[ADWD] Lightbringer is the Dragon Horn

[James Smith]

I believe the Nissa Nissa story was a form of Blood Magic. Azor Ahai stabbed Nissa in the heart which spilled her blood and sacrificed her life.

So in order to make another Lightbringer, someone would need to use another form of Blood Magic to forge it.

Daenerys has done this with her Dragons, sacrificing Mirri Maz Duur to hatch them from eggs.

But will Nissa Nissa the blood sacrifice have to be the PTWP most loved or can it be any blood sacrifice?

Also as a side note if the Lightbringer is a sword that already exists would it really need another Nissa Nissa since it is the original it should still work, just a thought.

[7V3N]

But will Nissa Nissa the blood sacrifice have to be the PTWP most loved or can it be any blood sacrifice?

Also as a side note if the Lightbringer is a sword that already exists would it really need another Nissa Nissa since it is the original it should still work, just a thought.

The Nissa Nissa sacrifice is very vague, so it is unknown. I would think (if LB is a sword) that the sacrifice was only to forge the blade, and has no need for repetition.

[Jon Flowers]

I'm not sold on the idea that the horn is Lightbringer, but just to further the conversation; couldn't the death of whoever blows the horn could be seen as analoguous to the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa?

[7V3N]

I'm not sold on the idea that the horn is Lightbringer, but just to further the conversation; couldn't the death of whoever blows the horn could be seen as analoguous to the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa?

That's what I think. The lion did not work, but AA's wife Nissa Nissa did. And it seems that Nissa Nissa made the sacrifice willingly. I think this shows how the one who blows the horn must make the sacrifice willingly. Moqorro tells Victarion that he must become the horn's master. Maybe that means he must become an unquestioned leader so that people will give their lives for him by blowing the horn and therefore binding the dragons to his will.

[Narea]

While I believe R+L=J is the most logical explanation, The only reason that causes me to have doubt is that Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne which gives him the possiblitly of weilding the Sword Dawn and becoming the Sword of the Morning as the sword goes to thre most worthy of it. The Sword is said to be made from a falling star which could be a metaphor for Nissa Nissa his wife. Dawn in general and the morning brings light to the world thus being a lightbringer

While I belive this to be one possibilty that I do not rule out, I agree with Apple Martini that Lightbringer is most likely the night's Watch.

The sword Dawn is the most famous Westerosi made sword because it is a known fact that it is made of a stone of a fallen star. The Daynes called their caste Starfall (for the star that fell near it). Also, the meteorite from which it was made fell approximately two thousand years ago, so the Dawn would be much too new a sword to be the Lightbringer.

Also I like the Nights Watch theory, except that R'hollor and the great Other have supposedly been in an eternal struggle of good vs evil since the beginning of time. Which means that the long night was probably one of many. Who fought the Others before AA ? The first men? The Andals? Or the children of the forest? Was the Battle for the Dawn conclusive? Is the next big battle with the Others gonna be the definitive fight where winner takes all and the losers cease to exist for the end of time?

You are taking the eternal struggle too literally.

The eternal struggle of R'hllor against the Great Other is most likely metaphorical and means cycle of changing of day/night (light/darkness) which has been going on since the beginning of time. R'hllor's followers treat each new dawn as a victory of R'hllor over darkness and each day at sunset they pray for that victory, for another dawn.

But yes, it would seem that if this Battle for the Dawn is lost, humans will be most likely completely eliminated as a vast majority is totaly unaware of there being a threat.

But will Nissa Nissa the blood sacrifice have to be the PTWP most loved or can it be any blood sacrifice?

The Prince That Was Promised (tPTWP) and Azor Ahai (AA) are two different prophecies. First relates to waking dragons and is a Targaryen (Valyrian ?) prophecy - likely originating from their dragon dreams, while the second is a prophecy from Asshai concerning the Battle for the Dawn.

But if we go with the NW being the Lightbringer, then Jon as its current LC would be its wielder. Let's not forget that Jon made quite recent changes to the NW (reforged it ?) and even before he became the LC, he tempered it by blood of his love (by sacrificing Ygritte for survival of the NW- even if he wasn't the one to kill her).

[mike446]

Do we know for sure how long the greatsword ice has been in possesion of house Stark? If I'm not mistaken its reforged into two swords.

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

The sword Dawn is the most famous Westerosi made sword because it is a known fact that it is made of a stone of a fallen star. The Daynes called their caste Starfall (for the star that fell near it). Also, the meteorite from which it was made fell approximately two thousand years ago, so the Dawn would be much too new a sword to be the Lightbringer.

You are taking the eternal struggle too literally.

The eternal struggle of R'hllor against the Great Other is most likely metaphorical and means cycle of changing of day/night (light/darkness) which has been going on since the beginning of time. R'hllor's followers treat each new dawn as a victory of R'hllor over darkness and each day at sunset they pray for that victory, for another dawn.

But yes, it would seem that if this Battle for the Dawn is lost, humans will be most likely completely eliminated as a vast majority is totaly unaware of there being a threat.

The Prince That Was Promised (tPTWP) and Azor Ahai (AA) are two different prophecies. First relates to waking dragons and is a Targaryen (Valyrian ?) prophecy - likely originating from their dragon dreams, while the second is a prophecy from Asshai concerning the Battle for the Dawn.

But if we go with the NW being the Lightbringer, then Jon as its current LC would be its wielder. Let's not forget that Jon made quite recent changes to the NW (reforged it ?) and even before he became the LC, he tempered it by blood of his love (by sacrificing Ygritte for survival of the NW- even if he wasn't the one to kill her).

I like this idea that TPTWP is the Valyrian/Essos prophecy and that Azor Azhai is the Westeros prophecy, because you hear them the opposite way in the story, but really TPTWP refers to Dany and AA refers to...

Sidenote, do we know in the story who now wields Dawn? Is it just sitting at Starfall

And on the main topic, I don't think any Horns are Lightbringer. I think that the Horns legit bind dragons, there never was a Horn of Winter (Jon found a horn at the Fist? missed that completely) and that Lightbringer is just a metaphor for some kind of sacrifice to love.

[7V3N]

While re-reading GoT and the R+L stuff, I thought this: What if Rhaegar was AA reborn (as he thought), but Jon Lightbringer himself? He is the sword in the darkness as LC of the Watch.

Haven't looked into this so it could be easily disproved.

[EgoistMusketeer]

In SOS Thoros become powerful enough to where he could cut his hand, pour blood on his sword and it would ignite. Some Jon Snow blood on a Valyrian blade could be like a turbo charged effect and bring forward lightbringer. It could just be as simple as that.

As for Euron's gigantic horn, its not going to bind anything because whomever blows it is charred from the inside out.

But from this fact we can also infer that the Targareans were so successful because of their fire immunity. Aegon the conqueror and his sisters could bind their dragons without being killed.

Maybe young griff has inherited the traits as well and will bind one of her dragons?

The PTWP is some descendant of Aerys (from eggs prophecy) but with the information weve been given its a toss up between Dany, Aegon, and Jon.

[7V3N]

That was just Thoros using magic (which is always in the form of blood magic if you looks closely).

[Ser Kevan of Stone Hedge]

Why would a horn from Valyria have any connection with the Wall in Westeros?

I subsrcibe to the theory that the broken horn Jon found buried at the Fist of the First Men is the Horn of Joramun. Makes much more sense.

He is...the one.

[EgoistMusketeer]

That was just Thoros using magic (which is always in the form of blood magic if you looks closely).

Right, but whose to say that when AA reborn with his kingsblood uses the same blood magic it doesnt bring forth lightbringer? The Nissa Nissa story is blood magic, after all.

[Été]

We need a Last Hero, a PTWP and an AAR for our apocalyptic dream team; the LH is probably a Stark, the PTWP is probably at least part-Targ, so I'd rather like it if AAR turned out to be some absolute wildcard from a different faction. With that in mind, it would be cheesy as hell, but bear with me - what if Oathkeeper became Lightbringer? Instead of needing actual tempering as it's being reforged, it might just be used to spill the blood of someone/thing connected with water (UnCat or a Frey?), a lion (a Lannister), and whoever AAR's Nissa Nissa happens to be. Long shot, but it would be fun!

A metaphorical Lightbringer - whether dragon or army - does seems more likely than a proper old-fashioned magic sword, but I think the horn would be stretching the wording somewhat. And it'd be a waste of a good origin story.

[Patrick Durden]

Wow there are two great theories being presented here. The night's watch one is pretty cool but I find the horn being the sword a lot more literally similar. Or maybe there isn't only one THE lightbringer but instead a ritual to create A lightbringer. Dany being reborn in the fire created her dragons. Jon being revived by Melisandre with someone's sacrifice would be another. Maybe the only thing required to create a lightbringr i.e a weapon that can destroy the Others is anything which was born from the blood sacrifice of others?

[Dragonbinder]

The Night's Watch.

The guy who "wields" Lightbringer is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

To sum it up in incredibly brief terms:

The water: The ice from which the Wall is made

The lion: Symbolic of Night's Watch men holding no lands, titles or worldly "pride"

Nissa Nissa: The oath to take no wives

When Sam goes through the Nightfort — the oldest castle on the Wall, which is important — he only says a partial version of the Night's Watch vow. This is the vow he says to open the Black Gate.

Spot the differences, and what was left out? The Black Gate opens for Sam, implying that this version of the vows is sufficient for him to prove he's a Night's Watch man and go through the gate. There's an idea that this is actually the original vow (spoken at the original castle, that's why the castle's age is important) and that the parts about holding no lands, titles or glory and taking no wife were added later, which would fit with the idea that the Night's Watch has been "tempered"/altered/adapted from its original iterations.

The story of the Night's Watch defeating the Others in the Battle for the Dawn spread over to Asshai in the world's biggest game of telephone, and the red priests altered it, put their own cultural spin on it (i.e. Azor Ahai giving up his wife became him running a sword through her) and spat back out the prophecy about a guy with a flaming sword. The Azor Ahai prophecy is really just a different take on a Westerosi legend coming full circle.

That's my theory. :)

I love this theory. You are a genius. I think you're actually right ! :P

[Baron Fell]

its been a while since i read the books but could it be the reforged ice, doesnt it say something about red on black and thrust into a lions heart, jamie and brien might be fighting to the death in the next book or not

[Narea]

I don't know about reforging the Ice...it was a very big sword, it would take both the Oathkeeper and the Widow's Wail to get it back to its original size and even then the resulting sword would be completely different from the original. And not only in colour.

The only reference to the colour of the Lightbringer is, that it is the Red Sword of Heroes. Funnily enough, if it was supposed to be in red-on-black colour scheme, there is a certain House with such heraldry, which then could point to a link between AAR and tPTWP. (But it isn't and it doesn't.)

Also...why do people take those sacrifices in forging the Lightbringer so literally ? If the original AA founded the Night's Watch (which we know has been essential in winning the first Battle for the Dawn), then those attempts at forging the LB, could very well be his first attempts to build the NW. First, he could try to assemble it from just any people that he could, but this force turned out to be too weak to resist and as such "broke". Then he was more careful in picking the men for the NW, he would only take those, who were courageous, strong etc (btw, did you know that lions are primarily nocturnal animals and they prefer to hunt at night ?). And in his last (and finally successful) attempt he took men, who were willing to sacrifice their personal freedoms ( taking wives, having lands, ...) and their lives for others.

At least that's what I think it could mean...

[uriel]

Lightbringer, the flaming sword of Azor Ahai, is told to be the sword that can defeat the Great Other. But is it really a sword? I have a theory that the "sword" is metaphorical, as is the whole prophecy of the Prince Who Was Promised.

Euron Crow's Eye supposedly got his dragon horn from the flames of Valyria in the remnants of the Doom.

Woke the giants may not be actual giants, it could be dragons. And "woke" may simply mean a summons, not some sort of birth or awakening. Also, it could bring down the Wall, not will or would. The uncertainty suggests more variables. If the Horn is used to control dragons, it is then up to the master to command the dragons to, say, burn the Wall down. I believe this is the same Horn owned by Euron.

I take this to mean (whether AA did this or not) that it requires human sacrifice, and that no animal/creature may be replaced. Remember that the blower of Euron's Valyrian Horn must die.

I know this is a stretch, but radiated heat could refer to some sort of radiation which is why the blower's insides eventually burn to ash. Also, the Valyrian glyphs do seem to "shine" in a way that draws the eyes, proven by Victarion's recollection to Moqorro.

I know that there are some unfavorable consequences of this theory, like Euron being AA reborn. But you never know what is to come, such as the Horn being "redrawn" from flames in some way to show a new PWWP. Also, I am aware that I am not an expert on GRRM's world and that there are likely things I have missed that contradict this theory (as all theory's have contradictions), so this is meant to be more thought provoking than rhetorical.

I admit, I like the NW=LB theory so much I believe it to be true...but this has some interesting points to it as well; that the horn radiates heat, it glows, and it requires a sacrifice to wield it. I would love to see Danny get her hands on it, especially since I see her dragons being less and less dependent upon her, and more willful (especially Drogon). There may come a time when she needs it, and she's the only person I can see using it without dying.

Plus...who knows what happened to LB after all these years? It could have been taken back to Valyria, where it was found by Euron.

The Night's Watch.

To sum it up in incredibly brief terms:

The water: The ice from which the Wall is made

The lion: Symbolic of Night's Watch men holding no lands, titles or worldly "pride"

Nissa Nissa: The oath to take no wives

When Sam goes through the Nightfort — the oldest castle on the Wall, which is important — he only says a partial version of the Night's Watch vow. This is the vow he says to open the Black Gate.

Spot the differences, and what was left out? The Black Gate opens for Sam, implying that this version of the vows is sufficient for him to prove he's a Night's Watch man and go through the gate. There's an idea that this is actually the original vow (spoken at the original castle, that's why the castle's age is important) and that the parts about holding no lands, titles or glory and taking no wife were added later, which would fit with the idea that the Night's Watch has been "tempered"/altered/adapted from its original iterations.

The story of the Night's Watch defeating the Others in the Battle for the Dawn spread over to Asshai in the world's biggest game of telephone, and the red priests altered it, put their own cultural spin on it (i.e. Azor Ahai giving up his wife became him running a sword through her) and spat back out the prophecy about a guy with a flaming sword. The Azor Ahai prophecy is really just a different take on a Westerosi legend coming full circle.

That's my theory. :)

:bowdown: My mind = BLOWN! This by far my favorite theory! *Crosses fingers* Please let this be true!

While re-reading GoT and the R+L stuff, I thought this: What if Rhaegar was AA reborn (as he thought), but Jon Lightbringer himself? He is the sword in the darkness as LC of the Watch.

Another possibility I like, though I can't connect all the dots with it. I guess the sacrifice would have been Lyanna (if you believe L+R=J) lying in her bed of blood (blood sacrifice). I haven't finished ADWD yet so I haven't come to the part about water, but could it refer to the "water" in Lyanna's womb? Just throwing stuff out there. :)

But if we go with the NW being the Lightbringer, then Jon as its current LC would be its wielder. Let's not forget that Jon made quite recent changes to the NW (reforged it ?) and even before he became the LC, he tempered it by blood of his love (by sacrificing Ygritte for survival of the NW- even if he wasn't the one to kill her).

Score another one for the NW=LB theory! Nice catch. :)

[famouskenneth]

if i remember correctly, lightbringer, was forged for 100 days and a hundred nights, and then he killed his wife with it.

so if this theory is correctly, i would guess that, the days Jon Snow spent in the watch, resembled the 100 days and the hundred nights that the sword needed smithing, and the killing of Ygritte resembled the killing of the wife.

[NitzanLeo]

This is quite an interesting theory. Instead of two horns, there might just be one. Perhaps the Horn of Winter Mance found is a fake, and the Dragonbinder horn is actually the Horn of Jorammun. Perhaps the first time AA tries to temper the sword in water is a parallel to Victarion having his thralls blow the horn in the sea. Perhaps the second time it is blown it will be blown by Tyrion (I'd hate that, but bare with me), being a lion--a Lannister. The third blow might be blown by Dany, being a Nissa Nissa, not AA, guessing that maybe Jon is AA, or the much-disbelieved theory that Victarion is AA. This is a good thought, nice catch.