Does Roose Bolton even care?

[Cat Stark]

Something that strikes me as weird, is Roose Bolton's attitude and actions.

By planning and attending the Red Wedding, he pretty much makes himself, his House and his name hated by every Northener.

His only heir is a sadistic psychopath and even when he marries Fat Walda, he doesn't consider getting rid of Ramsey, he just comments "Walda will be sad when the kids die..."(quoted by memory).

He doesn't seem very upset that his bastard probably killed his trueborn son(that's how I read it). He has placed himself in a castle(Winterfell), with Freys and Manderlies, who hate each other and his only ally is Lady Dustin, whom I very much think hates Roose for not dealing with Ramsey after Domeric dies.

Does that not seem weird and slightly suicidal to you?

He finally has a chance of getting a proper heir through Fat Walda but writes it off.

One thing is to not give a damn about yourself, but what about his name and his House? Ramsey will drag both things through the mud and probably get himself killed in the process...

I just don't get it...?

When did he give up? And did he ever care?

[Lady of Long Lake]

I don't know, Cat! I've wondered too about his indifference. Some people on the forums have said he's a true sociopath.

I wonder if Roose's lifelong goal was to accomplish what his ancestors could not- overthrowing the Starks and taking the leadership of Winterfell. They tried for 11,000 years to kill off the Starks and he accomplished what no other Bolton has. Maybe nothing in his life matters to him but being Warden of the North?

[MtnLion]

He does insist that the leeches drain the bad blood from him. Basically he equates having emotions as bad blood, when speaking of others and leechings.

[Miriel]

I'm not sure he does not care about Fat Walda and any heirs not surviving him, or about Ramsay killing Domeric. He said he did not care, but that was in front of Theon. He might have assumed Theon would tell Ramsay. If that tis the case, his indifference may be feigned.

I think he is seriously considering how best to get rid of Ramsay. As soon as he has wrung all possible usefulness out of him. And indirectly of course. Roose is too carful to get himself labelled a kinslayer.

And the Freys are not likely to turn on him. He is the only thing keeping the other Northmen from killing them.

[Chelly]

Good point, it seems he hasn't really thought things through. I do believe he is a true sociopath, Ramsay got it from somewhere, right? :dunno: I think he just enjoys the power and is looking to cause some destruction.

[Ser Hippie]

I think he actually did care about Ramsay killing Domeric (who he seemed pretty fond of, relatively speaking), but also realized he needed an heir. Maybe he also realized he could use Ramsay for his own schemes even then.

[jarl the climber]

The only thing Roose cares about is Roose. I think he has some sort of suprise in store for us.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Remember that he says this to Theon, knowing that it will get back to Ramsay.

[Chise]

I'm pretty sure he does care, he's just very tight about showing too much emotion. Wouldn't wanna let anyone IN on how much certain things bother him, ya know? So it can't be turned on him....

Red Wedding - he evaluated his options and chose the winning side. Which just happened to be Lannister at the time. Which brought him more power than he could have gotten under the Stark kid

Ramsay - oh he's gonna make sure he gets his. In a way that can't be traced to the source of course. Nobody as cursed as a kinslayer after all

[Cat Stark]

Hearing all your replies, it made me think. If he actually does care, about Domeric that is, he could be playing a long con on Ramsey. Make the bastard believe he stands a chance to inherit the Bolton lands, then rip it all away under his feet and kill him in the process. If Domeric couldn't have the lands, no one could.

By joining the Red Wedding, he made Ramsey legit and made everyone hate the Boltons... If Roose doesn't care about himself or anything anymore, this is only going to hit Ramsey. Let's just hope he's around to see Ramsey fall :)

[jmastar]

Roose is a redic boss... Its pretty clear he cares about things.... And I believe once he has a legit kid again he will destory Ramsey in a very very epic way...Think the Theon info feed is to give Ramsey the go ahead to try to slaughter the kids and Roose will use it to publicly denounce that pile of trash... ROOSE FOR KING !!!!!!!!!

[Kurhill]

What we learn from Lady Dustin -

“Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North? Tywin Lannister is dead, the Kingslayer is maimed, the Imp is fled. The Lannisters are a spent force, and you were kind enough to rid him of the Starks. Old Walder Frey will not object to his fat little Walda becoming a queen. White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?”

“Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North? Tywin Lannister is dead, the Kingslayer is maimed, the Imp is fled. The Lannisters are a spent force, and you were kind enough to rid him of the Starks. Old Walder Frey will not object to his fat little Walda becoming a queen. White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?”

It's pretty clear he cares. His plan is to become the King of the North after killing Stannis. In order to crown himself most of the Houses loyal to Starks have to severly bleed - weakend they will support Roose or be exterminated (at best replaced by different branches of the family, which was the case with Karstarks). Roose as a king can also create new, loyal Houses (House Steelshanks anybody?).

Roose also mentions that he has further plans for Theon - most likely wants to crown him as the (puppet) king of Iron Islands.

[alienarea]

Maybe Roose is TGO or at least in league with him? And he doesn't get leechings at all? Overthrowing the Starks, because their always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell?

[Dohogerse]

Roose definitely have somehing up his sleave, and Im sure he wont let Ramsay off that easy, I also think they might end up killing each other. BTW what or who is TGO?

[Cat Stark]

Roose definitely have somehing up his sleave, and Im sure he wont let Ramsay off that easy, I also think they might end up killing each other. BTW what or who is TGO?

The Great Other, I think

Yeah, If I was Roose I'd want to kill the bastard myself, but if he won't do kinslaying, all he has to do is create the circumstances that make people want to kill Ramsey

[BreastplateWithNipples]

As for why Roose was so non-caring about Domeric and about Walda's future heirs:

He mentioned that boy-kings were a terrible thing, and I took this to mean that he does not want to have an underage heir when he dies.

Roose had a trueborn son in Domeric (who would be of age by now) and a bastard-born one in Ramsay, but Ramsay killed Domeric and now Ramsay is all he has. Roose doesn't begrudge Ramsay the murder of Domeric because it's what he would have done in his place. So at this point, Roose accepts that he has to stick with Ramsay as his heir. Roose might not mind having more children alongside with Ramsay, but he knows Ramsay will have them killed and this, too, Roose does not condemn because he sees Ramsay's reasons.

Had Roose known beforehand that Ramsay was going to kill Domeric, he might have stopped it. But he did not know, and he saw no point in punishing Ramsay after the deed was done. Now, Roose knows beforehand that Ramsay is going to try to kill any sons Roose has from Walda, but here again he does not see the point in stopping him, because disinheriting Ramsay would leave House Bolton with an infant ruler should Roose die.

The only thing that annoys Roose about his son Ramsay is Ramsay's wanton cruelty. He tells him to take the Bolton motto to his heart ("A quiet land, a peaceful people") which means he wants Ramsay to restrain from the most repelling hobbies. Other than that he doesn't demand anything from Ramsay.

My impression is that Roose is not as passionate about his own house as other nobles are. He knows that he has a poor heir in Ramsay, but he does not let this disturb his peace of mind. He's probably thinking "Ramsay is not like me, but he has cunning and he will rise to the occasion once he inherits. If not, oh well, at least I tried."

[wyman's cook]

He did show some genuine interest on boots craftmanship ;)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Well he cares enough to send Robb Jaime Lannister's regards

[Dohogerse]

The Great Other, I think

Yeah, If I was Roose I'd want to kill the bastard myself, but if he won't do kinslaying, all he has to do is create the circumstances that make people want to kill Ramsey

Not much creating, Ramsay is feared and despised by many. Would be an easy job, he just has to light the match.

Spoiler

II should search on The Great Other theory., but perhapss that could end up being Jon Snow govem his current state of affairs.

[tze]

Well . . . the North Remembers. This gets repeated on and on for the other Lords of the North, so why not Roose Bolton as well? I'm genuinely starting to wonder if everything Roose has done hasn't been driven by greed for power, but rather, has all been part of a plan for revenge against Ramsay. Ramsay murdered Domeric, Roose's son and heir and the great hope of House Bolton. And the lords of the North don't just forget things like that. Roose would have Theon (and by extension, Ramsay) believe that Roose won't seek vengeance here, that Roose actually wants to reward, ennoble, and enrich Ramsay. (And he'd have the Lannisters and Freys believe that his fellow Lords of the North have been dealt with and they can rest easy.)

But maybe Roose isn't stupid enough to think House Bolton could actually benefit from betraying the Starks. He seems strangely unconcerned by the glaringly obvious fact that pretty much everyone in the North is just waiting to attack him, and he feels no need to do anything to find the two male Starks hanging out somewhere in the North, putting his House's future power in jeopardy. Perhaps everything Roose has done since ACOK has actually been part of his scheme for revenge against Ramsay for Domeric's murder? Perhaps he's perfectly willing to sacrifice his own life and the future of his House in order to avenge Domeric's murder?

If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. The more you have, the more you have to lose; a lord's (or a King's) fall is longer and harder than a peasant's fall. When Ramsay murdered Domeric, Roose could have just had Ramsay killed. If he just wanted to avoid being a kinslayer, he could have turned Ramsay over to Ned Stark for punishment/execution. But that's only if all he wanted was Ramsay's life. And that's if he felt such an action truly avenged Domeric. At that point, Ramsay was nothing. A lowly bastard, no power, no status, no wealth, no lands, just a little mill with his mother and Reek. So what does Roose do? He puts Ramsay on the path to power. He takes him in at the Dreadfort, gives him servants, prestige. He gives Ramsay Roose's sworn men, and Ramsay uses what Roose has given him to take the Hornwood and sack Winterfell. And Roose marries Walda before he gets Ramsay legitimized---if all he needed was an heir, why get Ramsay legitimized at all, given that new half-Frey heirs were pretty certain? Why get an order of legitimization from the Iron Throne, also known as that institution that his fellow Lords of the North no longer respect (and whose decrees won't be considered binding by the Umbers, Manderlys, Mormonts, etc.)? Perhaps Roose really did think a savage fool was a better heir than a child. Or perhaps making Ramsay think he's no longer considered a bastard is simply part of Roose's plan to build Ramsay up before tearing him down.

And originally, all Ramsay could possibly hope to have had was the Dreadfort and the Hornwood. By betraying Robb Stark, Roose can pretend that Ramsay is now in a position to one day hold the entire North. And the more Ramsay thinks he can have, the more he has to lose. One day, Ramsay will now legitimately be considered a true Bolton and will control the Dreadfort, the Hornwood, and Winterfell. One day, Ramsay will be Warden of the North. Or if Roose declares himself King, then one day Ramsay will one day be King in the North. Ramsay now thinks everything he's ever wanted is within his grasp. All he has to do is wait for an opportune moment to do away with Roose, and Ramsay's dreams will all come true.

But Roose isn't stupid. I think he knew all along that the North would never bow to the Boltons. And he definitely knows the North will never bow to Ramsay. Ramsay is stupid, foolish, and vicious. He wouldn't last a day without Roose's support, and Roose knows that. But if Roose's true goal is revenge against Ramsay, then the whole point might be that Ramsay has no idea the North won't bow to a Bolton, let alone him, and Ramsay has no idea he doesn't have the skills or status to achieve what he wants. Once, Ramsay thought he'd be stuck as a lowly bastard at his mother's mill. Now, as a result of Roose's actions, Ramsay thinks he can have power over the entire North, possibly even one day becoming King in the North (if Theon actually had told Ramsay about Roose's little plan there, and funneling info to Ramsay seems like the most logical reason for Roose's musings to Theon there). Ramsay thinks he can have ultimate wealth, power, and status---that he can escape being born a bastard, that he can have the kind of power and prestige that even Domeric could never have had.

And that's the key. By dangling all of this in front of Ramsay, Roose ensures that Ramsay's inevitable destruction will be far more crushing, far more absolute, then if he'd just arranged a hanging at Ramsay's mother's mill years ago. Now, Roose can destroy more than Ramsay's life---he can obliterate all of Ramsay's hopes, dreams, and pride. By giving him everything, Roose can ensure that Ramsay now loses everything. Roose has put Ramsay in Winterfell, surrounded him by enemies on all sides, given him no actual means of defeating any of them . . . and Roose is now standing off to the side, giving him just as much rope as he needs to hang himself.

If we analyze Roose's actions in terms of personal greed, I think there are plenty of inconsistencies. Roose would have to be delusional about what he can accomplish in the North and what value Ramsay actually gives House Bolton, to justify Roose's actions as having been taken to genuinely benefit Roose and House Bolton. But if we analyze Roose's actions in terms of revenge for Domeric, I think Roose's actions suddenly make a lot more sense. Why he's unconcerned about Manderly's betrayal. Why he takes no steps to locate the Stark boys. Why he insists on a wedding in Winterfell, a place with a habit of swallowing pretenders to Stark power whole. Why he has Ramsay legitimized when he knows Ramsay has no hope of ever truly succeeding him. I think Roose isn't trying to build up House Bolton, he's sacrificing it, all to avenge Domeric.