What to Make of His Legacy? (Spoilers)

[Drowsey Dragon]

One of the most tragic characters so far to me has to be Robb. So much was put on his young shoulders way to soon. I find it very difficult to form a clear cut opinion of him.

I think these are the main areas to look at when juding him:

Miltarily:

Clearly he had a keen military mind and courage. He never lost a battle and captured the Kingslayer in his first major battle. He may even have been a military genious, but now it is impossible to know. On a scale of 1 to 10, a 10.

Diplomacy:

He was a clear novice. First, he could not convince his Aunt to let him cross through the vale, all he did was disptach crows. Why not send his Mother back or his Uncle? Or march his army there and demand an audience with her? How about forming an alliance with either Stannis or Renly? Or even exploring the benefits of doing so? But his biggest failing here was how he handled Jamies capture. He had all of the momentum and leverage at this moment. Jaime was the key to ending the war, bringing back Sansa (Arya was on the run by now). Yes he wants revenge for his fathers death, and there was still Renlys host and Stannis's to destroy the Lannisters or weaken them to the point where Robb could then avenge his father by sacking Kings Landing at a later point. How he handled Jaime also aliented one of his main allies who he later beheaded and led to his mother eventually freeing him, which was insanity. Again this whole episode was a disaster. 1 on a scale of 10.

Judgment:

Another major mistake was becoming the "King of the North" in the first place. I cannot imagine Ned would ever have done the same in a similar situation. Robb had so many options at his disposal and squandered them. The original point of the war was freeing his sisters and crushing the Lannisters and everyone around him and Robb himself lost sight of this.

Marrying the daughter of a weak house alligned with the Lannisters was his biggest failure here. He betrayed his vow to marry one of Lord Frays daughters. This act was his eventual doom and a shame on both houses. Yes he is young, but he lacked vision of what this act would mean to the future of the North and all its implications. He also rejected the wise council of his mother regarding Theon. This made no sense at all while the war was going on and was the first bad decision among many that he would make.

Trusting his Dire Wolfs instincts. He repeatedly did this, as he did with his mothers most of the time.

Walking into his own assasintation. He never even prepared any precautions, just put blind faith into a sick old man he had betrayed and dishonored and led to his death. 1 on a scale of 10.

Overall, He was the first King of the North in over 300 years, even though he died shortly there after. How will this rank in the Lore of Westeros? Was he a failure? Is it fair to say he is at fault for the death of his house if this is what happens? I loved Robb as a character, but his failings were tragic and easily he could have had a much different fate.

[Lady Eireanne Stark]

Firstly, great post!! :)

I think Robb was just way too young for the task at hand. He was just too inexperienced and leant heavily on the advice of his counsel and you are right he completely lost touch with the original purpose of marching to King's Landing.

Unfortunately the Starks, with perhaps the exception of Arya, have too much of a sense of 'honour' and 'duty' and though these are admiral traits they do tend to get in the way of things that, though sometimes unsavory, just need to be done.

When you look at Joffery you could say he is young too but he has many people around him who have no real sense of honour and 'doing the right thing' and have no back-off from taking the dark path. Then there is Stannis who has 'honour' but is hard as a rock and unreasonable and can hold his own counsel and make his own descisons, well until the Red woman comes into it. Renly was just a flamboyant fool and I knew he wouldn't make it far into this war!! :)

Robb's death wasn't such a big shock to me, just the way it was done and his complete stupidity at not making sure he was protected when going to the wedding.

All in all I think Robb was a good guy just totally inexperienced.

As for the Westerlings? I think that was a very well thought out plan by the Lannisters!

[The Roaring Bear]

One of the most tragic characters so far to me has to be Robb. So much was put on his young shoulders way to soon. I find it very difficult to form a clear cut opinion of him.

I think these are the main areas to look at when juding him:

Miltarily:

Clearly he had a keen military mind and courage. He never lost a battle and captured the Kingslayer in his first major battle. He may even have been a military genious, but now it is impossible to know. On a scale of 1 to 10, a 10.

Absolutely agree here. I think it is also worth noting how he had planned to approach Tywin's march west up until it was ruined by his uncle Edmure. He laid out a brilliant strategy, showing how he was planning several moves ahead and not just crossing each bridge as he got to them.

Diplomacy:

He was a clear novice. First, he could not convince his Aunt to let him cross through the vale, all he did was disptach crows. Why not send his Mother back or his Uncle? Or march his army there and demand an audience with her? How about forming an alliance with either Stannis or Renly? Or even exploring the benefits of doing so? But his biggest failing here was how he handled Jamies capture. He had all of the momentum and leverage at this moment. Jaime was the key to ending the war, bringing back Sansa (Arya was on the run by now). Yes he wants revenge for his fathers death, and there was still Renlys host and Stannis's to destroy the Lannisters or weaken them to the point where Robb could then avenge his father by sacking Kings Landing at a later point. How he handled Jaime also aliented one of his main allies who he later beheaded and led to his mother eventually freeing him, which was insanity. Again this whole episode was a disaster. 1 on a scale of 10.

This is where we disagree.

1. Anyone wanting to get to the Vale would need to cross through the Mountains of the Moon, not an easy task for a small party, and a small party was all he would be able to afford in order to send an envoy to his aunt Lysa.

2. It would have been foolish of him to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya (Let us remember that he was not aware that Arya was out and about on her own here). Jaime was a military commander, someone who almost killed Robb on the battlefield, to trade him for a couple of girls who would give no support whatsoever to the fight (except maybe allow Robb an easier sleep knowing his sisters were safe) would have been stupid and selfish (One of the main reasons I was angry at Catelyn (though I think her very bright herself)).

3. He did send his mother to try and seek help from Renly and Stannis so...?

4The issue with the Karstarks was entirely Catelyn's fault, I cant even begin to see how you would blame Robb for this one. He was handling it as it needed to be handled up until his mother through a wrench in his tire and caused Karstark to go loopy and betray his king. Robb's hands were bound here and he has to do what he did or else he would A. Be seen as soft (something the northmen do not respect or follow), or B. Kill his own mother.

Judgment:

Another major mistake was becoming the "King of the North" in the first place. I cannot imagine Ned would ever have done the same in a similar situation. Robb had so many options at his disposal and squandered them. The original point of the war was freeing his sisters and crushing the Lannisters and everyone around him and Robb himself lost sight of this.

1. The original point of the war was not freeing his sisters.

2. I do believe Ned would have done the same... Oh wait he did do the same in Robert's rebellion only instead of allowing people to proclaim himself king, he supported his friend Robert int he matter... so again I dont see where you're coming from here. Not to mention just because Ned may or may not have done something does not make it right or wrong.

3. The reason why Robb became king in the north was because there was no clear call on who was the rightful heir to the throne (Dont forget, we the reader know more than the characters). Robb, like his father before him held honor in high regard, I do not doubt for a second that once the Lannisters were out of the picture that he would be willing to lay his crown aside to whoever proved to be the rightful king, but only held it as a "Fuck... shits gone to hell, my people need a leader so I'll be it until we know what's really going on" type role.

Marrying the daughter of a weak house alligned with the Lannisters was his biggest failure here. He betrayed his vow to marry one of Lord Frays daughters. This act was his eventual doom and a shame on both houses. Yes he is young, but he lacked vision of what this act would mean to the future of the North and all its implications. He also rejected the wise council of his mother regarding Theon. This made no sense at all while the war was going on and was the first bad decision among many that he would make.

1. I agree that betraying his oath to Lord Frey was a mistake. That being said, Lord Frey had essentially put a knife to his throat and forced him to make the agreement (he did this by possibly not allowing Robb' army to cross, despite being a bannerman of Hoster/Edmure Tully who were clearly aligned with Robb). One can argue that a contract made under duress is not a valid contract. Frey was powerful though and it was foolish for Robb to betray him... but then he is human, and he is only a boy. Mistake yes, but understandable, not damning (We see it as damning because we know the outcome which is not fair to judge it on).

2. In regards to Theon: A) His oldest friend who had fought bravely alongside of him every step of the way, why not trust him (again, we can not blame him just because we know the outcome). B) Disregarding his mother's advice? Like himself, his mother was human, and he knew she did not trust Theon in much the same way that she did not trust and despised Jon Snow. Both of whom were his best friends. It is understandable that he may have seen her council as being bias here (which it later turned out to be in the case of Jon Snow when he mentioned that he was going to make Jon an heir to Catelyn's great disaproval, based solely on her hatred of the boy who wasnt born from her cunt).

Trusting his Dire Wolfs instincts. He repeatedly did this, as he did with his mothers most of the time.

Walking into his own assasintation. He never even prepared any precautions, just put blind faith into a sick old man he had betrayed and dishonored and led to his death. 1 on a scale of 10.

This was upsetting. The second Grey Wind started acting weird I knew something was up, but then I know I'm reading a book and that there is something special about the wolves, so instantly thats my go to right there. Truth is however, the wolves were known to be a bit on the aggressive side and Robb really wanted to make the union work. Again, understandable, a 1 out of 10 is harsh, I'd say a 5 out of 10

Overall, He was the first King of the North in over 300 years, even though he died shortly there after. How will this rank in the Lore of Westeros? Was he a failure? Is it fair to say he is at fault for the death of his house if this is what happens? I loved Robb as a character, but his failings were tragic and easily he could have had a much different fate.

I dont think he will be seen as a failure in Westeros.

He was unbeaten in battle, and one of the greatest military and political minds of the age (Tywin Lannister) feared him so much that he had to plot to have him assassinated through breaking guest rights (unheard of) in order to get rid of him. I believe he will be seen as a great hero cut short through dirty tactics because they were the only type that could bring him down, because -thats- how capable he was.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Medievalist great points. You make well thought out and convincing arguments. I will quickly respond on a few points of disagreement.

1. Anyone wanting to get to the Vale would need to cross through the Mountains of the Moon, not an easy task for a small party, and a small party was all he would be able to afford in order to send an envoy to his aunt Lysa.

While I agree it would be difficult, it certainly is possible. Catalyn made it through the Mountain of the moon before with a very small host. I would also think she would be able to get assistance from Nestor Royce at the Gates of the Moon. This was never attempted Raven I may be wrong here, but I recall he was upset Lysa was not aiding in the war effort.

2. It would have been foolish of him to trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya (Let us remember that he was not aware that Arya was out and about on her own here). Jaime was a military commander, someone who almost killed Robb on the battlefield, to trade him for a couple of girls who would give no support whatsoever to the fight (except maybe allow Robb an easier sleep knowing his sisters were safe) would have been stupid and selfish (One of the main reasons I was angry at Catelyn (though I think her very bright herself)).

I agree if you want to continue the war. I felt it was far smarter to make the trade on the condition of the end of hostilities and no allegiance to Joff, This was the moment to do it. Jaimes father and Cercei would do anything to get him back. I also think Catelyn was very smart, but too often overcome by grief and emotion.

3. He did send his mother to try and seek help from Renly and Stannis so...?

Aid yes, but not an alliance due to the fact he would not swear fealty because he wanted to be King of the North. I believe this was a major mistake. Either Renly or Stannis should be King, To Robb all that should have mattered was the downfall of the Lannisters.

4 The issue with the Karstarks was entirely Catelyn's fault, I cant even begin to see how you would blame Robb for this one. He was handling it as it needed to be handled up until his mother through a wrench in his tire and caused Karstark to go loopy and betray his king. Robb's hands were bound here and he has to do what he did or else he would A. Be seen as soft (something the northmen do not respect or follow), or B. Kill his own mother

I agree it was Cats fault. My point was if he had made the trade initially, Jaime never would have been freed later on by Cat. Lord Karstark could not have been appeased, but could not have caused damage once the trade was made because it would have ended hostilities for the time being. They could avenge Karstarks sons death at a later point, as well as Robbs fathers death. He could have used this as leverage with Lord Karstark if he traded Jaime initiilly.

1. The original point of the war was not freeing his sisters

Correct it was to Free Ned, but again it never involved becoming King in the North. Once he died, the girls became the focus along with destroying the Lannististers.

2. I do believe Ned would have done the same... Oh wait he did do the same in Robert's rebellion only instead of allowing people to proclaim himself king, he supported his friend Robert int he matter... so again I dont see where you're coming from here. Not to mention just because Ned may or may not have done something does not make it right or wrong.

I don't recall Ned ever declaring himself King of the North during the rebellion? He just wanted to be Lord of the North and Winterfell. I think it matters what Ned would have done, because Robb would want to do right by his father.

3. The reason why Robb became king in the north was because there was no clear call on who was the rightful heir to the throne (Dont forget, we the reader know more than the characters). Robb, like his father before him held honor in high regard, I do not doubt for a second that once the Lannisters were out of the picture that he would be willing to lay his crown aside to whoever proved to be the rightful king, but only held it as a "Fuck... shits gone to hell, my people need a leader so I'll be it until we know what's really going on" type role.

I agree here initially, his people needed a leader, but he was already there leader as Leige Lord.His focus should have been on forging an alliance with either Renly or Stannis and finishing off the Lannisters.

1. I agree that betraying his oath to Lord Frey was a mistake. That being said, Lord Frey had essentially put a knife to his throat and forced him to make the agreement (he did this by possibly not allowing Robb' army to cross, despite being a bannerman of Hoster/Edmure Tully who were clearly aligned with Robb). One can argue that a contract made under duress is not a valid contract. Frey was powerful though and it was foolish for Robb to betray him... but then he is human, and he is only a boy. Mistake yes, but understandable, not damning (We see it as damning because we know the outcome which is not fair to judge it on).

I agree with you.

2. In regards to Theon: A) His oldest friend who had fought bravely alongside of him every step of the way, why not trust him (again, we can not blame him just because we know the outcome). B) Disregarding his mother's advice? Like himself, his mother was human, and he knew she did not trust Theon in much the same way that she did not trust and despised Jon Snow. Both of whom were his best friends. It is understandable that he may have seen her council as being bias here (which it later turned out to be in the case of Jon Snow when he mentioned that he was going to make Jon an heir to Catelyn's great disaproval, based solely on her hatred of the boy who wasnt born from her cunt).

Theon was an assett during the war, he should have waited until it was finished. I was shocked when Theon later betrayed Robb, but at the time he let him go, I thought it was a strategic mistake, because he is a skilled fighter and loyal friend.

I also agree with your summary on his legacy. That he was outwitted is understandable due to his youth and Tywins age. If it turns out he was part of a plot of the Westerlings and Tywin to have him eventually murdered, it is understandable. No boy his age could forsee that.