Let's Discuss Rhaegar and Robert's Rebellion

[Drowsey Dragon]

After just completing ASOS and learning more about Rhaegar, especially from the conversations that take place with Daenerys and Barristan the bold, Rhaegar appears to be a very honorable and even heroic character.

The trigger for Roberts rebellion was the abduction of Lady Lyanna and Robert being haunted by her being raped repeatedly by Rhaegar.

My problem is this does not square with how Rhaegar is described. He presented Lady Lyanna with a flower at the tournament at Harenhal ( I think that was the one) is described as different from his insane father, a lover of music and poetry etc. He may have even loved Lady Lyanna.

How do we know he indeed raped her or did her great harm? Have I missed something up to this point? Because Daenerys and Rhaegar seem to be very similar characters - Both honorable and kind hearted and fierce warriors.

Is this simply Roberts paranoia and assumption of what would happen to her being kidnapped against her will? And what if Robert was wrong? What if she secretly loved Rhaegar?

I may be way off here, but there must be more to this key event than meets the eye up to this point at least.

[Pliskin]

Well. At the beginning we knew Rhaegar only from Robert's point of view. But he hated the man. And he hated the Targs.

But there were some hints in AGOT, like "And she loved the blue winter roses" or something like that, from Ned's dreams referring to Lyanna. There are many hints that Lyanna & Rhaegar were actually in love, and that she fled with him.

Plus the fact that she never loved Robert.

And it's directly linked to a theory about one of the important characters of the books. But I don't want to reveal it to you, you may not want to be spoiled. If you're interested, it's a post-it thread, up to its 19th or 20th version.

[Lord Varys]

Daenerys's visions in the House of the Undying back in ACoK may also help cast some light on the issue. But the important thing has already been said: Robert is a rather a unreliable source when it comes to Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the Targaryens. Even Ned indicated as much back in AGoT when he wondered whether Rhaegar ever frequented brothels (and concluded that this was likely not the case).

[Blangadanger]

As much as I absolutely love Ser Barriston and his Joffrey-hating self, one should remember that his view is biased as well, since he served the Targaryens before he served Robert. The reason he says so much about Rhaegar to Dany is because he wants her to be proud of her family's past. From what I've read so far, he seems to be about as honorable as a knight could be, and everyone (well, save Joffrey) has the utmost respect for him, so I'd like to believe everything he says about Rhaegar is true, but I won't accept it as fact just yet. I think he's careful to only admit the good things about the Targaryens' past, unless he's asked to divulge more. I look forward to the Reeds sharing some more light on the situation (hopefully).

[House Balstroko]

Of course each character is bound to be biased. Robert himself was no saint, having tons of bastards, neglecting Cersei, willing to murder children... So I always took his views on Rhaegar with a grain of salt. I think this series tries to show off from the beginning that no one is truly that honourable. Even Ned has a bastard (without going into the debate on Jon) , is willing to execute a man who didn't directly harm him.

The more we read on the more it seems that Rhaegar was a noble prince and most people only really dislike Aerys.

[the seventh direwolf]

I think Robert's views about Rhaegar were very biased because of his infatuation with Lyanna, which is why I'm not willing to believe what he is saying is 100% true. I think there is a possibility that Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar but Robert's obsession with her refused to acknowledge this. Also, her "promise me, Ned" which was a recurring flashback of Ned's seems to bring out a number of possible scenarios, the most popular being that Jon is actually the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It does make sense, because if Robert had found out, he would have had Jon killed so it was better to say that he is Ned's son rather than Lyanna's.

It does seem to me that Rhaegar is different and not the animal that Robert is making him out to be. From the way Ser Barriston describes him, he seems noble, loyal and fierce in battle. Robert is the man who showed delight at Elia and her children's bodies being presented to him when he took the throne, and ordering the death of Dany when he found out she was expecting. Both of these scenarios shocked Ned, but Robert doesn't seem to hesitate when it comes to killing children which makes him worse than Rhaegar in my opinion.

[Jorge Contreras]

Also Rhaeghar seemed to be a very popular with the smallfolk, who saw in him the promise of a good ruler and leader, Robert never was liked by the common people, I think that his rebellion was just a conflict between nobility and the crown, the noblemen used Robert to ensure their privileges and power with a weak king easily controlled by the Lannisters, the Tullyes and the Arrins.

[Drowsey Dragon]

What makes you think Robert was not loved by the common people? Robert was far from an elitist and he drank and whored like a man possessed. He was also a fierce fighter and first to jump into battle, which would earn him respect from the masses.

What I have a hard time dealing with is what Robert allowed to happen to the little dragon children and later wanting to have the dragon queen killed while pregnant. I think so many of us want to view Robert in a noble and heroic way, but he just isnt. No man can be that relishes the murder of innocent children and their mother.

[Jorge Contreras]

I think that the killing of the young Targaryens may have dissapointed many people in the seven Kingdoms, and I don´t think many liked the way Robert acted during his reign, eating and whoring and drinking, but never acting as a King and even ruling.

[The Roaring Bear]

The books always seemed to give off the impression that the "Smallfolk" liked Robert, especially with all of his jousting tournaments and such. I don't think they really cared who sat the throne all that much, because as Jora Mormont said, all they really cared about was food on the table. We only seem to notice mentioning a dislike for Robert after his death when the wars broke out and there wasn't food to be had. It is only then that people longed for the days of the Targaryans because from what they remembered there was food and no war. Also, they did not like Joffrey, but Joffrey is not Robert.

In regards to Rhaegar, the impression that I am getting is that Barristan's mentionings of him seem to be most accurate (especially since if I recall properly, Ned seemed to hold some respect for Rhaegar). Now for Robert, I think he is just a man obsessed when it comes to his view of Rhaegar. I think deep down he knows that Lyanna had feelings for Rhaegar and he is jealous, which is the root of his initial dislike for the man, but he fuels it further by convincing himself that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her (because Robert does have an ego and wouldnt be able to deal with his first love wanting another) so he idealizes what he had with Lyanna and Demonizes Rhaegar because he doesnt want to feel second best. Something along those lines.

[Jorge Contreras]

I agree, the smallfolk likes and support a government that ensures to having food on the table, that was until today in our real world: people get angry with their politics if they dont assure the economic situation to be good, and it seems that the smallfolk in Westeros, completely ignoring the intrigue and political interests of the noble families behind the war, they are worried, angered and frightened for all the chaos and devastation that reigns over all the realm, so, they dislike Robert now because they now think that the new regime was the begining of all the problems an destruction since the Targaryen were dethroned.

So, I think that if Daenerys appears at the coast and promises the restoration of freedom, order and peace, all the smallfolk will line with her and her foreign army to destroy all the noble families: Lannisters, Baratheons, Starks, Tyrells, etc. that are the responsibles of the civil war, the people will see her as a legitimate ruler for Westeros and a guarantee of welfare, instead the lords that have ignited the fires of war, hunger and poverty over all the kingdom-continent.

[Pliskin]

Also Rhaeghar seemed to be a very popular with the smallfolk, who saw in him the promise of a good ruler and leader, Robert never was liked by the common people, I think that his rebellion was just a conflict between nobility and the crown, the noblemen used Robert to ensure their privileges and power with a weak king easily controlled by the Lannisters, the Tullyes and the Arrins.

The smallfolk actually loved Robert. He was young, handsome, a great warrior, and women adored him.

An entire village hid him from Jon Connington, taking great risks.

[WenchofTarth]

Considering the two who would really know what happened are both dead we really can't know for sure what occured. Honestly, I don't know why people are so sure that Lyanna wasn't in fact kidnapped and went willingly. Even is we accept his better nature it doesn't mean he's a saint. It is hardly difficult to be a better person when compared to the Mad King after all.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Considering the two who would really know what happened are both dead we really can't know for sure what occured. Honestly, I don't know why people are so sure that Lyanna wasn't in fact kidnapped and went willingly. Even is we accept his better nature it doesn't mean he's a saint. It is hardly difficult to be a better person when compared to the Mad King after all.

Even if it was consensual, disappearing with the betrothed of one of the realm's Lords Paramount was a pretty bonehead move on his part

[Drowsey Dragon]

Even if it was consensual, disappearing with the betrothed of one of the realm's Lords Paramount was a pretty bonehead move on his part

I disagree. Rhaeghar was the Lord Paramount. He was the heir to the 7 kingdoms and the last dragon. He had little to fear.

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

That's the fun of POV storytelling, each character certainly has his or her own "view" of things.

This is true in 'real life' as well, and is good to keep in mind. Somone else might not 'see' things exactly as you do.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I disagree. Rhaeghar was the Lord Paramount. He was the heir to the 7 kingdoms and the last dragon. He had little to fear.

Dude, at this point the Targaryens had no dragons left. The Stormlands alone could muster 30,000 or so troops, and he could also count on the Northmen coming to look for Lady Stark. He was also spitting in the Martells' face by insulting his actual wife Elia. "The Last Dragon" should have stopped to consider the consequences of his actions, which led to the destruction of his house and a huge civil war.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Dude, at this point the Targaryens had no dragons left. The Stormlands alone could muster 30,000 or so troops, and he could also count on the Northmen coming to look for Lady Stark. He was also spitting in the Martells' face by insulting his actual wife Elia. "The Last Dragon" should have stopped to consider the consequences of his actions, which led to the destruction of his house and a huge civil war.

The Targs had ruled Westeros without dragons for the past 300 years. They were allied with the Lannisters and the houses of the West. His actions would cause a rift with the Martels, but it is doubtful it would lead to war between them. Also there is no way for certain that Rhaeghar knew this would lead to an all out civil war and the destruction of his house by doing what he did. Hindsight is 20-20. Bad leadership and an insane king cost the Targs their thrown, much more than the power of the North and the Stormlands and the knights of the Vale.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Targs had ruled Westeros without dragons for the past 300 years. They were allied with the Lannisters and the houses of the West. His actions would cause a rift with the Martels, but it is doubtful it would lead to war between them. Also there is no way for certain that Rhaeghar knew this would lead to an all out civil war and the destruction of his house by doing what he did. Hindsight is 20-20. Bad leadership and an insane king cost the Targs their thrown, much more than the power of the North and the Stormlands and the knights of the Vale.

Someone a fan of Rhaegar? lol

How were they allied with the Lannisters, again? Aerys had insulted Tywin to the point where Tywin had resigned as Hand of the King and went back to Casterly Rock. And of course it was Lannisters who ended up slaying Aerys and Aegon and Rhaenys. Some "allies" they were

Being Prince doesn't mean you get to do anything you want. It was guaranteed that disappearing with a lady of one of the Great Houses, betrothed to the Lord of another Great House, would cause conflict. Robert makes it clear that he hates Rhaegar for what he did, and that is why he rose up and killed him. Rhaegar was probably a better man that his father, but he shares the guilt for losing the Crown

[Drowsey Dragon]

Someone a fan of Rhaegar? lol

How were they allied with the Lannisters, again? Aerys had insulted Tywin to the point where Tywin had resigned as Hand of the King and went back to Casterly Rock. And of course it was Lannisters who ended up slaying Aerys and Aegon and Rhaenys. Some "allies" they were

Being Prince doesn't mean you get to do anything you want. It was guaranteed that disappearing with a lady of one of the Great Houses, betrothed to the Lord of another Great House, would cause conflict. Robert makes it clear that he hates Rhaegar for what he did, and that is why he rose up and killed him. Rhaegar was probably a better man that his father, but he shares the guilt for losing the Crown

I am not a fan of Rhaegar. I know as much about him as his sister does, which is not much. I am looking at it from an objective point of view. He does share in the blame for the fall of his house, but he could not have known for certain this would be the outcome. Love makes people do irrational things. Regarding house Lannister, yes the mad king and Tywin were estranged at this point, but they were still allies. The Lannisters did not turn on the Targs until after Rhaegar was killed by Robert and it was clear the war was lost. When the war began the mad king was just as strong, if not stronger than Roberts armies. They could have prevailed, but of course they did not.