are extremely expensive.

Honestly this is one of my few gripes with the show, when I hear them talk of tens of thousands of Dothraki and then I see maybe 30 of them max on horseback. Never seeing more than what appears to be 50 armored knights.

Then I think of scenes from Kingdom of Heaven where you just see hundreds of thousands of knights and it looks so amazing.

Oh well, this is the best we can ever hope for in terms of ASOIAF adaptations, I'll take it.

It's just CGI, and varying levels of it. "Kingdom of Heaven" took about the same software and rendering level as LotR, and simply threw a few more layers of dust and sand on top of everything to make it look a little less sharp and real. More bang-for-the-buck that way.

I don't mind CGI if it's not obvious. The less clear, sharp and fancy it is in TV or movies, the more natural and gritty it looks. One of the aesthetic advantages that "Star Wars" has on "Star Trek" is how the crew made more-with-less by making things look gross and filthy. Starfleet in 1964 was clean, sterlie, and plastic. Tatooine (despite being more expensive to film), looked nasty-ass and sandy, and more people identified with it as the default setting than an idealized scientific starship.

I really didn't notice The Wall, the Red Keep, or other exterior CGI stuff in S1. I knew it was fake, but it was blurry and hazy, and didn't look so obvious. If they resort to a bit of replication and copypasta CGI to make a few second-shots of battles look bigger, I really don't mind. The battles and warfare don't matter that much; the characters, and their reactions to what happens after those battles, do.

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CHN, you're referring to Massive (http://www.massivesoftware.com), a piece of software originally written for LOTR that does more than just "adding extra people", it simulates life, behavior, and decision-making with some pretty advanced AI algorithms. Not saying that HBO isn't using it, because they might be, but it's an extremely expensive, "industrial strength" program that would probably be overkill for the effects they need to achieve. I'd honestly be okay with some copy/pasting of simple CGI armies if it meant that the close-up battles of real people look good.

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i would think cgi would cover it rather than 100s of extras

"Massive" is exactly what I was referring to, but the software has a pretty steep price for both a license and royalites from that license. Also, the actual property is very limited in how many programmers and graphic artists are familiar with it.

There are many duplicates of this software, but "Massive" is known for having the best-experienced and -specialized designers and programmers. "GoT" could spend half its budget on the software and it's Kiwi code monkeys, and wind up with a lesser product, if people and critics were expecting acting and production values.

Peter Jackson's return to "The Hobbit" is only possible because he is familiar with the CG programmers, artists, prop specialists, WETA workshop, composer Howard Shore, his writers (the *INCOMPARABLE STEPHEN MOFFAT), and every other staffer he's worked with in the five years of making "LotR." "Massive" may not appear in "An Unexpected Journey," but will easily come back for the Battle of Five Armies in (pt. II, "There and Back Again).

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I think that was partially because they realized how silly it would look on TV for a dwarf to be successful in battle against guys who are over 6 feet, and killing horses.

Another reason I'm glad they aged up Jon and Robb. It'll look even more silly on TV to see the Night's Watch and the Northern Army being led by 14 year olds. In a book it's one thing, but the visual medium is another.

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The new FX company has Massive, FWIW. Doesn't guarantee they will use it, but it is available to them and they have experience using it. They've even written custom stuff on top of it for one of their projects, can't recall what it was off-hand. If I had to guess, I do think we will see it used in Blackwater as well as a lot of CG for ships, water, fire, and of course

wildfire!

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I think that was partially because they realized how silly it would look on TV for a dwarf to be successful in battle against guys who are over 6 feet, and killing horses

.

I didn't say he couldn't be beaten to a pulp. Just that I didn't like the fact he was knocked out [if I remember correctly] before the battle even started.

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